Rumours at DH's work

[Ormiriathomimus]

He is one of the few men working in this school. Last year rumour started that he was having an affair with one of his assistants. Nasty particularly because her H is an abusive twat and if he got to hear these rumours the consequences could be pretty bad. Rumour was quashed by HT would sent strongly worded memo about spreading malicious rumours.

Anyway it has started again. Assistant in question is in the process of trying to end her marriage and is in a very difficult position.

But right now, I am more concerned about me. Selfish I know but I am recovering from depression and still a bit unstable. I know he isn't unfaithful. I know they are just stupid rumours. But it hurts to think that so many people (some of whom I know socially) might beleive these rumours and in fact be spreading them. It makes me feel undesirable and ugly, middle-aged and stupid, a sap who is being take for a ride.

I can't tell you how upset it has made me feel. It had made me angry with DH for being the sort of man he is - the sort of person who gets close to other and shows that he cares about them, and lays himself open to rumours.

Can anyone understand me?

Renewing vows would be good. If I feel like it by the time we get there. It might be a good idea to suggest it to DH to gauge his reaction.

Orm, you do know that he's probably not going to do the big gesture don't you? Because if he does you will know and he'll know you know that he's just doing it to get back on your good side - sucking up in a way, even though you deserve no less. I wouldn't if I was him, it may seem like an empty gesture - would be better to continue to build up your trust with all the small things and then do the big gesture on the day you're back to 'normal', better in fact and he wakes up one day with all the muddled notions of nobility and misunderstoodness gone and he thinks what a complete and utter TOSSER I was to have jeapordised all this.

And she was more attractive than you - of course she was. She was not there all the time. Surrounded in mystery. Abusive husband he could rescue her from. He's not seen her vomiting after a tummy bug or cuddled her when her leg hair is making a bid for freedom. It's the difference between a sort of fantasy fling and real life. Fantasy fling is just that though - fantasy. If it had carried on, real life would have got in the way of their 'relationship' and he would have realised that in fact there is no contest.

My theory does mean that we would both be more attractive to Brad Pitt than Angelina Jolie btw. So remember that if you ever bump into him :o

In case anyone is wondering I would like for it to go down on record that I am stone cold sober

Erm.... The whole humiliation of the ow. I don't think is the brightest idea. I, not defending her fwiw.

See its got to come from him, he's got to want to do xyz. If it is just because he is told to, to humiliate the ow it won't work. Especially as he sees her as vulnerable and he "loves" her. Seeing her all alone and shunned by the staff could bring out his protective instinct for her.....and actually drive them closer together.

Also the head would step in at any deliberate humiliation as its their head on the firing line incase of a tribunal too. Not sympathy for ow here. Just being a realist.

It shouldn't be about getting one up over the ow at all. It should be him mobk g heaven amd earth to make this right. Trying to get one up in her, will only draw out his protective instincts. Imvho.

Errr excuse the typos. Baby and iPad I too am sober

Orm I was kind of hoping that he'd suggest renewing vows. 20 years is a biggie and it would seem an appropriate thing to do given the circumstances. I mean if he suggests it. And of course as you point out, you may not feel like it anyway. You could mention it in passing in some subtle way, maybe in a general kind of discussion about marriage and commitment. And see what he does.

I have read all the sort of comments on here about how bad that was for a marriage and I sort of nodded uncomfortably but did nothing. DH's affair has made me look at that again and realise that, through not fault of our own, just life and time, we had lost a big something that we are trying to recapture.

Orm, has your husband actually said that the loss you allude to was a contributory factor in his affair? Or is this something you've concluded?

If it's either of those things, how can either of you know with any certainty that he wouldn't have succumbed to this anyway?

I genuinely understand why you are putting pressure on yourself to be desirable to him and there are very complex reasons for this. There is never one single reason for the process that has been described as 'hysterical bonding' and the process itself can be a good thing. Good reasons for it are genuine responses to increased libido, increased intimacy and relief from the pain and horror of the conscious self. Bad reasons (that can come back to bite you later on) are competitiveness with the OW's sexuality or a flawed conclusion that the pre-affair sex life was a contributory factor in the affair.

It's sounding as though you are beating yourself up a bit for ignoring others' advice to stop-your-man-from-straying, when it's just as possible that this would have made no difference to a 50-year old man who encountered a 25-year old colleague who hero-worshipped him and brought out his rescuer tendencies.

I mention this particularly because I've seen lots of couples like you who both agree that their intimate life was highly satisfying and yet an affair still happened. The only correlation between all the different stories was the inability of one of them to put up a boundary when opportunity came knocking.

I'd hate for you both to make the mistake of believing that if things had been different between you, this wouldn't have happened.

"I'd hate for you both to make the mistake of believing that if things had been different between you, this wouldn't have happened"

I don't think that. I think it was down to him, his stage in life, the fact that he had only had one woman to love for 20 plus years, being surrounded by younger women who all thought he was wonderful, in a sense his own need for reassurance. But having been through this I can see that there are things missing which, ideally, we need to get back for my sake as much as him. I don't know if we can. We both want to. He is doing all the right things.

houseofpain - I would never actually hurt or humiliate OW. It's not in my nature. But right now it's very satisfying to imagine it. It will pass. I think I am allowed a little self-indulgence ?

I won't be suggesting any big gesture. It has to come from him, I know that. But my pride is longing for some sort of public affirmation.

Ofc, it's only natural! It wasn't your comment. It was the one about humiliating her in work, just worried for you anything like that would be counterproductive to your end goal.

But you are more switched on than that.

Orm as long as you're doing this for your own benefit, as well as for him and the health of your relationship, it's a good thing. I've seen some very bad advice given to women especially about not having sex with someone who's betrayed them and underneath all the legitimate concerns that I've expressed above, that advice often comes from an attitude than women 'give' sex and get no pleasure from it themselves. So they just can't get past this notion that having sex is like giving a reward for bad behaviour and less still can fathom that a woman denying herself a sex life is a form of self-punishment.

I'm very glad that you aren't necessarily linking the two. This question might help you further with that. You obviously had your own dissatisfactions, so what made you say no and your husband say yes when opportunity knocked? What was the difference between you?

stern - I think he felt his affair was 'safe' - that is what I have got from talking to him about it. She was married to a man who was very jealous and controlling. He was married to a woman he loved to much to leave (ha!). So it was safe to indulge their feelings knowing that nothing would come of it. Which is of course so much self-serving bollocks. He hurt and betrayed me massively even so, and I strongly suspect she was trying to force his hand by ending it because she couldn't 'have all of him' and fannying around leaving/not leaving her husband. So it wasn't all that safe. I still don't have a proper answer to what would have happened if I hadn't found those texts.

My affair such as it was was nothing really - a bit of flirting on my part, a raised heart rate, a huge sense of excitement, flattery. All of it very thrilling but my OM chose to take it from fun to serious in one fell swoop. And it wasn't safe. I was being forced to choose between OM and DH and I wasn't ready for that. My hand was forced. I don't credit myself with any huge sense of morality - if OM hadn't jumped in and we'd coasted on for months and months I can't be 100% sure it wouldn't have gone further. Dose that make sense?

Ah, so he was lying to himself that a woman who was keen on dramatic gestures, made volatile ultimatums and threatened to leave her husband was 'safe'? That's a hell of a self-delusion that existed only so that he could continue the affair. I expect he contented himself that as long as he still loved you and didn't want his marriage to end, this was permissible. That said, I do think that at some level your husband realised that the 'abuse' and unhappiness in the OW's marriage was being wildly exaggerated for his benefit, otherwise his delusion that this was 'safe' seems even more implausible. If he thought she was as unhappy as described, surely the most likely outcome of that was that she would escape the abuse and that he would encourage her to do so?

You on the other hand didn't delude yourself that the OM was safe, did you? Your hand was no more 'forced' than your husband's was. The actions and behaviour of the respective OW and OM sound more or less identical to me, it's just that you don't have that character trait of deluding yourself that an enormous threat is 'safe' so that you can carry on with something you're enjoying - and your husband does have that trait. That's a really insightful discovery, in my view.

I think one can overanalyse what the OP's H said about it being "safe". As the OP correctly noted, that is self serving bollocks. I expect that the only degree to which he thought it was "safe" is that he didn't think he would get caught because the OW was never going to leave her husband and so it was unlikely that she would tell the OP. The sad reality is that both of them probably told the other how desperately unhappy they were in their respective marriages whilst at the same time having no intention of leaving - classic affair behaviour. Be sure that they will have both lied to each other about how awful their partners were to justify their actions. If the OP's H maintains that the affair was a one way street fuelled by the OW's abusive marriage, he is a liar. He will have played the victim too with panache.

The one thing that probably is true is that he was never going to leave the OP for the OW. It was his escapist fantasy whatever pretensions of love and honour that he now tries to construct around it. Just another sad tale of a man thinking he could have his cake and eat it.

Ultimately that's why the OW is such an irrelevance now. It could literally have been anyone. It was all about opportunity not the quality of the opposition, so to speak.

What's important now is the OP's H stepping up, being truthful whenever the OP wants to ask him anything and spending every waking hour working to his save his marriage and regain the OP's trust. In a way he is very lucky because the OP wants things to work out but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to work just as hard otherwise bitterness and resentment on both sides will endure.

he didn't think he would get caught because the OW was never going to leave her husband

which gives further weight doesn't it to the idea that he didn't actually believe the abuse was that bad, or surely he would have been supporting the OW to get to safety? I don't get the impression that Orm's husband is the sort of man who would encourage a woman to stay in an abusive marriage so that his own life wasn't going to get disturbed by its demise. Do you Orm?

No, not at all. He wanted her to leave her marriage. When I asked him what would have happened if she had he just looked miserable and said he didn't know, that perhaps it would have been easier to see her. His intention was never to leave me and live with her. He says. But I am learning to take everything he says with a pinch of salt. Which is going to get unpleasant very quickly.

I rang him in tears just now when I found we couldn't get a Relate appointment and ranted at him for 10 mins. He texted a few mins later and said "I love you. I have always loved you. I will always love you. I understand why you have doubts about that but I will have to prove it to you and I will' Problem is I don't know how he can prove it to me. I dont know what I want him to do. I want it not to have happened.

I wouldn't do a renewal of vows because the original vows didn't mean very much, did they? (speaking as someone who is a celebrant for renewals)

There is nothing to stop you writing your own new vows to each other. His should be something along the lines of "I really fucked up but I swear to you and to everyone else that I am going to be a better person and treat you with the respect and love that you deserve."

It's a good question Orm, how can he prove it to you. Obviously there is no specific definable thing he can do, it is a question of time and trust. There is no magic wand that he can wave to make things better but he can be supportive and understanding and help you rebuild your self esteem. Over a period of time, you may come to forgive if not forget. The bigger issue is trust. How do you get to a point where you believe what he says?

For what it's worth I don't believe he did intend to leave you. Not because he respected your marriage vows but because this was only ever a fantasy escape for him and he blocked out from his mind where it was going to end up and the consequences of that. Judging from his pattern of behaviour, I doubt he would have had the guts to follow through and leave. That said, I think there is plenty that he hasn't told you. As I've said before, I think it's an absolute certainty that they had sex over a long period and I strongly suspect that it was her who ended it when you found out for fear of her H hearing about it. It is entirely a matter for you when you choose to demand the truth from him on those matters and no one can tell you when to do that (if ever) but until then, this will eat away at you and you will always distrust him. In your heart, you know he is still keeping things from you which makes it impossible for you to move on as a couple.

What schmarn said. I understand the path you have taken and why. But as you are starting to find, like you said yourself, it's going to get unpleasant quickly.

You can't prove or believe what he says. As he's been lying to everyone from the head to you. Not to mention, there were rumours "more" had happened. I think you'll find it hard to move on knowing there is still lies. The irony being, I think eventually he will be fighting to keep you. Not the other way around, which is how I see it. As you'll hit a brick wall with the lies.

That text. Well it's words isn't it. He loves her as well, he told you so. I'd be so tempted to ram his phone where the sun does not shine, as he's got the cheek to tell you that after already telling you he does love her.

You are actually much more calmer than I could ever be.

Orm, I agree with schmarn - there is no quick fix for this, sadly. He cannot do anything to prove to you instantly how much he loves you and how much he regrets what he has done - only time, him taking what you dish out, him being there regardless and loving you regardless will do that for you. Eventually you may learn to trust him again and forgive him (or not) - but it will take as long as it takes.

Imagine, if you like, that your love was a precious ornament - much of it is smashed to smithereens. If he cares enough, he will painstakingly build it up again, bit by bit - gluing it together as he goes. You will still be able to see the cracks, but you will also see how much care and attention he puts into repairing it. A job like that can't be done quickly - it takes time and effort (I'm talking tiny smithereens here) but you'll be able to keep an eye on progress. Eventually he will complete the job - and you'll either find it doubly precious because it's been brought back to you, or you'll decide it's too damaged and end up binning it. You can't know which way it will go just yet though.

wise words from schmarn.

Your H is probably still self deluded about what really happened but this is not surprising really and this is common during the early stages of affair discovery. It is very hard having to come to terms that you were basically a self deluded, selfish, entitled tosser rather than a noble romantic hero.

As for the big gesture - do you think you feel this because you have so many doubts about what he is telling you? Those niggling feelings are telling you that he is not being 100% honest and open?

Well, this reads to me that he started off thinking this was 'safe' and telling himself that it wouldn't go anywhere, until it got to the point when he thought he loved her and realised this was far from safe. This was a long relationship and I still think it started long before he's admitting to, at least in terms of their feelings for one another and his detachment from you. I also think that when she forced the issue and said that she was ending the relationship because she 'couldn't have all of him' he intended leaving you, as a gesture to her and in order to win her back. Not that he intended telling you all that of course Orm - he would rather you'd believed he was leaving out of sheer frustration that 'he could never make you happy'.

I just don't believe that he always thought this was 'safe'. I think he ended up seeing the danger and deciding it was worth it (as long as he didn't have to carry the can for it of course), but your discovery scuppered all of it.

I don't doubt that when he had to face the consequences and admit to what you could prove, all these fantasies about them being together evaporated and reality hit home. I don't doubt he wants to stay with you now.

But I've also got no doubt that there are still lies being told; some to you and some to himself.

Can I just put one thing to bed houseofpain. He didn't lie to the head - she didn't ask him. She specifically said 'your private life is none of my business'' All she said was that she didn't want any more rumours about staff private lives being passed around the school - she didn't deny anything because she knew nothing to deny. You seem to be determined to make this about how badly he has behaved towards others (OW and school) when that is besides the point. All I care about is how he has behaved towards m - I can't be involved in any other aspect of this.

I'm not have you read my post properly? Or any other point arises from others since then.

You want to defend him, I get that, I really do. But, your posts are starting to portray, like you know you haven't heard the whole truth and it's starting to affect your ability to move on. Which you start to be coming to terms with in your posts, that's the impression I get.

It's not a huge leap of faith on your behalf to realise he could still be lying is it? As all along it's been about his self preservation. With everyone.

So I think tbh, you've misread my posts. My post was about you.

Sorry house. I guess I am a bit defensive. You mentioned that he lied to the head - he didn't.

I am very aware that I don't trust him. I don't see how I can atm. I don't know if he is lying. I don't know how to know if he's lying. I don't think he is lying but I can't be sure. I'm in limbo. When I spoke to him earlier I said it was like being in pain and no matter how your twist and change position, the pain doesn't ease. I am like that - whatever I try to do, no matter how I look at things it doesn't get easier.

After my call he told the head he had to go home. He wasn't in a fit state to be in work. If his misery eased mine I'd be feeling fine.

I don't know what the answer is, I guess you'll see in time....maybe there is more to come out, maybe not.

But by seeing you in limbo like this, the not knowing. If he has more to tell, that is making this feeling worse as it will do, subconsciously. Then he is a shit. It's self preservation before your feelings.

Do you think counselling will help with a cards on the table moment? Rather than carry on with the not sure....or worse anything extra comes out years down the line.