Rumours at DH's work

[Ormiriathomimus]

He is one of the few men working in this school. Last year rumour started that he was having an affair with one of his assistants. Nasty particularly because her H is an abusive twat and if he got to hear these rumours the consequences could be pretty bad. Rumour was quashed by HT would sent strongly worded memo about spreading malicious rumours.

Anyway it has started again. Assistant in question is in the process of trying to end her marriage and is in a very difficult position.

But right now, I am more concerned about me. Selfish I know but I am recovering from depression and still a bit unstable. I know he isn't unfaithful. I know they are just stupid rumours. But it hurts to think that so many people (some of whom I know socially) might beleive these rumours and in fact be spreading them. It makes me feel undesirable and ugly, middle-aged and stupid, a sap who is being take for a ride.

I can't tell you how upset it has made me feel. It had made me angry with DH for being the sort of man he is - the sort of person who gets close to other and shows that he cares about them, and lays himself open to rumours.

Can anyone understand me?

I think it's good, Orm. And I bet writing it down made you feel better, a bit more organised about what you actually want to know.

But I am also wondering what the answers will do to you when you hear them.

I was once (many, many years ago) in the position of having promised my 1st H, to answer any of his questions truthfully having left him for another man (who I'd fallen in love with but hadn't slept with) and come running back the very next day, in terror at what I had done. And I did. I answered his every question. And it hurt like hell to say the things (truth) that hurt him...but I knew he valued the truth, so I told it to him. I could never forgive myself for hurting him that much.

He was very kind to me the first two weeks I'd come back to him as he could see I was in tatters, but then the quizzing started...and really, it felt like it was going to go on for ever. It seemed like he was asking me to torture him.

He drank late into the nights and questioned me to within an inch of my life.

We carried on for eight more months...we went to relate...and then I realised I had destroyed our marriage, and that I could not live with him for the rest of our lives, with me forever being the person on the other end of the sofa who was in the wrong.

Just thinking, be careful what you wish for...

Is there any sense in giving him your list and, rather than asking each question and insisting on the answer, saying to him, "I want you to see that these are the thoughts/questions that are tormenting me. Because I feel you haven't told me the proper truth, this is what my mind is doing and it won't stop until you do give me the proper truth. I understand you don't want to hurt me but, not knowing is hurting, what you've done is hurting, everything is hurting...so please can you think...can you think...how/if you are going to make things right"

Please feel free to disregard all of this Orm, but was hoping it might help.

Orm, I hope you get truthful answers and I hope you are able to deal with them. Good luck x

"I also notice you don't ask the obvious question."

What's that? What have I missed?

Great orm. Some of them he won't be able to answer because he hasn't ever thought about them and doesn't want to think about them. I suggest you just wait and let him find the answers in the monenr and the silence . Do NOT be tempted to fill the silences, this really helps the cheater. As do 'closed' questions like 'assuming you didn't sleep with her...' and any questions that require a yes or no answer and lean towards the leas painful option. Do NOT give him the questions in advance, this is important. Ask open questions like 'what happened that night when...' 'why would someone invent the rumour that...'

You do not need to sound as apologetic as you do in some of your questions. I also think you show a weird sort of respect
For him and his ow by not calling him on lying about sleeping with her. These are all things he did within your marriage. You deserve to know. If he is computing things along the lines of 'is this is as much hassle to stay as to go, you will know his Concern is him, not you Or the kids.

"Just thinking, be careful what you wish for..." Scarlet, I can't be in any more torment than I am now. And I am sorry if it makes things hard for DH but it was his choice. I don't honestly know what else to do.

I agree orm, you have to know. Though some of your questions you know already and it mighy be masochistic to stress too much. 'did you fancy her?' for example. Men don't have affairs with women they don't fancy, for whatever reason. If he lies about tht, or says anything about staying with you because he wants to 'do what's right' he's a waste of space that could be filled with clarity.

I am trying to sound calm and objective vander. But I take your point about making it too easy to say yes or no. I will change the wording on some of them. Thanks. He'll be seeing her in an hour. he is terrified - lots of chit-chat texts, not like him at all.

Orm these are good questions, but I'd be inclined to rephrase some of them in replacement (see italics below) to make them more open and I wouldn't give any assurances about trying to save the marriage just yet. The answers to these questions might change your mind after all.

1, When did it start. When did you start getting too close. When did you kiss. When did you say you loved her. When did you first realise you were physically attracted to her? When did you become aware that she was attracted to you? In all affairs like this, there are 'big moments' along the way i.e. the first realisation of attraction, the acknowledgement that you're looking forward to the contact, the first hints given to one another that something could happen, the first misrepresentation of how things are at home, the first admission of attraction, the first kiss, the first sex of any kind, the first declaration of love etc. Tell me about those 'big moments'

1. Was I being entirely paranoid last year when I felt sidelined by some of your colleagues at your BBQ? And shut out at other times. I felt very uncomfortable about the wedding ? was I completely wrong? What happened when you went back to the party when I went home to check on the kids? Did you pretend that they didn?t answer the phone so I went home and left you with a free hand?
2. How much was T this relationship affecting our relationship and our family? I have a feeling she was doing so this was having an effect a lot before Jan when you said it started to be serious? She was giving you an alternative to home and I think it was a lot more appealing than the reality I sensed you pulling away months before that, as early as the beginning of 2011
3. Did you really care that I was depressed? Or was I just a nuisance? Please be honest? If you hadn?t been blinded by T would you not have noticed how much of a bad way I was in? How did you feel about my depression last year? What did you notice? How did these feelings compare with your response to other times I've been ill?
4. Was this relationship quite as pure as you are making it out? Were you just protecting her from her life or was there something more basic? Did you fancy her? Was it that she was younger than me and more exciting? Assuming you didn?t sleep with her, did you want to? What physically happened between you? Please be honest with me about this.
5. Did you talk to her about me and our marriage? Honesty please? Considering she talked to you about hers it seems unlikely you didn?t reciprocate. Did you tell her I was cold, depressed, pushed you away and that the kids were a pita who didn?t respect you? Any or all of those? Anythnig else you told her? What did you tell her about our marriage? What impression did she have of it? Why did she have that impression? Why did she think you were having an affair with her?
6. Do you think she spread those rumours?
7. Why did you risk family?s emotional and physical safety having a relationship with the wife of such a jealous controlling man? Who only live a mile away from us. I know you said he wasn?t a risk to us but how did you know?
8. Why did you risk him hitting out at her if you loved her so much?

10. Was he in fact really so abusive? Was she spinning you a line? Was she exaggerating a little? Or were you exagerating to justify your actions to yourself and me? What actual evidence do you have about the husband's abuse, other than from what she was telling you and others? 11. When she ended it because ?she couldn?t have all of you? do you think it was a manipulation to make you leave me. Hence the further texts? And was there a chance you might have given in and left me. Was your desire to leave me the following Sunday/Monday actually because of what she had said/done? Do you think she might have miraculously found the strengh to leave her marriage if you have been free? When you said that you thought you ought to leave because you couldn't make me happy, how much of that was to do with her ending things because you wouldn't leave me? 12. What would have happened if I hadn?t found the texts? THINK about it? Be honest? 13. Do you really want me? Do you have the strength to fight for me and our marriage? Because it won?t be the old marriage any more. It will be a new one and we will both have to work hard to make it. You will need to prove to me again and again that you want to be here and you are glad you ended it with her. If you can do this I will do my damndest to forgive and move on and you know how hard I work when I am committed to something If your regain my trust and respect our new marriage will be something worth celebrating. None of this Suggest replacing with Why do you want to stay in this marriage and with me in particular?

14. Are you willing to give more or yourself to the children? Less shouting and impatience. And in return I will back you up more when you are being strict with them. None of this

I'd add one more:

How did you give yourself the permission to have an affair? What do you remember telling yourself at the time?

Why do you think you loved(d) her? Why do you think she loved you?

But vander he hasn't said anything yet about finding her attractive. So it does need to be said even if I know it in my heart.

O dear, I'm so sorry Orm, I didn't mean to give the impression I was worried about you making things hard for your DH, but rather worrying about the effect on you of hearing the answers.

I understand what you are saying though, about the answers not being able to make things any worse, as they are so bad already.

I really hope things work out for you and sorry if my post upset you.

No problems scarlet, you didn't upset me x

Basically did he sleep with her. I know there are other betrayals which mean more, but to me this would be a fairly fundamental one. Or is it that he has told you he hasn't and you are trusting thjat he has told the truth? (which I can understand)

I see orm, i would phrase that as, 'what did you find attractive about her?' he's going to be wary of hurting you so if you really want to know, you'll have to be strong. It will probably be a tale he's told himself about what she provides that he wasn't getting at home.

Yes stealth, he did say he hadn't, Actually i don't find that so unbeleivable. There are hosts of stories on the net about emotional affairs that didn't turn physical. Still it's a question that needs asking and answering.

Thanks for your erratum and addenda! I have updated accordingly.

There aren't hosts of stories about affairs that have already turned physical (i.e. kissing) that remain at just kissing for 6 months. Especially between couples who saw eachother every day, had plenty of opportunity and had declared their love for eachother. Whilst I've come across affairs where the couple stopped short of PIV sex out of some weird view of what constitutes 'sex' I've never come across one with these circumstances where nothing more than kissing went on. Sorry.

OK, I take your point stern

Fair enough Orm. When are you planning to have this conversation? I'll be thinkig about you.

Perhaps ask an open question such as 'what qualities did you find attractive about her?'

Orm, I have such respect for you. You sound so intelligent. It is awful to think of how mach pain you must be in. But think of all you have been through - you are coming across as being really strong.

Good luck for later. I hope you get the truth. I hope your DH has the balls to admit the truth to himself.

"I don't know what I actually want to know. Does that make sense?"

Yes, Orm, it makes perfect sense. You're right to be fearful because it's like a Pandora's Box... once you open it, it's open - what's said cannot be unsaid and what's heard cannot be unheard.

The truth is ultimately important, of course, but the degree of detail is something you might want to think about before you pursue it and set your values by definite disclosure objectives.

What I'm saying is that you perhaps should take some time to think and decide on how far you are prepared to go to find out ALL of the details; the details will definitely hurt you. You were floored by him telling you he loves her, as would anybody be. You will need to be prepared to find out many things that could call a halt to your marriage even if they are the truth and even if he is desperate to be honest with you - because these 'truths' will hurt you. In essence, they aren't facts, they are subjective feelings and these may come and go anyway - what he feels now or felt then may be very different things but if you ask about 'then' and transpose it to 'now', it will not be an accurate reflection on which to base your decision.

In your position, I would seek the advice of somebody qualified to help you to decide what you want to know - and whether you actually want to know it. I wouldn't confront my husband until I knew the best and worst outcome I could expect - and what I would do were my worst fears realised.

You have control, Orm, keep it... every step of the way. It will be painful, it IS painful - but never let that control slip away from you now.

I think you're right about the transience of feelings Lying and how they can change at any given point in time, but don't agree that this isn't about facts. I think there are some 'facts' here that haven't been disclosed and are essential to know before making decisions. I agree though that Orm needs to think through what her responses might be to what she hears, which is why I don't think it's a good idea to declare her decision before she's had time to reflect on his answers.

Sternface, if I didn't make it clear, I meant for Orm to know herself how much she really wants to know and how far she will take this if/when she knows everything. Not for her husband to know, he really doesn't factor at this point.

As far as facts go - Orm has had some already and they have, from what she's posted, shaken her to the core. It's Orm I have in my mind, not her husband, his hurts and peace of mind really don't come in to it but I think that, in Orm's position, I'd be taking time to take stock, not communicating, just taking time to clear my own thoughts.

... and if I didn't make it clear still:

One of my friend's husbands cheated on her. She wanted the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. She questioned - he answered. So keen was he to do as she asked, taking such pains to be completely and utterly honest - she lost all sense and asked really personal questions, thinking that as his wife, she had the right to know. Nobody really needs or wants to know what the OW/OM's 'come face' is like. They are divorced now - my friend asked - and in the interests of truthful disclosure and lack of sensitivity, he told her. She's reeling from the revelation and he's reeling from the fact that he thought the truth would set him free and they could go on with their marriage on new terms.

Horrible situation and, whilst I feel absolutely for my friend - I have a little sympathy for her husband in that he was doing what he thought his wife wanted. She can't get the picture out of her head... I don't want Orm to have more detail than she wants/needs, regardless of what her decision is with her marriage.

This instance is the reason for my post above... the affair is a FACT, he loves her is a FACT (even if he doesn't know what it is to 'love' somebody - in words, he does love her). Facts are necessary - details maybe not so much. Some things are better left unsaid.

Orm I've been through something similar and I reacted in a very similar way to you. I really understand wanting to know all of the detail, but be aware that if he does come through it will be an absolute ordeal for you. There are a lot of questions, a lot of ground to cover, it will take a long time to talk through it. Make sure you're strong enough, and be prepared to stop when you need to.

We worked through it and stayed together. It was ten years ago and we're happier together than we've ever been, but it was a hard road for the first few years.

One thing really jumps out at me, because I did the same thing at first, and that's that you've stepped up and taken control of fixing this. I remember that drive, and the surge of adrenalin that pushes you through. The problem is that you can't fix it that way. He has to step up and make his own running. You have to let go of the reins and leave space for him to make it right under his own impetus. It took me ages to realise that, and to understand that if it didn't come from him unprompted I'd never really know if he meant it and if he was the man I needed him to be. I think I was scared that if I stepped back, he'd get it 'wrong'. I had to face up to the fact that he might, but that any other way forward was built on pretense.

You need to know what you want, not what you think you need or the kids need or he wants, but what you really want. So long as your head and heart are full of him and her and them, you don't have space to really see you.

He needs to deserve your second chance and earn the possibility that you'll trust him again. You need to let him do that under his own steam.

Oh this is tricky one, I wanted to know every detail.

I never ever found out. If I had I think I would have walked but I needed to know, through not knowing this made me bitter and angry and I threw it in his face whenever possible.

Every detail he gave me hurt me, to the point we couldn't go to certain restaurants as they had been there, I even started avoiding a whole shopping centre. The whole thing made me go crazy tbh!

To the point of putting an advert in a local paper "bitch free to good home" and her mobile number

You are doing great Orm. What does affair site advise about questions, I cannot remember?