Do most married men tell the same stories to the OW?

[Ormiriathomimus]

I am still in the stage of obsessively googling and reading about affairs since the discovery of DH's affair. It will pass but at the moment it's like peeling a scab Painful but satisfying.

I have found some OW forums - and once i managed to stop frothing at the mouth at some of the things I read, I realised that most of them had been told 'my wife doesn't understand me/want sex/love me/ talk to me' etc etc and 'I'm only staying because I don't want to hurt her/hurt my kids' blah blah de blah! And what is more so many of the posters appeared to have swallowed the stories hook, line and sinker.

This has the knock on effect of making the OW angry and frustrated when the man chooses to go back to/not leave his wife - why would he when shes so fat/stupid/bad-tempered etc and I'm so much better?

Are there really so many unsatisfactory, hopeless marriages out there and awful wives? IME there aren't. There are marriages (most of them) that aren't perfect, but most of them have very happy times too. I only know of one without any saving graces (and she's scared to leave).

In which case why do so many OW fall for it?

As the DC of a cheating husband I have to admit that I've always put the blame on both my parents, never solely on DF. I even have to admit that I found it easier to forgive my DF for his exta conjugal activities rather than accept DM's character/ constant depression. DM was always a lot harder to please and perhaps I felt sorry for DF when in fact DM's depression could have been generated by cheating DF. Out of their 45 years marriage 25 were spent cheating but by staying together they are now blissfully happy. it took them a long time to resolve their issues but they got there, so splitting is not always the best solution and DM was always dead against it. For her a marriage needs working on, you don't avandon the ship as soon as tihngs don't go your way. This is very french I know but ties back to garlic's comments. If your DH or DP can't make you happy anymore, can't connect to you and is drifting further and further away from you but doens't want to leave you because deep down he actually loves you what is he supposed to do?

" For her a marriage needs working on, you don't avandon the ship as soon as tihngs don't go your way" Did he not feel the same? I can't help thinking that having a secret affair that continues for many years, or having many secret affairs, is a form of abandonment of the marriage.

Out of their 45 years marriage 25 were spent cheating but by staying together they are now blissfully happy

25 years of unhappiness is quite a sacrifice

Goodpost garlicnuts. I think there are lots of reasons for people not 'rocking the boat' as you put it - men especially fear losing their kids, losing a lot of money and many of their own emotional issues that mean they would really struggle to leave. We have all seen on here number of women in relationships with men they know are no good for them over years and years but can't seem to leave. That happens in marriages too and to men. Also, some people, I know a few of my age, have deep unresolved issues from their own childhoods that involved divorce and they're irrationally and heavily projecting what they feel about that and their own past onto their current situation. That's very sad because the cycle of damaged children just repeats :(

That moment made me think about this more clearly and I now believe that while affairs are usually wrong, walking out on your marriage is infinitely worse.
Oh my. concernedcitizen Why is it 'infinitely worse'? It sounds like you have never been married? If you had you'd know it's definitely not a 'got a non-committed boyfriend/girlfriend relationship' even if later you are willing to consider separation. And you know, you made a sensible post on the thread Did your parents divorce or do you with they had? and yes, the research you said you had read (that it's not divorce that harms children) is correct and I posted later on the same thread with it. You cannot therefore argue that leaving is so much worse and grossly selfish - especially when it is something that is mutually desired by both parties and where it will be positively beneficial for the children (to be removed from marriages that are abusive or highly conflictual or cold or where there is serial adultery). Infidelity in a marriage is extremely damaging to young children (girls especially), whether it's in the French style you talk about or not.

I think the thing that people never question is whether lifelong marriage in the time we live in is a realistic concept for most people. Marriage came about when lifespans were a quarter or a third of what they are now. It's all very well to say 'Until death to us part' when you're not going to live past 26. Life looks very different today to how it was 1000 years or even 100 years ago.

"I think the thing that people never question is whether lifelong marriage in the time we live in is a realistic concept for most people"

I think they do question it. I certainly do. However whether it is realistic or not depends on what you want to get out of the marriage and what your expectations are. It think that if marriage is no longer viable it is because of that - changing expectations - rather than longer lives.

If your DH or DP can't make you happy anymore, can't connect to you and is drifting further and further away from you but doens't want to leave you because deep down he actually loves you what is he supposed to do?
If you can't make someone happy, then letting them go is the thing that proves you love or care about them. Hanging on in those circumstances just shows you have issues about yourself.

Sometimes it's possible to love and care about someone a lot, but simply not be compatible or good together. It's dreadfully sad, but it's no-one's fault and can't be fixed.

It think that if marriage is no longer viable it is because of that - changing expectations - rather than longer lives.
Well, sure but our (modern first world) expectations in life are very different because of the different ways in which we live nowadays and one of the factors is longer lives and health improvements. For example: we work longer and most people do not expect to work for one company from school to pension, 60 is now like 40, it's not elderly anymore, etc Your life and your considerations about marriage and expectations as a woman are vastly different to that of a woman 1000 or 500 or 100 years ago, and yet the fundamental concept has not changed. And longer lives are really relevant - your expectations when you can only expect to live another 10 years and your life is a hard slog just to survive are unlikely to change over time like they are when you can expect to live to 80 or 90 and are educated etc. So maybe the question should be is whether our expectations of marriage are realistic? In many cases they are not, but I don't think that means the fault is with us.

Adra, your point about infidelity in a marriage being especially detrimental to young girls... groing up in a marriage that saw many infidelities I can confirm that I suffered from my fathers infidelities (mostly self esteem and the need to be re-assured I wa slvoed despite the OW). Bizarrely though, when I ended up in therapy I spent more time talking about my mother, how I despised her for her attitude . In our teens we were asking my parnens every single day why they wouldn't divorce. Now that I'm in my 40s I start to understand why they didn't and I'm happy for them that they found a second, third, fourth wind to their happiness together.
Divorce is not always the best thing in a marriage were adultery has happened. Adultery is not always the end of a marirage if you can find the strength to forgive and work on your issues.

Divorce is not always the best thing in a marriage were adultery has happened. Adultery is not always the end of a marirage if you can find the strength to forgive and work on your issues.
Yes, I agree. In some marriages, working on the issues is the right thing to do. In some it is not. The strength comes in having the honesty and maturity to know the difference.

Infidelity does cause self-esteem and trust issues in children. I am not surprised the majority of the feelings were towards your mother, it's often the way.

Adultery is not always the end of a marirage if you can find the strength to forgive and work on your issues How do you forgive a man who refuses to give up his mistresses because that is 'normal' in his society?

To be forgiven you have to first be sorry. And if you are sorry, you will stop doing the thing that you are sorry about.

Olive it sounds like your dm 'put up with' your dfs cheating because it was expected of her, or her self esteem was so low that she couldn't handle going it alone. She was miserable. Her misery affected you as a child and even as an adult.

So maybe the question should be is whether our expectations of marriage are realistic?

It's realistic to expect fidelity in a marriage. The trouble is that so many people will settle for less.

Fairenuff, when I asked her (when I was in my twenties) why she hadn't divorced she said she could not let him go or leave herself because she loved him so much. Seeing them together at 65 I do see this love she talked about and his towards her as well. He never wanted to divorce, not even when he fathered a child with one of his long term mistresses. We've never met him but I tihnk he took care financially of that other child all his life.

What is love but the ability to forgive, to undertsand, to empathise.

My mum is german by the way so it isn't a cultural thing.

What is love but the ability to forgive, to undertsand, to empathise

For me, it is where you actually feel pain when your partner is suffering. It's hard to explain, it's a bit like the love you feel for a child. You would do everything in your power to protect them from harm or hurt. If I broke my dh's heart, I would feel his anguish.

It's really hard to put into words but I would never, ever, not in a million years, knowingly inflict that pain on the person I love.

That's what love is to me.

My MIL is incapable of forgiving her son, of understanding her son and of empathising with him. In my book she's a crap mother because she's knowingly inflicting pain on the person she supposedly loves...So forgivenes,, undertsanding and empathy in my book are curcial to every lovign relationship, without these ingredients you cnanot commit over time as god knows a moment will come wher eyou will have to be able to show any of these to move forward in your relationship.

Growing up with a cheating parent makes me want to be better than that. I would never cheat on my DP but you cannot say never as god knows what life will throw our way. In 20 years time who knows how we'll be, who will have entered our lives, exited or how we will feel about each other.

Cheating is not necessarily planned or desired by the culprid party. A lot of poeple on this thread have detailed how very often it starts with a connection, meeting someone you feel close to, whose company you enjoy, more so than the company of your spouse. Telling them would devaste them, divorcing them would break their heart and the person that you are so keen on right now might not be enticing tomorrow.

Adrastea - To be fair, I do believe it is infinitely worse in some situations, although not in others. I believe it would have been infinitely worse in my DM's situation to leave and this is what I was primarily referring to.

To be honest, I think if there are no children involved, both people are young and either one or both are desperately unhappy then they both have a good chance of a new life with someone else and divorce is justified (although not completely morally unambiguous).

But if you're not young and/or there are children involved, then leaving your partner is a whole different kettle of fish. First let's deal with the age thing.

It is far harder to find a life partner in your 60s or 70s than it is in your 20s and 30s and some people who divorce late simply never find someone new (I am 30 and despite years on dating websites have yet to meet ANYONE). I know people will say that they know plenty of people that manage it, but the fact is that plenty of people don't. I know people will also say that having the chance to do so is better than living in a marriage you are content with but in which your partner is cheating, unbeknown to you, but I disagree. If my partner left me when I was approaching old age I would be devastated and absolutely livid, no matter how badly we were getting on. I would far rather he sought some fulfilment elsewhere and respect the most important of the wedding vows, because it's the always part that distinguishes a marriage from a LTR.

And then there are the enormous financial implications. If you divorce young, you have far less to lose and also plenty of time to earn back the money you lost in the divorce process, but if you leave someone when they're 65 or so, they may never recover financially, and their plans for old age can just completely unravel. I do not believe at this stage that it is fair or ok to divorce someone just because you are unhappy. I think leaving, under these circumstance is infinitely worse than having an affair. Marriage isn't just about happiness; it's also a promise and a contract not to do the other person over financially by abandoning them in old age when their chances of recovery are low.

And when it comes to children, I agree that if the marriage is a living hell and the children are obviously suffering it is once again in everyone's best interests to dissolve the marriage. But if the kids aren't unhappy they will suffer enormously from a divorce, not just in the short term but possibly all throughout their lives. They may even be left with the burden of having 2 sets of elderly parents to care for in their old age, as happened to someone I know. Their mother remarried a man without children and their father remarried someone who's kids lived abroad and visited rarely. The result was that all the care and support for both sets of "parents" fell to him. Then there's the issue of your kids growing up in a step family. They haven't chosen this and they may not get on with the person you/your x chooses and the family that comes with the step parent. It's not fair to impose this on them unless they are actually unhappy living with their parents.

And then there are the safety issues too. I have a friend in the police and she says sexual predators often seek out relationships with single parents to give them access to their children and that dating sites have become a gold mine for them. They have all the relevant information (often children's ages etc) and an idea of the parent's personality type and temperament and can pick out the type of person that is an easy target with very little effort involved at all. Even if you're as careful as can be, if you can't control how your x will try to meet new people, this is a risk your children will have to face. (Don't mean to scaremonger as it's not going to happen to every second family but it is a risk). Starting again with kids involved should be an absolute last resort; an affair, in my opinion, the second last resort.

I still stand by what I wrote on the other thread - but I was addressing the situation regarding the children and how they're affected. It sounds like the OP was being treated very badly by her husband, and her dc were suffering distress as a result. If so, I think she needs to get out, I really do and she shouldn't feel guilt for doing so. The kids may very well initially feel relief and be better off overall but (as she acknowledged) they will not emerge completely unscathed.

I suspect my DF would really struggle to find anyone else at this stage. He has multiple health problems and given his social skills issue I can just see him coming home to an empty house every day until his life is over. He has few friends and isn't good at making them. Neither parent would have the same financial security they both worked so hard to give themselves.

My DM on the other hand has everything going for her and I think she would find someone new relatively easily (if not the OM). And while I don't believe we all deserve to be happy at any cost to others, I think we deserve it in certain situations, my DM's is one of them. She has put her heart and soul into her marriage, she really has.

My DF has burried his head in the sad and ignored an issue that has drastically reduced the quality of my DM's life. He has arguably broken his vow to love and protect her by ignoring her sadness. As he has refused to meet her needs (or try to meet them) I think she has the right to seek other means of meeting them. She signed up for a marriage in which both partners do everything in their power to take care of the other. She didn't get what she thought she was getting. I love my DF to bits but I think he does deserve to suffer the consequences of his failing. My DM gave him decades of opportunities to fix something that only he can fix and he hasn't. She did not do this lightly as I think someone implied or suggested. If you cannot or will not attempt to meet someone's needs in the long term it's selfish to say they are not allowed to seek to get their needs met in other ways.

All this said I am incredibly glad my parents are still together. They do have a friendship to some degree and they are a team. They have plenty of good points and they love me and my siblings. I love spending time as a family unit and it would break my heart if they split up.

Bloody hell, that was long and I haven't even acknowledged everyone's point!

Your marriage sounds like what most people see as a non-committed relationship,albeit with someone who you suspect you will never want to leave and who you suspect will never want to leave you

concerned at the time I didn't think about what you wrote very deeply but another thread has got me thinking about this.

I don't think of a marriage as being that different to a 'committed relationship'. Religious beliefs aside, a marriage is just the legal contract (a piece of paper). The emotional commitment is where it really matters to me.

I was with my dh for 12 years before we married and we only married because we planned to start a family. The marriage changed nothing in our relationship - we are together through choice, not because of a legal document which is rescinded if one of you breaks the contract.

Before we married we were already committed and wanted to be together for ever, we wanted to be faithful, we wanted to treat each other with respect. But we only wanted to do that if the other person felt the same. Therefore, if one of us treated the other badly there would be no respect for each other, there would be no trust and ultimately, for me, there would be no love. I could not love a man who treated me without respect.

So, marriage aside, our relationship was already committed. We have been married now for 17 years and our relationship is just the same as it ever was. I see no reason why it would change because we both know where we stand.

We did not promise 'for better or worse'. What does that mean? Does it give someone licence to treat you badly and you stay with them and put up with it for the sake of the marriage? For the chldren? I don't agree with that. You only get one life, you should make it as happy and fulfilling for yourself and the people around you as you can.

We did promise 'forsaking all others' though.

So I can kind of see why you might think it's a non-committed relationship because I am not promising to stay with him whatever happens. I expect him to keep to his side of the deal too, or it's over.

It works very well for us.

P.S. I would far rather he sought some fulfilment elsewhere and respect the most important of the wedding vows - don't tell him that though as it would be like giving him permission. He would know that he can sleep with as many women as he likes and you'll just put up with it.

Fairenuff, it sounds as though you think people should be perfect and no mistake is allowed, ever. That puts a lot of pressure on your other half. What if it's you who trips over? No one is perfect and even with the best of intentions people do silly things that they regret. I don't know anyone who doesn't have any regrets.

"We did not promise 'for better or worse'. What does that mean"

It means that you will support and care for each other no matter how tough times get. it means that when you are ill or depressed, your spouse will be there to look after you. It means that when money is short and brings about the usual worries and stresses you don't walk out because it's all too hard. When babies are small and demanding and the married relationship takes a back seat, you hang on in there trusting it will improve.

IMO that is one of the backbones of a marriage - the beleif that you can trust that one person to cover your back, to add a bit of backbone when yours is weakening, to take your side.

"? No one is perfect and even with the best of intentions people do silly things that they regret."

Exactly - which is why what I said in my last post is important.

"We did not promise 'for better or worse'. What does that mean"

It means that you will support and care for each other no matter how tough times get. it means that when you are ill or depressed, your spouse will be there to look after you. It means that when money is short and brings about the usual worries and stresses you don't walk out because it's all too hard. When babies are small and demanding and the married relationship takes a back seat, you hang on in there trusting it will improve

Well, that's what we do

I don't consider that 'worse', I think that's just life.

Olive cheating is not 'a mistake', it's a considered choice. There is a difference.

Fairenuff, cheating is not a crime worthy of capital punishment either. Have you seriously never done anything you were ashamed off and/ or bitterly regreted? Whatever it is, at the time it's usually a considered choice (considered for half a second) that can have huge consequences. Shit happens, not only to other people. We are all human and imperfect.

There is a French film called "La trahison" or something like that where a French man leaves his partner because she got attracted (platonically) to another man but nothing happens physically. He leaves her because the mere thought that she could have for one second thought of someone else is intolerable to him. Your stance reminds me of this.

It must be very tiring to live with someone so moralistically superior.

cheating is not a crime worthy of capital punishment either

I never said it was. All I am saying is that, for me, I expect my husband to be faithful. That's my expectations. I realise that some people settle for less, but that's up to them.

All I ask for is respect, it's not that much to ask really. And I give the same in return.

If that's too much for some people to give, that's up to them. But cheating is not for me. Is that so hard to understand?

Olive cheating is not a mistake. A mistake is what you do in a maths test.

Cheating is a crime against the marriage. It is a horrible thing to do to another person.

Concerned, I totally agree with everything you said in your posts. Thank you for articulating so well.

Having an affair is wrong, but the greater crime is to break up the family, particularly re: the children.

I don't understand people who say that a spouse who wants to stray should end the marriage first. Sure, a secret affair takes the power and control out of the hands of the faithful spouse. But how does ending the marriage put the power back in hers or lessen the pain? Surely it is worse because now she is left on her own with the dcs who are pining for their daddy in reduced financial circumstances and she has no choice in the matter anyway, affair or no affair!

If the affair is exposed, the choice of whether the marriage should continue or not should be firmly in the hands of the faithful spouse. That is the risk a straying spouse always takes. What a slap in the wife's cheek to find that on top of discovering the affair, her husband now wants to divorce her. Or that he divorces her only to go straight into the arms of the OW.

Ending the marriage first will only satisfy the moralists. It is no comfort for the wronged spouse. It is she who should have the choice to turn a blind eye or kick him to the kerb or extract whatever pound of flesh she deems appropriate.