Rumours at DH's work

[Ormiriathomimus]

He is one of the few men working in this school. Last year rumour started that he was having an affair with one of his assistants. Nasty particularly because her H is an abusive twat and if he got to hear these rumours the consequences could be pretty bad. Rumour was quashed by HT would sent strongly worded memo about spreading malicious rumours.

Anyway it has started again. Assistant in question is in the process of trying to end her marriage and is in a very difficult position.

But right now, I am more concerned about me. Selfish I know but I am recovering from depression and still a bit unstable. I know he isn't unfaithful. I know they are just stupid rumours. But it hurts to think that so many people (some of whom I know socially) might beleive these rumours and in fact be spreading them. It makes me feel undesirable and ugly, middle-aged and stupid, a sap who is being take for a ride.

I can't tell you how upset it has made me feel. It had made me angry with DH for being the sort of man he is - the sort of person who gets close to other and shows that he cares about them, and lays himself open to rumours.

Can anyone understand me?

repercucctions, blasted word still does not read correct.

(repercussions, Tam :) )

Orm, none of this is an excuse for his affair. The fact that he even seems 'shocked' that you have considered leaving him is a sad testament to either just how arrogant he is or how weighted your relationship is. He should be assuming that if he doesn't get his act together quick you will tell him to go, not subtly giving off signals from which you desperately try to work out whether he really wants to stay.

You are right to keep running, keep confronting him, But you're seeing this is in very low self-esteem ways. Just because you pushed him away does not give him 'permission' to have an affair. Surely your pushing him away was also motivated by a detachment or testing from him that allowed him psychologically to have an affair in the first place. You were going to be sensing he was the cause of your distress and protecting yourself to some extent. Does it really give you that much solace that he told another woman he loved you first and foremost whilst having an affair with her? You have absolutely no idea if that is true and it seems very unlikely if he also told her that he loved her. Does it reflect well on him that he made a note to her that you were ranked 1 out of the women he was deceitfully sleeping with? Orm, he was sleeping with her. And you need to keep trusting your angry side when it emerges.

Good for you for pushing this forward and carrying on being true to yourself and not sweeping it under the carpet but you need to start envisaging yourself without him, even if you are going to stay with him, so that it is a valid choice that comes from you rather than this rather scared, insecure reaction to whatever it is HE wants. He only ended it - and I still wonder how he ended it and what understanding you have set up about communication - he only ended it as a result of you discovering it. He had not told you the truth before that, he had actively lied regarding the rumours in a way that humiliated you publicly and he had no intention of ending it or confessing to you before that discovery. The way we know that is because he didn't. You should be angry, Orm, very angry. Remember that when the run turns to rage turns to tears.

"Orm, none of this is an excuse for his affair." I know that. He knows that.

Everything he says is entirely self serving and transparent.

"I tried to reach out to you but you pushed me away" = "I had already embarked on an emotional affair with another woman so when, inevitably, you got down as I should have known you would with your history of depression, I used that as justification to devote my love and affection to another woman"

"She always knew that I put you first" = "I am a hero. Even when I cheat on my wife."

"Despite having thrown myself into an affair for the best part of 12 months with a woman for whom I professed love, I did not have sex with her" = "You see, I'm just a flawed romantic. I fell in love with her but ours was a chaste pure love even when we got caught in the school toilets."

It's the delusion and cowardice that is so disappointing.

Not sure what he could say now that wouldn't sound that way.

He wasn't caught in the school toilets.

He could tell the truth Orm and admit that his mind was elsewhere long before he says it was. One of the reasons he might be hiding this is because when this started, your depression was under control and your relationship was actually in a good phase. But that would throw a spanner in the works, wouldn't it? It would fly in the face of this story about an unappreciated husband whose wife was permanently depressed. IME this is the primary reason that people lie about when an extra-marital relationship actually started - because it doesn't 'fit' with the reasons they are giving for having an affair.

He could be truthful and say that he honestly doesn't know if he'd have taken this opportunity even if he'd been very happy in his marriage.

Because that at least would be honest. No-one knows what they would have done if circumstances were different.

"It would fly in the face of this story about an unappreciated husband whose wife was permanently depressed" He hasn't said that. he has constantly stated all along that his relationship with her was totally seperate to that with me and had nothing to do with me.

he has already admitted that they were getting close last year - but things didn't move up a step until this jan. And I felt that happen I think. I felt utterly alone at the time but thought it was my depression talking. That was what made me so angry last night - that he abandoned me when I needed him most. That was when he said he had tried and I had pushed him away. he isn't using it as a justification on the affair but an attempt to explain why he didn';t give me the help I needed. He also didn't know I had wanted to kill myself - I didn't tell him because I didn't want to see his indifference.

I also told him that I hate her. I never wanted to see her again as long as I live. it's true. I have never hated anyone before.

My anger comes from the fact that i have supported him emotionally, practicaly and financially for years. I paid for him while he went through college, I always earned more than him, I have been the coper and the do-er all our lives. Now, when he finally is earnng the same as me and we no longer have the childcare problems we had, and have a lovely home and a better life, he shifts some of his attention to some poor little damsel in distress he works with, and didn't appear to give a shit about what I was going through. THIS IS WHAT MAKES ME SO ANGRY! In fact I keep shaking with anger at the thought of it.

As for telling the truth, how do I know when/if he is?

And please don't tell me I'm hating the wrong person. I don't give a shit!

Well it's got to go somewhere, it needs to come out.

Sternface has it right. Instead of always linking his activity back to your depression (which gives him his implicit justification), he could admit that he alone was responsible for the decision to have an affair. Most of the time men have affairs because the new woman seems more exciting, sexy and new, and they are flattered and empassioned by the attention. A lot of the time the wronged wife will have done nothing wrong. The reality is that every relationship over time loses its freshness and the weak man looks elsewhere for titillation.

What is really reprehensible about this is that it feeds your own need to explain his actions. So much easier to let you blame yourself than stand up and take responsibility like a man. There will come a day when you see all of this with crystal clarity, and you will despise him.

You're right. You mentioned restaurant toilets in one of your earlier posts, not school toilets. That rumour sadly doesn't seem quite so absurd now.

I have a confession - I hate H's OW too and feel sick at the thought of bumping into her, but the hatred is slowly turning to indifference and that's why I know I am recovery.

I am pleased to see that you are now angry - this is healthy and natural and I do hope you are telling all this to your H. He needs to know what you are feeling and why.

That was when he said he had tried and I had pushed him away. he isn't using it as a justification on the affair but an attempt to explain why he didn';t give me the help I needed. He also didn't know I had wanted to kill myself - I didn't tell him because I didn't want to see his indifference.

This tells me that he was indifferent because he had already checked out of the marriage and become attached to OW. You pushed him away because of his distance and your instincts told you that he wasn't to be trusted.

Orm, forgive me if you aren't asking this, and you know I am not a believer in pushing people beyond what they're ready to deal with, but your question does seem you are.

I think he's lying. I think he's slept with her. I'm 99% sure he has, and I agree that his shock that you might even consider leaving is offensive.

He's had an affair. You were becoming severely depressed because he was having an emotional affair and you began to withdraw, and he's using that as an excuse for not cutting it dead and focusing on why you were pushing him away, but taking that affair up a notch. He's taking the fucking piss. He let you down, betrayed you, is now compounding that by lying to you so you still feel confused and can't begin to heal, and is actually arrogant enough to think if he makes enough "there there, I'm a very bad boy" noises, and "well, you always came first, sweetie" noises then it'll all go away. It won't go away until he locates his balls and starts behaving like a man, and takes responsibility for his own behaviour and the consequences. Right now, you're shouldering the responsibility for the emotional fallout. Quite breathtakingly unjust.

I think you need counselling as a couple, because he can't manipulate a counsellor, even subconsciously, because they aren't his wife and haven't years of history and love to get in the way. That's how you know he isn't lying.

The other alternative is you show him this thread, and he sees how transparent he is to people not emotionally invested in him. Hopefully, he'll see how disgusting, abusive and immoral his behaviour has been.

I'm glad you hate her. It's about bloody time your anger was directed at one of the perpetrators and not inwards, and she was palling up to you while behaving in a sickeningly disloyal way. BUT... he's her senior. Her manager. Her elder. he arguably abused the workplace relationship himself. He also abused his own boss's trust in getting her to tell people to shut it over the lying rumours, when those rumours were in fact accurate. Frankly, I think he needs counselling on his own, because his behaviour is shockingly piss-poor on all levels. How he can look in the mirror right now, let alone assume his loving, intelligent, dignified and trusting wife will remain with his sorry arse, I do not know.

Again, I'm sorry and if you don't want to dwell on all this, ignore me. But my sense is that you need to know the full story. And your gut is telling you you ain't got it. Your gut, sadly, has proven accurate. It isn't true that he's never lied openly, just by omission, because this whole thread began with his indignant denials of any affair.

I also believe the restaurant loo story, I'm afraid. It's just too weird to come out of nowhere.

*recovering

Orm, you can never know for sure that he is telling the truth, but there is a bunch of evidence to tell you that on balance he is probably still lying to you.

The fact that only this week you found out that the affair only ended because you discovered it. Before that discovery, you believed that he had been telling you the truth when he said that they had done the decent thing and finished it of their own accord. Well, now you know that they would have carried on merrily right under your nose. Put another way, but for your discovery, he would still want to be with the OW. All that has happened is that you caught him.

The other factor is the length of the affair and his assertion that they have not had sex. Virtually anyone with any experience of affairs on this message thread (either as a victim or a cheat) will tell you that people who have affairs over this length of time will not have stopped at kissing and cuddling. If you had caught him in the early days then sure that would be possible. But if it ramped up in January (which means kissing at the very least), there is simply no way on this planet that they spent the next 6 months with no physical escalation. I know you say that that doesn't matter to you but it should matter to you that he won't tell the truth.

I can't imagine how hard it must be to try to move forward without questioning his every move but you can't rebuild a relationship on sand either. Until he comes clean with all of it (and you will know in your heart when you have heard it all), you will continue this cycle of disclosures in dribs and drabs that will destroy any chance of rebuilding trust.

Orm all that fury should be directed at him - have you told him those exact words, about you being the coper and carrying him your whole lives and then when you needed him he was with her?
Of course you are angry, you have every bloody right to be. He has treated you appallingly

It's great that you're angry and you have every right to be. You can hate who you like but hopefully you will soon come to see that it is he who has betrayed you most heinously.

It sounds like your relationships has a lot of issues and it's good you're seeing them and starting to tackle them. You even said in one of your earlier posts that your relationship was pretty rubbish generally and that will have been to do with all sorts of things, but especially the affair.

Orm, you also said when he told you they had only kissed about her ending it back then that you definitely believed he was telling the truth and you didn't want to hear us say that he was lying. You know that you are fragile and that's wise, but you also now know he was lying. He was actively lying. He has relied on you and depended on you financially and practically for years and once his status is raised a bit and he's feeling strong and manly, he decides to test his virility on someone else younger and more vulnerable as an ego boost and this turns to what he thinks of as love. That's some pretty selfish behaviour and you have every right to be angry about that.

What he should do is say to you that he will answer every question you've got about the affair, that he will tell you the truth because otherwise it will eat away at you and the relationship forever and then he will try and support you through coming to terms with it all and your decision as to whether you could still be with him. Instead he went to the pub, came back drunk and told you he 'didn't know if he could make you happy', the most cliched, pathetic excuse ever given by men who have screwed around as if to frame their own cowardice and newly found status and infidelity as an act of nobility towards you. Absolutely shaming.

He could say that he understands you need to know it is definitely over with this OW if you are ever to consider having him back and so he will call her and end it whilst you are there listening or send her a letter or email which you can read and see whatever response he gets. He is not protecting you by separating these two relationships, he is protecting himself and this OW. If you are not strong enough to see or hear these things then you are not strong enough to decide whether or not you want to be in this relationship yet.

He could say that he has always kept things from you and that if this is going to be a proper beginning the relationship needs to start anew with new rules based on him regaining your trust. He could tell you everything about the affair as a way of proving this.

The fact that you didn't tell him about your feeling suicidal because you didn't want to see 'his indifference' is heartbreaking. Do you really really believe his response could have been indifference? If so why on earth do you think this man is good for you to be in a relationship with? Why are you so afraid of him? You seem terrified of discovering that he doesn't care for you enough. But you know that, Orm. You know he doesn't care for you enough, he has cheated on you, lied to you about it, hidden behind cliches and other people and let you find out through rumours which he even then continued to deny! He has been a total and utter coward with how he's dealt with this and the question still seems to be, 'does he still love me though?' rather than, how on earth can you ever love him?

Yes I have Ali.

It's ok to be angry. It's totally ok to hate the OW. You don't 'know' her, you don't need to. All you can do is judge her on her actions which are reprehensible. It's simple.

With H it's more complex as you have history, an interwoven past of intimacy, you have cleaved together as man and wife and whilst you hate what he has done, you don't hate him. But there is something more insidious at work here which is your loss of trust and respect for him which often post affair sinks a marriage. You won't want to stay married to someone you despise which is what further drip-drip revelations will do. So it's very important that H is honest, as in irrigating the wound honest, cutting away all the diseased tissue (probably the right way of seeing the OW!)and seeing himself and his actions for what they were before healing can begin.

What was his response?

Orm this must be so hard for you, but your anger coming out is part of the process and for your own mental health you need to let it out and not just turn it inward.
None of this is your fault. Yes you can say that neither you or your DH invested as much as you should in your marriage, but no-one other than him made him allow emotions to develop towards another woman. He is 100% to blame for this.

I think its probably good you're getting angry - your silent acceptance has been far more worrying.

Marriages do survive affairs but its a long process.

I do agree though that there's probably more to come out unfortunately.

Orm, I'm so sorry if what I said went too far for you. I honestly don't want to push things before you are ready to hear them, and it is always, always your choice as to what to think, feel and hear. But I do think at this point that you need to have him hear you, listen properly, and contribute more to making this better. Because he is LUCKY.

Ask yourself what you'd think if you heard this: a woman was a loving wife, financially and emotionally supported her DH though his training for a dream career, had the usual marital ups and downs... and then this. You know the advice you'd be giving anyone else posting on MN, I'm sure. It's good advice.

Yep he is LUCKY. Seconded.

Can I get a third here? And fourth...etc :)

Thirded gin hag. I believe this will be a long process for orm but we will all be here for her whatever happens.

Some great, insightful posts here Orm. Please listen to them.

If you read back through this thread in its entirety, I hope you will see some contradictions. You say your husband isn't making any excuses about being driven to an affair by your behaviour, but the statements you quote from him belie that. In one of my first posts after your discovery, I advised you to to beware of projecting why you think this happened on to the situation and to listen to what your husband was actually saying.

I can see that you have an issue with over-responsibility and a need to take what you think is your share of the blame. I've also suggested that although that can be an endearing trait in someone and you're self-evidently a truly lovely woman, that trait also suggests a need to control things. If we take the blame for something -even if only partially - we can convince ourselves that if we behave differently in future, we can prevent what someone else does.

But we can't.

So this is not just a case of you projecting your own blame on to the situation, it's also that your husband is speaking in forked tongues. On the one hand he is saying that this affair was an isolated act that had no reference to you or his feelings for you and your joint relationship - and on the other he is saying that he tried to give you support at various times but that you rejected him.

Then there's the lying.

Orm, I've met what seems like a thousand couples in your situation and there are definite patterns I notice in long relationships between people that we'd all call 'good guys'. The trust default that the other is telling the whole truth is so enormous that it becomes an unshakeable habit.

That's what I think is happening to you. Your brain cannot yet catch up with the information that for over a year at least, your husband was lying to you. So you're still in the habit of believing everything that comes out of his mouth. I really do sympathise with this phenomenon and in truth, it will take you a while to catch up.

But like others, I can only endorse that IMO he is still lying to you. Out of self-preservation mostly, but also I suspect to protect the OW who is allegedly still in a marriage with an abusive man.

Everyone is right that there can be no recovery while there are still secrets and lies. I've helped a lot of couples survive affairs and I'm one of the biggest champions of the belief that it can be done and an even better relationship formed in an infidelity's wake.

But only if there is truth and the real cause of the infidelity is ascertained and worked on. And invariably, that work lies mainly with the individual who was unfaithful.

The more I see couples, the more I think that infidelity is often purely incidental to what was happening in their relationship - there is increasingly no causal link at all. What's more revealing is how one individual responds to opportunity, compared with his/her partner. And the answer to that lies not in the couple relationship, but in the individual.