Do most married men tell the same stories to the OW?

[Ormiriathomimus]

I am still in the stage of obsessively googling and reading about affairs since the discovery of DH's affair. It will pass but at the moment it's like peeling a scab Painful but satisfying.

I have found some OW forums - and once i managed to stop frothing at the mouth at some of the things I read, I realised that most of them had been told 'my wife doesn't understand me/want sex/love me/ talk to me' etc etc and 'I'm only staying because I don't want to hurt her/hurt my kids' blah blah de blah! And what is more so many of the posters appeared to have swallowed the stories hook, line and sinker.

This has the knock on effect of making the OW angry and frustrated when the man chooses to go back to/not leave his wife - why would he when shes so fat/stupid/bad-tempered etc and I'm so much better?

Are there really so many unsatisfactory, hopeless marriages out there and awful wives? IME there aren't. There are marriages (most of them) that aren't perfect, but most of them have very happy times too. I only know of one without any saving graces (and she's scared to leave).

In which case why do so many OW fall for it?

Concerned, I also agree about the detrimental effects you described that divorce and remarriage has on the children of the first marriage. I would particularly hate my children to become a spare wheel in their father's new family. I would move heaven and earth to avoid my dcs ever being in that situation. If I divorced (because my dh decided to leave), I would seriously consider whether I would want to have a child with another man whilst they are still at home.

My parents were unhappily married and my father had affairs. I would add that as dcs, we were spared the drama because my father dealt with it by staying out of the house a lot. I am very grateful they stayed together for us even though I know my dm was very sad and my df disappointed in his marriage. After almost 50 years, they are still together so they must have made their peace

My father always told my mother that he would never leave her, despite his affairs. He accepted he could not stop her if she wanted to divorce him but it would not be his choice. It does not excuse his affairs, but it gave my mother and me comfort that our comfortable domestic circumstances would not change for the worse.

Me and my siblings are now all happily married. So living in my parents' house did not damage us permanently. I for one took time and care to choose my life partner and the person I would have dcs with.

blue

If the affair is exposed, the choice of whether the marriage should continue or not should be firmly in the hands of the faithful spouse

I completely agree with this. But this is also something that can be agreed on between the married couple before anyone cheats (if they do at all).

I don't understand people who say that a spouse who wants to stray should end the marriage first

It depends on the individual's wishes.

Those who say they would not want to end the marriage if their partner cheated on them would probably not want to be told.

Those who say they would not want to continue a relationship with a cheating partner would want to be told.

So if your partner knows your feelings, then they should respect them.

My dh knows how I feel and he knows that if he chose to cheat he would be ending our marriage. And, in fact, if he wants to be with someone else, that's fine with me but he can't have me as well. I wouldn't want a man on those terms, I would rather be alone. He knows this.

I wonder how many partners know that their wives would accept them having affairs? If your partner said to you today 'If I cheated on you would you leave me?' what would your answer be?

I for one took time and care to choose my life partner and the person I would have dcs with

Me too blue and that may be where the answer lies, to really know someone, their morals and beliefs, etc. to see if you are compatible enough to be in it for the long run and have a happy marriage.

Fairenuff Sat 25-Aug-12 10:10:46
...that may be where the answer lies, to really know someone, their morals and beliefs, etc. to see if you are compatible enough to be in it for the long run and have a happy marriage.

I'm a bit puzzled by that.
Is it our contention that people marry not thinking they will be in it for the long run, or that they marry people who the think they don't know

Is it our contention that people marry not thinking they will be in it for the long run, or that they marry people who the think they don't know

Well, when you say 'our' . . .

I can't speak for anyone else but for me, from what I have read here on mn and from the people I know in rl, there do seem to be a lot of couples who don't have those sorts of conversations before they marry.

Some can't even agree on the basics like how many children they want, whether they want their dcs baptised or brought up in a certain faith. Some just can't get along with inlaws, etc. Some are not sexually compatible.

Lots of people seem to want to change their partner after they marry.

And some people don't know their partner's view on fidelity.

I think getting all those sorts of things agreed on before you commit gives your marriage, or long term relationship, a much better chance of being fulfilling for both of you.

Thanks, Fairenuff.

Sexually compatible is a bit hard before marriage if you are religious, not a problem for XW and I. We'd done all the discussions etc, and my views on fidelity were as you suggested.

As you also say, after marriage XW wanted to change me, and made me very unhappy. I lacked the balls to walk out on wife and kids, and - wrongly - had an affair; which I ended.

I then realised how miserable I was, and left. Discussions before marriage, and agreement before marriage didn't count, as far as XW was concerned...

OMC, NOW we are getting to it...

how did XW try to change you?

My H said: you were always criticising me (wheras of course OW told him how wonderful he was).

I would be grateful for your reply.

I think I get this. X2 wanted me to change him. He said so. Like a fool, I took this challenge on (my mistake) and, of course, he resented me for not loving him exactly as he was nobody could. The other part of this is that he hurt me deliberately and, as he knew that insecurity was a weak point of mine, used other women to 'poke' me.

I know this thread isn't really about sociopaths like him. But aren't the most hurtful cheaters all behaving somewhat sociopathically? Surely genuinely nice, honest people go home and say "We've got a problem. I snogged Helen at the awards dinner. I like her. What shall we do?"

Am I being hopelessly naive? Genuine question.

Abitwobblynow Sat 25-Aug-12 13:40:59
how did XW try to change you?
I would be grateful for your reply.

largely, to separate me from my family; to leave work that sometimes I enjoyed as a salaried employee, to work that would have meant me working for her family.

To spend time solely with her friends - and not mine.

We shared house and child-care equally - but I was never allowed to use her car - the only one. "as she might need it". So, she walked to work, I took the bus; which meant I arrived later at work, so I had to finish later... so she would go to her folks.

She wanted us to move into a house that the family provided; she fell out with friends/family and would expect me not to talk to them to...

I no longer dressed right; I was issued instructions as to what I would do. She also withdrew from me completely as far as intimacy went - never mind sex itself. She cheapened it by sometimes saying things like, "Oh, you've done well at x; you can have it tonight." which of course, is a real killer.

If I ever masturbated it was disgusting - "go and do that in the toilet".

Before our marriage we lived in the house I paid for, I worked at the job I'd got when she met me, I spoke to who I liked, saw my family regularly, dressed as I always had [I'll add I was neither a fashion model nor a slob]. She also used to speak to me; hold my hand, cuddle me and yes, sleep with me.

I met and had an affair with someone who liked me; wanted to be intimate with me. I missed the intimacy. I felt guilty and ended the affair. Back in my marriage, whatever I did I couldn't get back to what we used to have - or any semblance of it, and despite my children couldn't stand being in a relationship where I remembered what I was missing. I left.

Not naive imo. I think you have illustrated the big difference there.

Thanks, math :)

OMC - She was a classic abuser, wasn't she :( When a female mumsnetter posts that she's being abused at home and has started an affair, she's cautiously advised to benefit from the confidence granted by the affair, so as to end the marriage. That's what you did. I've got to say you were either extremely lucky or have amazingly sound judgement; it's far from given that an exit affair will turn out well. Glad it did for you.

Wow OMC that sounds awful.

I asked, because what he says is endless criticism was me trying to raise issues and him resisting to the death taking anything on board:

driving bumper to bumper and speeding (even after being pulled over by the police, and rear ending. He will not learn).
us never going out
him ignoring me after the kids were born
his pathological shyness being a problem and making people uncomfortable so I couldn't make friends
resisting any advice on whatever topic.
none of my ideas ever being good. Like buying houses when we could.

I started out gently and and supportively but got louder and more aggressive the more I was pushed away. I so wish I hadn't been so angry, but I was banging on his brick walls whilst he told me how horrible I was, until I eventually gave up. Then he had an affair because I 'didn't care about him'.

The real solution was to have run when I met his mother. And listened to a therapist who told me not to marry him, that he would make me very unhappy.

Abitwobblynow Sat 25-Aug-12 20:57:33
Wow OMC that sounds awful.

Well, cynically, it would do, as it's me telling it.

I'm sorry he was so awful to you, and wouldn't engage properly. That's what really hurt me with XW [that and her using the kids to cry and get at me when we separated].

If many of us "knew then what we know now", I'm sure there would be a lot more happiness. May I wish you luck for the future? I'm certainly happy now.

wow OMC, she sounds like my x. the value, discard thing. I was not allowed to do anything that didn't make my x's life easier really.

my x was also nice to me and generous and 'allowed' me to see my family and friends, and then when i had my first child things got worse,because I was dependent on him. He really became a nightmare then. I didn't cheat but i used to lie in bed at nigth hoping he'd die (is that worse or better than cheating!?) and missing (literally missing) a made up person in my head who would be good humoured, kind, thoughtful, affectionate....

Olympia, why is the birth of the first child such a catalyst? It is like some split happens in their heads. Or may be, when we first notice it.

Is it our lack of power, as simple as that?! When I had my own salary and could have left with savings in the bank knowing a salary would go in on the last thursday of the month, he treated me well. Although he did persuade me to forcefully to give up work. It would have been tricky but only because he wasn't prepared to help. I know on one level I knew I was backing myself into a corner giving up work, so already things weren't right. But as soon as I had a baby in his eyes I 'couldn't leave' so he felt free to control me and verbally and financially abuse me from that point on really. It's much harder to bully somebody who has options and choices.

You wonder why men tell OW that their marriage "isn't good", but that they are just staying "for the kids" or because "the poor wife is 'ill' and wouldn't cope"?

Because they want to have their cake and eat it: staying conveniently married, but with OW on the side. This approach gives OW something to clutch onto and hang in there for years (if they are weak).

Why do OW fall for this?

Because they love the man and want to continue the affair and would accept any condition to be with that man (if they are weak).

I had an affair with an ex-boyfried of mine once, while he was with a new girlfriend. I gave him an ultimatum after 2 months' affair though "It is either me or her". He gave me a whole load of "this is so painful, i don't know what to do" stuff. So I just dropped him. I am so glad I saved myself the trouble.

Then later I had a fling with someone from abroad (who had a girlfriend overseas, which of course he only told me after it was too late). He also gave me this "i cannot split up with her right now, she is depressed. Her Mum is so sick". Well, i ended things quite quickly as well.

I do see the men as the weakest link here though: insecure, needy for female attention and weak.

OW can be quite clingy and persistent though, judging from what I hear about some affairs going on for years. Can't get my head around it. It is so much heartache for everyone. It is sick.

MrsBingo Sun 26-Aug-12 16:36:33
I had an affair with an ex-boyfried of mine once, while he was with a new girlfriend.
later I had a fling with someone from abroad (who had a girlfriend overseas, which of course he only told me after it was too late)

OW can be quite clingy and persistent though

So it's OK as long as it's not for years?

I do see the men as the weakest link here though: insecure, needy for female attention and weak.

Thanks for that . Weak, possibly to stay in an unhappy marriage; needy for any female intimacy/attention that may be being denied; and for sure insecure, as they doubt their role.

The end of any marriage is tragic; it's very hard for external observers to recognise all the dynamics withing the relationship.

Back again to address some points I didn't manage to address before. Think I may depart from this thread shortly, however, as I'm spending waaaay too much time on it, although I am enjoying the debate!

Thanks JustSpiro for your original supportive comments and apologies for not acknowledging them before now. If you're in a similar situation you have all my sympathy. And thanks also to garlicnuts for a little understanding too (and for blueshoes for agreeing with my last posts. Always nice to hear from someone who agrees

Adrastea: ^Oh my. concernedcitizen Why is it 'infinitely worse'? It sounds like you have never been married? If you had you'd know it's definitely not a 'got a non-committed boyfriend/girlfriend relationship' even if later you are willing to consider separation.
Infidelity in a marriage is extremely damaging to young children (girls especially), whether it's in the French style you talk about or not.^

No, I?ve not been married but that doesn?t prevent me from knowing and understanding what marriage actually is. Every couple?s marriage is different but the point is a commitment to always, in most people?s eyes anyway. If you?re not committed to always then you?re being hypocritical in judging others when they show a similar lack of commitment to other vows.

And I am not saying infidelity is not damaging to spouse and children and is not wrong (in all but a small minority of cases). And I am absolutely not defending this "French style adultery?. All I'm saying is that this film delivered a morality lesson to me when I was least expecting it and from someone I wasn't expecting it from. Someone who I saw and still see as being a bit of a shit due to his own cheating pointed out the devastation that is caused by leaving a marriage and how selfish it is to do so.

OMC ? You have my sympathy as your marriage does sound pretty abusive. I'm even coming to wonder if an affair in your circumstances is theoretically wrong. If someone abuses you I personally think they lose all rights to your respect and loyalty. Good for you for getting out and for finding happiness!

OliveandJim

As the DC of a cheating husband I have to admit that I've always put the blame on both my parents

Having found myself in the same position I have actually come to realise in the last few days that I blame my DF for my DM?s affair almost entirely and I feel angry at him for putting her in this position. I saw how hard she tried to solve the problems and I saw him resolutely ignore them, despite being a good husband in many other ways. I understand her belief that marriages stay together and her utter conviction that us kids shouldn?t suffer for his failings. I also respect that she did not abandon my DF and that she finally found the courage to realise that she shouldn?t suffer for his failings either (she always will but she has found a way to make that bearable and I support that). I think, that in failing to even try to meet some of her most important needs, he forgoed any right to complain about how she went about trying to fulfil them.

I think she would be justified in leaving and I wouldn't have blamed her for doing so but I have been thinking of just how much we all stood to lose had she done this. Family Christmases and birthdays together. The potentially traumatic process of becoming part of one or two new blended families. She will still be DF's primary caregiver when his health deteriorates further. Had she left, this responsibility would have fallen to us kids. We had many invaluable opportunities that we wouldn't have had had the marriage ended - eg my sister got to go to private school when she was being bullied (had a large chunk of money been eaten up by a divorce at a prior point in time, I doubt my DPs could have afforded to do this).

I understand that many people will always think that leaving and finding a new relationship would have been the right thing to do, but when taking the moral high ground comes at such a cost to everyone around you, can it really be seen as the moral high ground any more?

Fairenuff - if that works for you re the commitment thing then that's great. Think I'll have to abandon this thread due to time constraints but I do want to ask under what conditions you and your DH would consider leaving and are these the same for you both? What if your unhappiness in the relationship cannot be fixed by your DH or vice versa? What if you just stop fancying him one day despite the fact that he hasn't changed? (my nightmare scenario, and I do know of people this has happened to). Is the commitment to the marriage more important than your happiness? Is leaving under such circumstances acceptable or not?

To noone in particular: I would also just like to state that I like having these debates on morality as I like to know my own mind and be confident that I am behaving in a way that allows me to hold my head up high. While I think I would be wrong to leave a relationship just because I was unhappy, I don't judge others who do this in the same way as I judge myself. We're all in wildly different circumstances and everyone has their own limit for what they can bear. We all have a right to our mental health. I don't like it when they think they've done less harm than they would have done cheating and staying though. Maybe, but both behaviours cause pain and damage. As does suffering alone and doing nothing. Sometime there is no way of doing something that isn't harmful to someone.

Think I'd better say over and out before I ramble on any more. This thread has helped me clarify a few of my own changing opinions. Life is less black and white than it used to be.