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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Turning Tavern IV - Down Bi the riverside, near the well of loneliness...

999 replies

NotForProfit · 07/07/2012 13:53

Hi all,

thought i'd be proactive and start a new thread for the wenches of the turning tavern as the old thread's pretty much full...

for anyone new to this, it's a thread for women suddenly finding themselves attracted to another woman, so grab a glass of something intoxicating, pull up a chair by the fireside and we'll try to help one another deal with the elation, confusion and heartache of rediscovering your sexuality.

OP posts:
Trappedbyacrush · 24/07/2012 09:47

Hello everyone, I have been lurking but not posting since coming back from holiday at half term. To remind you, and to inform the new members on the thread, I am married but hopelessly attracted to another woman in my circle of friends. Both of us are married, and happily so (well I am and she says she is), with great lives - lovely children, friends, social lives, gorgeous houses, satisfying jobs, etc... the only thing is, is that I'm completely besotted with my WIQ.

I've already talked on previous TT threads about my guilt over this. Dh is a wonderful man - he's an amazing father and a lovely husband. OK, we have our ups and downs, but we are happy together. We work well as a team, we have good sex, we laugh, joke, have fun together. What I find interesting about my predicament is that I have none of the classic reasons for obsessing over fancying someone else, at least not on the surface anyway, so I think I'm a case in point that these mad irrational crushes can happen to ANYBODY, no matter how perfect their life is. I'm a classic 'cake and eat it' type I guess!

I did speak to dh about my bisexuality when we met, but he, and I, didn't really see it as relevant as we were in love, and a gay lifestyle was never something I wanted - I always wanted the traditional set up with kids and roses round the door. (OK, OK, I'm sure many would argue that gay people can have that too but you have to bear in mind I come from a very traditional, middle class, Tory-voting family!). So since being married I've always managed to live with this dual sexuality, which has manifested itself in crushes on other women, two of which lasted two years each, plus the one I'm in now which has I think now hit the two year mark, with possible latent feelings beforehand which I was unaware of. Somehow I have always managed to bury my feelings and get on with life. It puts huge pressure on me and sometimes I think I might go mad! I simply couldn't speak to dh about it though, he'd take it really badly and would probably stop me from seeing WIQ again - I think he has a bit of an inkling anyway, so I have to behave very nonchalantly when I mention her.

Since I last wrote, WIQ and I have grown closer as friends. I really can't go into details on here about events or conversation details, but I am more confused than ever. When I see her during evenings, and she's had a couple of drinks, I often get this feeling from her - in the past I've noticed her looking at me, making a beeline for me, in fact at times the vibes have been really palpable. But during daytime meet ups, I always come away feeling as if there is NOTHING there, that it's business as usual etc. She seems to forget bits of information about me whereas I always seem to remember what she says about herself and what she's doing etc. It's as if I have no place in her busy, busy, fabulous life and I am no more important than any other casual friend to her.I often feel a bit depressed for a while afterwards, then I tell myself to pull myself together, to forget about her, to get on with my life and to focus on dh etc. After all, nothing CAN actually happen anyway?!! Then I'll maybe see her again, but in an evening set-up, and something will happen that will make me wonder whether it really is all business as usual with her. However, I am so bloody cool she'd have to be a complete fantasist herself to believe there is something coming from me... but she seems quite intuitive so I wonder if she feels a vibe too. Gay-dar if you like!

Often after I've seen her during the day, and I've come away feeling deflated, and a bit of time's passed, I'll start to feel vibes pulling me to her again. It's like a sixth sense almost. I wonder if all the talk between us is just hot air, and actually what is really there is this strong mutual link that I think she might be in denial about (when I think about her past and the nature of her marriage etc this does not surprise me - put it this way, I can't imagine that a crush on another woman was ever in her carefully-laid plans). For example, I saw her the night before last, and she was gabbling away almost from the first moment I saw her, than I realised that actually she was possibly quite nervous, and was worried about silences and the possible intimacy of us being together for a period of time. I think she has intimacy issues - even with her dh, she seems to like to be around lots of people all the time.

It's almost as if after I've seen her, a sand hole has been left, which manages to refill itself somehow, with the waves of our feelings. God how naff was that? Can't describe it any other way though. But I'm probably completely deluded and sound like a complete saddo! I am aware that I may be trying to convince myself of something that just isn't.

I will be back to post more, and I have been following your stories, which I'd like to comment on but I only have rare moments when I can post as I don't spend much time at the computer and I'm terrified of being caught! Briefly though: Caonima, your first post back got me quite hot under the collar and I couldn't help grinning for a while after reading it! Sounds amazing! I always pictured you in Melbourne or somewhere, interesting that you aren't - never thought of your city as a bohemian lace but it sounds idyllic! Likea wow, I do think your WIQ has feelings but is unsure of them and is terrified of plunging head first in as she knows how much it would affect her life if she did. I think giving her space and time is a good thing and everything you're doing is great. It's just as well you seem the patient type. Notfor you seem very appealing to other women - lucky you, from the sounds of things you have something about you! CW sounds like a good bet, you are v lucky that your dh is cool about it, but I would be aware of getting into any emotional entanglements (so say I!!) Outmy - my heart has nearly broken for you at times, your WIQ sounds like one seriously messed-up head case. I can't tell whether she has feelings for you as her looks could mean anything and she could just be a 'starer' but whatever, she seems to have major issues and I think her confusion and feeling of repulsion over her possibly bisexuality is something she may never get over unless she's prepared to tackle it herself.

Loveisthemessage · 24/07/2012 10:31

Hello Trapped - your situation sounds very difficult. Another WIQ that blows hot and cold and warms up to sizzling with alcohol. Have you discussed sexuality to see what her thoughts are about same-sex r-ships etc? If the conversation progresses you could mention your previous crushes and discuss bisexuality in general. Are you one of her closest friends? If so, she shouldn't be nervous in your company unless there are feelings bubbling under the surface. As for her planning the script of her life, it's impossible to predict what life throws at you and even she will get some surprises that weren't necessarily on her agenda.
Outmy - I'm currently trying to write to my mother but fear she is too prejudiced and judgey to understand my situation regardless of the fact that no one was more surprised about it than me. No one in my situation in my direct circle of friends which makes it more difficult. Feel out on a limb.

Trappedbyacrush · 24/07/2012 10:47

Not sure, Loveis. She did make a comment about how everyone is on the spectrum, as it were... I've noticed she's either eager to talk about homosexuality or totally averse to it, from the occasional times it's come up in convos. No idea what that means?! No she is not a close friend, our friendship is something of a recent thing.

NotForProfit · 24/07/2012 11:41

Wow, lots of developments on this thread -

Outmy - i'm much better thanks. Had a massively hectic day yesterday, but things are a bit more settled today. DH said he saw CW cycling past our house yesterday, and that she slowed down and looked in... Grin. WIQ is away at present, which is probably for the best.

Trappedby- wow, so many parallels with how things were for me and WIQ1 back there for a while. Hope your WIQ turns out to be more at ease with the situation than mine was. Funny how alcohol leads to vibes sort of being more obvious than they would be during daylight hours. I think yours definitely sound more obviously mutual though.

OP posts:
CaoNiMa · 24/07/2012 12:35

Hello everyone. The thread is so active these days - it's great!

Trapped, I'm glad you enjoyed my report about my reunion with WIQ! It was kind of amazing, and the past week has been fantastic. The city I live in doesn't have a particularly bohemian reputation, but it has some interesting history. She is really into it, and has decorated her apartment like an old 1930s boudoir.

She was feeling really sick this morning. She's been having trouble with her health, and insists on using Chinese doctors when she probably should see a Western one just for a second opinion. She called me in tears as she was feeling so bad, and I went straight over to hers. I spent the day looking after her, and she's now gone for a nap. I've made myself a strong drink now, and will make dinner for us in a little while. She wants to watch another film tonight, by which time I'll have had a couple of drinks.

The thought of not seeing her and not being with her all the time is kind of terrifying at the moment. Work is going through a quiet spell, so it's not as if I'm always busy and occupied the way I was while she was away. I just want to spend all my time with her. Between naps today, she came and sat in the kitchen with me and chatted. Things are so natural between us. She matches every smile, and looks at me with total love. The fact that she asked me to come and look after her means such a lot to me. I think I am the closest person to her at the moment.

I have been prevaricating and procrastinating for so long now - it's starting to get ridiculous. I'm just so afraid of making that move that could either be the best thing I've ever done, or the ruination of the dearest friendship of my life so far. She means everything to me, and to lose her love through an act of lust seems so stupid. But I can't carry the regret of not doing something around with me forever.

Argh. Sorry for a slightly maudlin update this evening. Hopefully better news later.

CaoNiMa · 24/07/2012 12:36

I promise I'll be back with some advice about other peoples' situations soon. Sorry I've been bleating on about myself for my past few posts!

likeatonneofbricks · 24/07/2012 13:25

Canoima, as i was suggesting before, you don't have to make a pass as such - the spft version would be to ask whether she feels comfortable with the fact that yo uaer attracted to her - trust me it's no secret to her by now. this would start the talk rolling and then she will open up about her thoughts on this, either thatshe needs more time to move a step closer, or that friendship is all she can have - all fine as yo uwouldn't lose friendship this way. It sounds like she is completely in charge so she would probably make a pass herself eventually but the talk would make it clearer for you so that you wait patienmtly and not agonise! you sound very very young btw!
outmy, not sure whether you missed that bit for which of course i don't blame you as the thread is so busy, but i asked her already whether she's going with someone - as she mentioned a 'we', and it's for a very long weekend, and she said Yes and looked down as if didnt want to elaborate. I didn't press as wasn't feeling too brave at that moment. i can ask again but what do yo uthink of that response? sounds like he's on the scene still - gutted! previously if she went somewhere with female friends she just said so without prompting.

likeatonneofbricks · 24/07/2012 13:31

Trapped i always said yor wiq sounds so much like mine - and now even more so with the drinking and vibes, the two paragraphs where you describe how it s vibes after drinking and yet business as usual in the day, and you leaving deflated is EXACTLY the same. Also about talk being hot air and things unspoken what matters. I tend to talk too much like your wiq when nervous with her - always think i sound like an idiot, but it is nerves. also think i could be deluded - you descrbed it very much as what i feel too. Of course we are both single which is so much easier but she seems to be dating someone now (a man) even though not daily or even close to that. it must be a nightmare to supress your feelings regularly and in this case also in front of dh. I m surprised you aer so positive about my wiq now - any particular comment that caused that?

likeatonneofbricks · 24/07/2012 13:44

trapped also my wiq is from similar traditional background and has a very full social life and also works - i feel also that she has no space fr me apart from an occasional cosy chat or a few vibes here and there. I really think for her the coming out would be a huge issue (to her grown children and friends). Iàm not so traditional but i respect that kind of way of life, at least i haven't settled for the life that you have but on the other hand if this doesn't work out for me i will be back to feeling lost as to what i want - and i really do miss being in a relationship, not enjoying being single for more than a few months. I can see therefore that what you have with h is of great value to you - it really is complex which way is better, free like me but very hard to find someone i can feel string feelings for and for wiq of tradtype toreciprocate, or somewhat stifled life like yours but with many fulfilling things of other kind..

likeatonneofbricks · 24/07/2012 13:46

can i also ask Trapped in what way aer you obsessing - sexually or wanting to see her all the time? is it crving her attention? also you say you look very cool but when it's just the two of you do you delibeerately give her any hints and what sort?

likeatonneofbricks · 24/07/2012 13:52

*have strong feelings
*enjoy being single

outmymind · 24/07/2012 14:03

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

outmymind · 24/07/2012 14:14

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likeatonneofbricks · 24/07/2012 14:52

lost my post again! yes still enjoying, only now starting to relax, still a few days left!
another option is that she isn't attracted or interested and just wants to keep personal barriers when it comes to men, especially ifhtey ar not official and full time iykwim. I am hoping still that it is wiht the women friends but she didn't say as she wanted me to ask and confirm my interest if you like. but when i asked she looked and paused for a bit andthen said yes looking sdown as if to say 'do yo uhave to ask', it was obvious she would rather me not asking - or at least that was m,y interpretation. This came up only because she saked me about my holiday and showed some interest and ni was quick to add who I'm going with so that she doesn't think it's with a man. then asked about hers and she talked in some detail about the place etc but stopped when it came to my q about who she is going with. it could also be her the man AND a friend, also not great if he is being introuduced.

likeatonneofbricks · 24/07/2012 15:48

also outmy i don't think she's guilty about anything at all as far as how she behaves with me! she doesn't flirt obviously - after drinking she may not be aware that i can feel vibes from her as she is not controlling it well, but even if she thinks she does give vibes then she may feel frustrated that i don't act on it rather than feeling guilty towards me. There aer moments which I love, when she is completely sober and is caring towards me, small things, my comfort etc - that's done with full awareness but can be also seen as friendliness. so can't see any guilt coming from her end.
Trapped I'm not at all patient - i just don't want to act before i sense she is ready and especially before she starts being a little proactive which i would jump at! lack of proactiveness is either doubt or not being interested at all, in which case i can spoil things and feel very rejected too.

Trappedbyacrush · 24/07/2012 19:54

Likea and Notfor - yy I have to say our paralels are quite uncanny. Notfor, when you joined the thread I remember my jaw dropping open at some of your descriptions, and how much I thought reminded me of me and my WIQ. Likea, yes I do think that your WIQ shares a lot in common with me and my WIQ, and that you share a lot in common wit me, and when it comes to nervous chatter, my WIQ too!

I do think that alcohol makes us behave sometimes in a way that we would like to - it does loosen inhibitions, and so long as it isn't abused (god I sound like my mum) it can actually open up a lot of communication between people. Hell, I got together with dh while pissed! I know WIQ likes her drink and I think she likes it because it seems to 'set her free' a bit - as it does me too I guess.

Likea you're right about knowing which is the 'best way' - I love being with dh, and yeah, it is nice to be in a good relationship. It's better than nice in fact, but it does become quite unglam after the gloss has worn off and maybe that's my problem with wanting something more IYSWIM.

I'm actually quite tipsy right now so I don;t trust myself to write anymore, and the boys need putting to bed. Will check in tomorrow. Evening all and thanks for the advice today.

EmmaDilemma · 24/07/2012 21:26

Busy indeed! I'm extremely grateful for finding you ladies on here; all your stories and advice have really expanded my perception. Thank you.

I'll be back later with an update on my situation but just wanted to wave to Trapped; I feel for you.

I guess all you of you ladies are experiencing the same gut wrenching feelings when around your WIQs. For me its my guts, my nipples and my clitoris! I've been trying to remember if I felt like this when I met my DH. The answer is yes to a degree but more so when I was exploring my sexuality in my 20s. I believe its the elicit nature of the circumstances, the added excitment that we do fancy the same sex, the forbidden fruit. And if these feelings really are our truth, we should try to find away to live them.

NotForProfit · 24/07/2012 22:13

Emma, it's funny you should mention the clitoris Blush i'm definitely noticing when i'm around CW that things are concentrated in that area... with men it's usually more all-over. Sorry if tmi!

OP posts:
CaoNiMa · 25/07/2012 09:48

Hi everyone. Hope all is well. I just need to write down what happened last night and this morning - I'm so confused.

At WIQ's yesterday, I spent the whole day with her while she was sick. Late at night after we'd eaten dinner, she went to lie down and I stayed in the kitchen doing some work on my laptop. She appeared at the bedroom door looking all forlorn, and asked me to give her a massage. She sat on the edge of the bed and I sat behind her. It started like a regular shoulder massage, but I got closer and closer to her until my face was in her hair. It was one of the most intense moments - aside from braiding her hair, it was the most I'd ever touched her. She had a vest on, and I put my hands under it, not believing I actually had my hands on her skin.

It went on for ages, and we ended up lying on the bed, her between my legs as I gave her a head massage. I was stroking her cheek and neck, and she was making all these noises (so hot...)

I left at about midnight so she could get some sleep. She asked me to come over the next day after my yoga class. I always text her as I'm walking out of her building, and I wrote "I'm smiling all the way down the street", to which she replied "Anyone who sees you smiling like that will be happy".

This afternoon I arrived with some flowers and helped her get ready for a meeting. She's still feeling really ill, but couldn't cancel it. As I was doing her hair, she said "John [her gay best friend whom I met last week] was joking on the phone earlier, saying that what I need is for the married man to come over and make me feel better".

My face just fell. She hasn't mentioned him for ages, and I thought he was out of the picture. I am trying to understand why she would bring him up, after what's been happening between us. Does she honestly think that what we're doing ISN'T sexual? She knows I'm gay - is she just teasing me, and using me as her bitch?

When she left for her meeting (I'm staying here at hers while she's out), I kissed her cheek and she squeezed my hip. When she gets back, it's time to rectify this once and for all.

LikeA - you're right. It has to come out into the open now.

OutMy - do I really sound young? I'm 31! I hope I don't come across as immature! (Although I'm acting like a teenage girl through this ;))

outmymind · 25/07/2012 11:40

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CaoNiMa · 25/07/2012 12:49

So sorry about that!

likeatonneofbricks · 25/07/2012 13:48

we all said that Cao should act soon, i was saying how could she still not say anything with all the itimate things they aer doing! other posters too. It was me who commented about your age Cao, yo udo sound teenagerish mainly because you aer SO starry eyed but also that you seem a bit too submissive i.e. most mature people would have not accepted this strange thing where she accepts all the gestures from you and takes and takes but you don't dare to say or ask anything of her.
She may have mentioned the man to make you jealous and to get a reaction - very likely! so that you protest and say something like why do you need him - am I not enough distraction etc - I think. I hope she is not just manipulating you for her own ego and pleasure - hope she is just waiting for your direct confession.

Loveisthemessage · 25/07/2012 14:00

Cao - things are certainly hotting up for you! I'm sure your WIQ mentioned the man to get a reaction. I'd brush it off and be very nonchalant about it. I remember my WIQ saying to me she was thinking of calling a handsome guy to see if he'd go on a date with her as they'd met at a party and had a bit of a frisson. Of course this churned me up a bit but I very coolly suggested she did get in touch with him to plan a daytime rendezvous to see how the vibes were in broad daylight and this unwittingly yet instantly put her off. Of course she flatly denies she was trying to wind me up but I reckon she was wanting to see how I'd respond. I seem to recall your WIQ is quite a bit older than you which might be why Likea's come up with her age theory. Respect and admiration of an older woman, perhaps. Sorry if I've got this wrong.

likeatonneofbricks · 25/07/2012 14:12

to befair 31 IS very young in romantic sense if the situation is relatively new to a woman! i remember being very starry eyed and non critical of a man at that age! though i was more assertive. Cao's wiq dpes sound like a dominant woman so it may well suit them but Cao does need to spak up for herself. I would have done lojg ago if my wiq for SO encouraging. and with us she is also older ad more assertive, but sill i would and already try to push her a bit for some answers without much encouragement. It just sounds very young type of conduct based on all this. Anyway good luck rising it this afternoon - hopefully it will be a big relief!

likeatonneofbricks · 25/07/2012 14:14

raising it - sorry wretched notebook!