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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Living with a narcissist

404 replies

Abitwobblynow · 22/06/2012 23:55

Is hard. Busy taking one day at a time whilst I work on myself and developing stability. He isn't horrible but he isn't available either.

Anyway, now that my eyes are opened, it is sad/interesting to see the mini-moments that announce his narcness, that I was so blind to before! If I see them, I can either set boundaries or self-soothe to stay calm.

Last weekend, he tells me he bought a Ferrari. *

So, phone rings (he is on a business trip). Telling me about his evening out with adoring female acolytes (he likes them best). I started telling him about two of our friends, who are having issues.

Silence, and then: well then. I must go.

I have come on so much. I used to be destroyed, now I feel vaguely sorry for him. It must be awful to be that empty.

*Don't worry. Whilst I did not cause him, cannot cure him and certainly can't control him, it went down on the list with all the other toys for misappropriation of marital assets when the time comes.

OP posts:
Abitwobblynow · 01/07/2012 12:27

Garlic - very open to opinions. I would so like to hear your thoughts and objections. So many people have said the same thing, therefore it is an issue.

You know, I agree with the concept that affairs happen because a hole has been allowed to develop in the marriage, where the OW steps into.

I bear very little rancour towards the OW because I think she got used. I think the issues are his. I really have processed my rage and blame towards this foolish person who was at the end of the day, trying to process in an imperfect way her own issues.

However, one cannot address the 'holes' in the marriage if the other person refuses to respond.

I do not see my H as an inherently nasty person, but his self-absorbtion and his defenses are SO HUGE that he will sacrifice everything to them. And that? Is quite hard for me to get my head around. Surely common human decency would make some alarm bells ring - hey, they way I go about my life really doesn't work etc etc ... but they don't.

All I can do is keep working on my goals and 'my' holes, and eventually I will get to a place where I have built up a life for myself, and can let go with sadness, rather than rage. This really is about me. I do hope that makes sense. Wobbles is quite canny sometimes!

OP posts:
garlicbutt · 01/07/2012 16:21

Thanks for your nice reply, Wobbly. Good to hear you're taking care of you.

I agree with the concept that affairs happen because a hole has been allowed to develop in the marriage

Sociopathic people simply do not have the same 'relationship' equipment in their brains as the rest of us. To them, we are all just objects - like game pieces to be moved around on the stage of their inner drama. There was no hole in your marriage because the marriage itself was false, if you take 'a marriage' to mean the interplay of give & take that it usually is for NTs. In this context, the fact that he took up with OW means only that she offered a new dimension to his game. Like an extra power in World Of Warcraft.

The hole is in his personality, Wobbly, not yours or your relationship. To him, there is no real world outside himself. He creates his dramas to populate the howling, lonely emptiness inside his head. It's sad. But you didn't empty him, neither can you fill him (I realise you've understood this now). It's not you. It never was.

garlicbutt · 01/07/2012 16:24
  • It's only sad from an NT point of view. Sociopathic people don't perceive themselves as missing out on love and relationships. They haven't got the equipment to understand what we're talking about, let alone to wish they had it!
Abitwobblynow · 01/07/2012 17:35

It is interesting you say that. I had a fallout the other day, where I was reprimanded in a pretty public way. It was ackward, and made the people around us ackward too. The reprimander and I avoided e/other.

But then, I reflected on it and thought that actually I deserved it. I forgave myself in the way I behaved (but will work on it) and understood that that person's way of being is different to mine.

Next time I saw him, I gave him a goodbye kiss on cheek which turned into a hug. HE apologised to me, and I told him I was glad he told me off. I apologised too. His gf saw us and her uneasy face turned into a smile and a farewell hug.

And that, I thought, is what it is to be human, it wasn't great to feel like a lemon, and secretly admit it was deserved, but the JOY of finding he did care and we both cared was wonderful.

It makes life so rich. I don't know how a person cannot be like that.

Another little moment: if I turn my head to share a look, I am ignored. I see other couples, as the wife turns her head he is leaning in to listen. As 90% of communication is non-verbal...

What is NT? And surely narcissists aren't sociopaths, just self absorbed!

OP posts:
Abitwobblynow · 01/07/2012 17:43

I disagree that the dynamic of your relationship is "not his fault" but my disagreement is complicated and perhaps you're working towards your own development on this. I wouldn't want to interfere.

Go on!

OP posts:
garlicbutt · 01/07/2012 18:05

Love your post about the row with a friend, Wobbly. Yes, that's what it's like to be human in the usual way :) You're spot-on about the small communications we do all the time, as well. He could mimic this, if he so chose, but could never do it instinctively and would need to see a 'benefit' before bothering.

The term sociopathy covers all the Cluster B personality disorders. In the next DSM the sociopathic PDs will all be lumped together, with descriptors such as "with Narcissistic tendencies" tagged on. This is to reflect the fact that all Cluster Bs feel this emptiness where an identity should be and have rigid personalities, allowing only certain fixed patterns of thinking/feeling. The patterns applicable to each patient will determine their 'tendencies'.

NT means neuro-typical. Sociopaths use it when referring to people with normal personalities. They also say "Nons". People on the autistic spectrum also use NT; I don't know whether they use Nons as well.

It's not your husband's fault that he's a sociopath. But it is the fault of his sociopathy that your relationship was imbalanced. It would be silly to ignore this massive factor and go down the route of taking blame on yourself. It's more important for you to re-acquaint yourself with ordinary, full-spectrum human relations so as to be fully functioning from now on. I worry about your doing this while still living as one of your partner's 'game pieces'. If you're determined to continue as you've planned, I hope you're managing to shore yourself up with plenty of NT support!

DoingItForMyself · 01/07/2012 23:02

"all Cluster Bs feel this emptiness where an identity should be and have rigid personalities, allowing only certain fixed patterns of thinking/feeling."

wow that sounds a bit too familiar - why haven't I heard about these cluster Bs before?!

garlicbutt · 01/07/2012 23:16

It was both a shock and a massive light-bulb for me, too, DoingIt.

If it's all new to you, follow the links from wikipedia and have a look at the first post on en Emotional Abuse thread on this board.

Abitwobblynow · 02/07/2012 10:14

Garlic, could you tell us your story? I know I go into a lot of detail but I am a person who likes to know 'why'. Until I know 'why' I can't let it go. So I obsessed about his affair, until I found that it was a 'split self' affair - which he started because I 'didn't care about him'. (That was when I gave up trying to reach him 20 years after my very first, misguided attempt, and withdrew).

So, now it all makes sense. It wasn't about love, it wasn't about me, it was about 'being good and caretaking' at home and still having family, whilst getting 'feeling alive' somewhere else, in a way he didn't have to take responsibility for. So now it makes sense, the affair is irrelevant, I now feel rather sorry for the OW (who got totally used and humiliated), and I know that I can't fix what I have no control over.

Truly truly getting my head around the emptiness of narcissism is another matter... Grin

So, what was it about your relationship you were around that left you feeling confused and empty, what was the straw as it were, what did you become aware of, what did you decide to do?

Doing, how are you?

OP posts:
garlicbutt · 02/07/2012 12:44

Heh, Wobbly, I've told my story at interminable length with previous usernames Grin I'll do a summary - in logical order, which is not how I experienced it!

Was the scapegoat child of a psychopath (definite; I suspect diagnosed) and a narcissist (informal). Being the scapegoat may have forced me to recognise the abnormality to an extent - I have some weird siblings - but it was still all I knew; I was shaped by it. I was/am a mass of PD 'fleas'. Careened from one all-consuming, self-absorbed nutcase to the next: friends, flatmates and boyfriends. Now I've cut out the loonies, I'm left with the grand total of 3 friends :(

My most outstanding skill was my ability to hold the correct mirror up for sociopaths to see themselves as they wanted. This eventually led to a very successful career in advertising (!) but I was being continually abused in my home relationships. X1 is a classic Narcissist. After him, a long-term flatshare ended when mutual friends pointed out how maliciously she treated me. X2 is a psychopath. At the time I married X2, I started working for a Narc bully. Instead of leaving promptly like my predecessors, I believed I could 'handle' him so, of course, he got worse. In my marriage, I simply blamed myself and thought X needed me. Hah.

I had a breakdown. The work situation escalated. X2 left me, as I was too distressed to perform as he wished; we started a divorce. I was made redundant; X bullied me into a ridiculous financial agreement; I ended up losing my lovely flat, career, health, literally everything. The breakdowns were cataclysmic. My therapy started with exercises to remember who I am Shock

Many, many years on, my sense of identity is still pretty fragile. I realise I've always had one - I like 'me' - but, due to the circumstances of my life, am unsure of having the right to be myself or even how to be. Other people have always told me who I am, rarely in a good way, and those closest to me depended on me to reflect them in a positive light, having no interest in who I really am. That may look very odd to most readers but I think you'll understand, Wobbly. Currently I'm living on the poverty line, in a place not of my choosing, and am lonely due to understandable social insecurities. A kind of PTSD.

It worries me when I hear women saying "I can handle him", as I used to. It means they're pinning their identity on their ability to resist abuse. That's damaging. Their boundaries are evidently messed up, since they're willing to tolerate attempted abuse.

It wasn't about love, it wasn't about me - No, it never was. Pisses you off, doesn't it? The only thing to do is get over it (preferably more efficiently than me!)

My divorce aftermath was useful to the extent that I began practising boundaries with him. But I didn't 'win'. It would have been better for me to have severed all links entirely, then do the forensic psychology in a consulting room. If I'd had therapists who knew about life as an NT shaped by PDs, I'd be making a better recovery. I hope you can find one.

I am a person who likes to know 'why'. - Me, too. I would say read as much as you need, to understand that around 1 in 10 of the superficially "human" people around us actually have no concept of other people as living, breathing, thinking, feeling creatures, and what this means to you. But BE CAREFUL! All the time that you focus on HIS disorder, you're still reflecting him; it's still all about them. Ergo, you're still in HIS world, poncing around on his imaginary stage. You need to break out, feel the cold but fragrant air in NT world, and get living.

DoingItForMyself · 02/07/2012 12:55

Love your last paragraph Garlic.

DoingItForMyself · 02/07/2012 12:56

Wobbly, I've been better! Have posted a little hand-holding message this morning due to 'wobbles' about H & access visits, but feeling a bit brighter now thanks. Told him to Fuck off and slammed door on him when he popped round earlier, which set off some of the emotions I'm trying to keep buried.

garlicbutt · 02/07/2012 13:01

Told him to Fuck off and slammed door on him - Hope you're feeling PROUD! Grin

DoingItForMyself · 02/07/2012 13:02

Dunno about proud! Felt bloody good to let it out at him, but then I collapsed into tears at the prospect that he's won again - I'm an over-emotional mess and he gets the DCs again tonight :-(

porridgelover · 02/07/2012 16:47

Doing, isn't there something enjoyable about letting rip like that? Kinda like being on a diet but enjoying a cream bun just once? Grin Grin
I have done that but got to a point now where I just cant be bothered to lose my temper with him....because when I did I knew that in his head he could file it as a 'win' for him ('see, see...she lost her temper, told you she was completely unreasonable, no wonder I fell out of love; I wonder if I'm being abused?').

Garlic like Wobbly I find your posts very interesting. You sound like you have come through a lot...all the best people haveSmile

DoingItForMyself · 02/07/2012 16:54

It is a bit like a cream bun Porridge - enjoyable at the time, but then you feel annoyed with yourself for 'being weak'! I have been very reserved sending an email about access dates. I deleted several parts which could be read as being emotionally charged or 'making a point' and went with factual. I'm learning to detach but it ain't easy!

springydaffs · 03/07/2012 06:58

YOu need to - or could you please - write a book, garlic. Make you rich (win/win Wink ). I'm fed up of looking out for posts from you and only getting snippets of info - bit of a tease...

at the moment I have cut out all Ns from my life and have ended up on quite a windswept island. You're lucky to have 3 friends, garlic - all mine are victims of Ns in one way or another: generalisation there, but I am beginning to despair that I can attract anyone who is healthy and wonder how healthy I am if I am attracting very unsatisfactory relationships. Or that everyone is fucked.

garlicbutt · 03/07/2012 14:28

Hah. We should collaborate on the book, Springy. Hole up together in a bar marble tower, with only passing randoms each other for company, dedicating our lives to having more fun perfecting our knowledge.

Now all we need is a very large advance Wink

porridgelover · 03/07/2012 14:45

My wise counsellor (who I trust hugely as they havent put me wrong so far) says that we attract people at our own level of self esteem.
So I decided that I would work on the latter.

So far, I have had one bite...one person that I think could be a friend in the future. My confidence in this is so blown, that I am going very very slowly.
Outside of that, my other 'friends' have/are fading away as I am only prepared to meet them halfway Grin

As for a relationship, having always been afraid of men (took a failed marriage to teach me that) I am just working on friends at the moment and men will have to wait. Hopefully, before I die I'll get to understand what a real relationship is like.

janelikesjam · 03/07/2012 14:45

Sorry to butt in here. I think Ns find your weakspot and goad or maniuplate it relentlessly. Without your "weak spot" you (or I) would have told them to "Fuck Off" many moons ago. So whilst Abit, I understand your motivation to "understand them", and I would have described myself that way too, I now actually think thats not really whats going on. There is an entrapment due to victim's area of weakness and thats whats played out and what "you" are trying to understand.

janelikesjam · 03/07/2012 14:48

And (sorry if I did not make it clear) that entrapment cycle due to area of weakness cannot be resolved "in relationship" with the N. What is needed is your assertion of your power, your justified anger, your needs and your absolute refusal to be disrepsected.

Triffiddealer · 03/07/2012 14:53

Garlic also wanted to say that 3 friends sounds great. One true friend is worth a million fair-weather ones, so if you've got 3 of them you are a rich lady.

Thanks for writing up your story - i've got snippets here and there and always thought you've given extremely wise advice/help on the threads and now I understand why. Hope things start looking up for you soon.

uselesslife · 03/07/2012 14:59

oh dear
I don't really know why I haven't seen these NPD traits before
DH left on Sunday night
He ticks all these boxes, it's unbelievable
I've been trying to figure out why I can't fight it, why I always give in, seems it is common

DoingItForMyself · 03/07/2012 15:28

Useless, its sadly all too common - If Garlicbutt's 12:44 post is correct (not that I'm questioning it Garlic!) then "around 1 in 10 of the superficially "human" people around us actually have no concept of other people as living, breathing, thinking, feeling creatures ".

It would seem from the posts on MN that this is a depressingly realistic figure. Once you accept that and realise that nothing you can do will fundamentally change anything in your relationship, its surprisingly free-ing!

With all the heartache and the practicalities and the financial worries, its still a blessing to wake up one day and realise that your life is your own, your choices are yours alone (you know you will take others' feelings into account when making good choices, as you are a decent human being, but at least you are using your opinions and your own priorities to make those decisions!)

How are you doing? x

uselesslife · 03/07/2012 15:38

I'm ok
I really couldn't care if I never see him again
But it's really difficult trying to stay strong, not let him back into my head
I'm a normal caring person, I will naturally have sympathy if he looks to be hurting
but I can't let him do this to me anymore