Turning Tavern IV - Down Bi the riverside, near the well of loneliness...

[NotForProfit]

Hi all,

thought i'd be proactive and start a new thread for the wenches of the turning tavern as the old thread's pretty much full...

for anyone new to this, it's a thread for women suddenly finding themselves attracted to another woman, so grab a glass of something intoxicating, pull up a chair by the fireside and we'll try to help one another deal with the elation, confusion and heartache of rediscovering your sexuality.

Hello all, crikey this London heat is making me feel heady!

Emma thanks for that clip. I've seen it before and I really enjoyed it. It certainly got me thinking as I'm quite a closed person who doesn't tend to show true emotion easily. It's absolutely true that bravery lies in admitting to feeling, and especially in taking emotional risks while staying true to yourself.

Likea, a couple of qs you asked me: firstly, do I 'obsess' sexually over my WIQ? well, yes and no. Sensually more. I would be just as happy to cuddle up with her and get close to her emotionally, although I'd be very happy to be sexual with her too, she's so utterly gorgeous.

Also, you asked what it was that made me think you have a chance with your WIQ, well I would say that it's because of the ways in which you describe the silences, the way she looks at you when she thinks you're not looking etc. I find with WIQ that I can only look at her for short, almost surreptitious moments as it's all I can bear to do, whereas with other women whom I admire or am just happy to look at, I will do it quite openly and honestly - maybe not running my eyes up and down them (!) but I will look at them quite openly while I'm talking to them or listening to them, for quite a considerable time.

Cao, you should write a novel about your physical encounters! Phew! I almost felt a bit sick when you quoted your WIQ's line about the married man - I mean, WTF?!!! But I do think that the answer could be that it's her playing games with you, wanting a reaction from you.

Cao and likea, don't underestimate your WIQ's insecurites over the age gap - they probably can't believe their luck that such nubile fillies as you are lusting after them. Not that I wish to sound ageist, I'm just imagining how I'd feel if I thought that a young woman of 18 or so could be lusting after me! That's not to say that it should stop them from wanting to be with you, but it might be a reason for them holding back a bit...

I saw my WIQ last night and came away feeling such strong vibes I was almost overwhelmed. I felt she was very attentive to me, and a couple of times she made some quite overt comments about how pleased she was that I was there. I was tipsy when I floated home from the bar and honestly couldn't help but feel that I could totally have her if I wanted too. Such a different feeling to the other day when it was all business as usual. But I am concerned that she will either get tired of the whole thing - she does do more of the chasing in some ways - and she will see me as boring and childish. I do feel out of her league and I am several years younger than her. But then I have every reason for being restrained as I'm not exactly in a position where I can do anything! Her dh is semi-famous and it would be a scandal in our circle if anything did happen, not to mention the potential ruin it could cause our families - my dh and boys are so precious to me my heart aches for them.

Trapped, I have often wondered what she thinks about my obvious attraction to her, and whether she's "flattered" by it (not to sound arrogant). The thing is with her, she can be incredibly absent minded and self-centred, although she is usually very attentive to me when I'm speaking, and cares a lot about my life and what I'm doing. It's just that she's lived alone for the past 20 years, and has got used to looking after herself and being quite inward looking, despite her extroverted personality.

Follow - funny you should mention Wong Kar Wai; we are currently working our way through his movies!

Last night WIQ asked me to stay over, as she was feeling very feverish and was worried. I slept in the spare room, and checked on her a few times during the night. I've started to feel a sort of anger brewing about this whole situation. How can she NOT see what's going on here? Why did she let me give her that incredibly hot massage, and let me stroke her cheek and her neck? Why the hell is she leading me on like this? I was walking around her apartment in my underwear last night, and even though I saw her looking at me, I still have NO IDEA if she has any interest in physical stuff aside from the massage.

When I was leaving her apartment to go to a meeting this morning, she was in the kitchen and I went up behind her, took her shoulders and kissed her neck. She didn't even flinch. She asked me to come back after work, and I'm here now. She's resting. I'm probably going to stay over again tonight, and take her to the doctor tomorrow morning.

I'm not saying I expect recompense for taking care of her like this, but if she's fucking with my head, I will be furious. My other close friend (who knows WIQ but not very well) was saying that WIQ MUST know, loves the attention, and wants it to carry on.

Cao, do bear in mind though that if your WIQ is ill she may not be feeling particularly amorous right now! Personally I find that when I'm ill all thought of being exciting etc goes right out of the window. All I want is to be looked after... so go easy on her, I'm sure all you're doing is v appreciated.

I do hope she's ok!

Trapped - I totally understand that feeling of being overwhelmed by seeing and spending time with your WIQ. And I also know exactly how you feel about your DH and your boys. Although my situation was different to yours in the beginning, I'll never forget how sorry I felt for having such strong feelings about WIQ when I had a boyfriend who loved me. This sort of situation seems to prove the power of human emotion - it's sometimes just too overpowering to control or resist.

Thanks for understanding Cao x

@ CaoNiMa - Wow, just wow. I think your other close friend is right. How can this woman get naked in front of you, let you fondle and even kiss her and just carry on like nothing's happening? I don't do any of that with women friends, do you? So this is more, it does feel like she enjoys the effect she's having on you but that's all.

If it were me I'd want this resolved one way or the other. If she won't let things move along then be prepared to call it a day unless you're ok with just hanging out with her on her terms.

Elizabeth - I'm scared that what you say is right, and I just don't want to burst the bubble that I'm in right now, however frustrating it is. The closeness we've had over the last few days has been amazing, even if she hasn't felt the same physical desire as I have. The thought of never being able to touch her again isn't something I'm ready to deal with. But you're right - I need to.

I'm probably the wrong person to comment on this really. I was recently in the situation where I was attracted to my next door neighbour. Really bad idea, lots of awkward results possible if I asked him out, or more, and got rejected.

But I asked on here what to do and the consensus was "ask for what you want or you'll regret it". Took the advice and it went well (and still is going well as it happens).

So going for it worked for me and now I probably think it should work for everyone. Probably wrongly. But honestly I think there can be no greater waste of your time and your precious emotional capital than mooning around after someone who doesn't really care about you. If you disappeared from her life tomorrow would she care? If she's not into you then when will you move on if not now? You could waste years on this if you aren't careful.

Though one possibility is that she can't believe an attractive and much younger woman has fallen for her? Can't believe her luck kind of thing?

Elizabeth, thanks for explaining. I understand how something working out so well would give you a definite view of how situations should go. It's great that things worked out with you and your neighbour.

I know without a doubt that WIQ loves me. She has said so. We are extremely close friends, and are the first person the other turns to for anything - good or bad. She helped me through the break-up with my ex-boyfriend about three months ago, and we kept in touch religiously while she was away for 6 weeks earlier in summer.

The trouble is, I have always carried this "secret" that I feel more for her, so there has always been some dishonesty there. Although by now, if she doesn't know that I am sexually attracted to her, she isn't as clever as I thought...

Maybe she knows, and can't believe that I fancy her. I often can't believe that she wants to be friends with me (since she is so incredible, sophisticated, intellectual, etc.) I doubt that this is the case, though. A lot of men find her hugely attractive, and she's quite self-assured about her good looks. She has the body of a 25-year-old and is incredibly stylish and glamorous.

Mmm, tricky...so if you move things along you could lose the friendship? But the friendship alone is less than you want.

I don't think I could stand to be just friends with someone I was crazy about. It would be worse if he allowed me part of the way into his life knowing that at any time I could be asked to back out again to let in someone else.

Well it's a personality question I guess...I would not be able to stand the uncertainty so I think I would seduce her to take the final step. But you may be different.

Good luck anyway hugs

Follow - yes following my joy. Great words, yours is a great name btw. (Note to self....Time to drop my name, certainly no dilemma here!)

Outmy - I can't begin to tell you how much I love my DH for letting my do this. I think he has full understanding that I'm not wanting to hurt him or take anything away from him or our DCs.

outmy i meant you decide to end it completely i.e,. no more seeking contaxtc or maing efforts. i remember all the ins and outs and i know she was very off with you recently but she was also off before yet you still had hopes, and now ended that as sad as it is but theright thing to do.
I meant to look critically and realistically not with starry eyes! which Cao is now doing anyway.
no contact from wiq apart from a message today - cancelling out arrangements for next week - i'm verydisappointed as it was all quite set. Will still seeher hte week after but was lookng forward to this one just after holiday. No q's about the holiday itself or anything else so far - i did reply in a disappointed way so don't know maybe she is annoyed. Hasn't replied to that yet (or won't at all i donòt know).
Cao of course she knows you are attracted and i also said before that she may be flattered by this unconventional friendshi andso much lolve from you - or f not flattered than at least finds it enjoyable. But by telling her something you won't lose the friendshiop as she knows that sooner or later it will be raised, if she is not sexually 'up for it' she will kindly expòain - i know it's still horrid for you butat least yo uwill know as ElizabethX says andmaybe something positive will happen but if she rejects you as a lover she won't do as a friend, if you can be happy with friendship.
Elizabeth you are so right really about putting it so bluntly as to wasting time and emotion on someone who may not care and that question 'would wiq care if you disappeared from her life' just made me stop nd think about mine, the answer is 'prob not' and the only way to know is to disappear for a bit and see whethre she makes any efforts! it's obvious but not when emotional about someone so thanks for that.

instead of disapperaing I can ask her - am and don't see her much alone, waiting fr the right moment. but if she deflects any approaches then it's an option.

Ladies, I've had a revelation. I just put WIQ to bed, and I said to her (regarding her medical issues) "You don't have to go through this alone. I'm here for you, and I will always be here. I love you" (because that's the truth) and I kissed her cheek, and her shoulder.

She said

"Darling, it means so much that you said that right now"

and thanked me for being there.

And I thought, actually, that's all that matters. This is the most important friendship of my life, and the other stuff is just ancillary to that. I have so much love for her, and I know that she appreciates and returns it. Surely that's the most important thing. We were drawn to each other so strongly back in January. The fact remains that I'm gay and she's straight, and if nothing ever comes of it sexually, at least I have her in my life. She was talking to another close friend on Skype earlier, and I realised that the warmth and love she reserves for her friends is just so illuminating and all-consuming.

She knows I love her. I have decided to stop fretting and pushing the physical stuff (especially since she's ill) and concentrate on the friendship and the closeness. She's so sweet - even though she's so sick, she made sure that I had everything I need for staying over tonight.

I'll check in tomorrow to see how everyone's doing. Goodnight from the Orient.

CNM

outmy it's not new that Iàm planning to talk to her (not confront but tell her that i'm attracted) - waiting for the rght moment when no people around and she is in the right mood. Disappearing is another option but worse as it involves long wating andhoping and nothing may happen in the end, but if she deflects an approacj when i try to talk then it's an option (or if i need a break). now she has cancelled next week i won't see her for a bit and next time not sure whether she'l be on her own . hope she doesn't cancel that as well! you know there is a chance she saw this forum in her History after all and maybe trying to cut contact, but this would be very obvious soon if that's that case. Messages now were very businesslike even when i soundd disappointed, no questions about holiday or anything or that she was sorry that she had to cancel.
Yes of course your wiq was giving you clear 'no interest' signals in the end, but that doesb't excuse her not doing it much earlier and acting weird woith nasty looks after encouraging you and also being dishonest abou hte note as if she didn't know. She 2as also off when you apologised - it's messed up and immature not to say Hi even after that but reiterate that she is only being friendly. Instead she came across as rude and unkind.

Cao i bet she doesn't let her friends to kiss her on the neck and she doesn't lie on bed with them! so i really don't think you aer in the same category as other friends. see what she islike when well again, maybe she will make it clear wether she is straight and not shifting, but there is equally no harm in asking her - why would she eve nbe offended if you asked whether she could ever be with a woman! close friends can tlk easily about these things, and you asy you aer very close.

Cao - echoing what Likea has just said, why not ask her if she has ever been tempted by (the fruits of...sorry I couldn't help myself) a woman. Supposedly 80% of women fantasise about at least kissing a woman. I am in the 20% who have not and look at where that got me Really it's silly that it's so potentially scandalous. It's only because we live in a patriarchal society and men would certainly hate all their womenfolk deserting them for other women. I now think if only women knew how great it is (being with another women) there would be a mass defection

The other thing I was going to add (may have mentioned on an earlier thread), when I was getting to know my WIQ she had intimated that there wouldn't be any future in us because I wasn't gay and I apparently said "not yet." Never say never!

CaoNiMa - I read this thread most days, but as most people on here know I am further on because my WIQ and I are about to form a civil partnership, I don't post often, but this bit is EXACTLY how it started with my WIQ and me:

And I thought, actually, that's all that matters. This is the most important friendship of my life, and the other stuff is just ancillary to that. I have so much love for her, and I know that she appreciates and returns it. Surely that's the most important thing.

There's nothing else I can say really, the 2 of you are as close as it is possible to be without the sex stuff, which may or may not happen, and I remember very clearly feeling that I would settle for that amazing, wonderful, loving feeling, and not spoil it by asking for more if she didn't want it, or actually I don't know that I wanted it either, never having had that with a woman, but, well, it happened, and what can I say .... ??!!

Oats hello - how long ago did you turn?

..and how did your friends and family respond?

@ CaoNiMa

On balance does it make you happy or sad to be just her friend?

As the song says, you can addicted to a certain kind of sadness.

I have never been kissed on the shoulder by another woman...she knows what she does.

Sorry message above was to Cats, not Oats. Bloody eyesight....