Will anyone admit to...?

[Just5minspeace]

...having an affair that no-one found out about?

A few of my friends have had affairs and their significant others have never found out. One of my friends justifies it as "getting back at men for all the years they've done it to us"... Don't really agree with that, but each to their own.

Stern, I just wanted to come back to you on your post upthread in answer to my question. Yes, I accept that there was an active choice (on both sides) at the start and so therefore fewer excuses as to why it started. I'm not attempting to make excuses because I know that none will be acceptable, especially if I abide by that clear cut, black and white world in which we seemingly live in. But having done what I have done I am now in a position where it is just not that simple for me (and maybe others) to walk away.

If it is a case of saying hands up if you are guilty then yes, my hands are up. But the reason they are up is not straightforward. Maybe it is down to my personality traits, I don't know - and perhaps I should heed your advice of finding a good therapist who might be able to tell me.

I am going to say goodbye to this thread, I have only posted a couple of times on a MN thread (similar subjects) and one ended ended in absolute shambles. I don't want to end up upsetting anyone with my comments because I do acknowledge that by the very nature of what I am trying to convey I will not be well received. I just wanted to briefly put my position across and to say it really isn't always that straightforward. That doesn't make it right, it's not an excuse, but that is the truth for me.

Back from the treadmill and still pondering....

Stern's post at 13.15.51 is, I think, unerringly accurate. I think that perhaps some men - and women - do not call what they do an 'affair'. They don't think of it in that way and they don't see it as cheating in the strictest terms. Some might see it as 'inevitable' or a 'natural progression' and take pains and great care to ensure that their actions are not discovered. It is possible to do that. I'm surprised that so many people get caught out given that there is so much online discussion on the subject, so much so it almost forms a 'How to' manual.

Guilt is a very subjective emotion; some people feel guilt over something that another person never would feel guilt over. I think the same is true with 'affairs'. If you can maintain your primary relationship, keeping your secondary one in a different head-space, then yes, I think it's perfectly possible to service both relationships. Any guilt would be derived from the primary partner discovering the other relationship. I think this is also how some people can love more than one person at a time, if they love at all.

I think Stern's point about 'something missing' from the person cheating rather than the relationship they're cheating on is really pertinent and I completely agree with it. I think we carry luggage from childhood and that can manifest itself into behaviours that the person perhaps doesn't even realise that they are capable of them.

I also think that the excuse 'it just happened' could also become 'what just happened?', such is the intensity of spending time with another person who appears to 'complete' you, with the missing emotions, senses and behaviours that you're lacking - or perceive to be lacking - in your life. What is terribly sad is that - putting aside the damage to the family(ies) - the unfaithful partner may never again find what it was that attracted them to their primary partner - and, if discovered unfaithful, will carry the guilt of that with them. I don't believe that anybody who has been unfaithful, doesn't feel pain and guilt at the point of discovery. Very sad.

If only we could all just have 'do over' buttons...

RB, you have every right to post, and I don't think you are upsetting anybody

RB, I dont think you should leave the thread either, you havent upset me at all. But I do reserve the right to disagree, particularly with "its complicated". It really isnt.

Sometimes it hurts to do the right thing (I know that very well myself), but its worth it in the long run. Ime, doing the right thing hurts but doing the wrong thing hurts more and for longer.

No one should leave the thread.

But the fact is no one who is going to be directly hurt by your actions is going to care one little bit how 'complicated' you're finding it or how 'difficult' it is for you. Because it's going to be a whole fuckingdoodle load more 'complicated' and 'difficult' for them. And they have (very often) done nothing to deserve it. They don't get any pay-off, they don't get any secret thrills of excitement or 'overwhelming passion' to sweeten their confusion and help them deal with how 'difficult' it is for them.

Life isn't black and white. You don't just live with complete blinkers on so that you can only see your DH or DW. Of course you don't. But like Bogeyface said everyone can chose to walk away before it even starts to get into those grey areas.

You might be able to fool yourself that it's not truly your fault because life is grey and gets complicated. But I doubt you would fool anyone else observing your behaviour.

'A thousand mile journey begins with a single step'

you can turn back, it might be very difficult but you can decide not to take any of those steps.

I am struck y the parallels to something like alcoholism. Nobody has one drink and finds themselves stuck in a situation they can't get out of.
They have many many drinks, sticking their heads in the sand when the line has been crossed.

Sternface, saying that my post is passive-agressive after reading your own post and particularly your last sentence is surprising to say the least.

I do not have 'hopes' for my relationship. My relationship has been fantastic so far, the best that has ever happened to any of us until now. It may all go wrong. You know nothing about me but I have lived enough to be grateful for the 10 years of happiness and the two children resulting from the relationship I have already experienced.

For sure I have many character traits, some nicer than others. I do not think any of the very long and well argued posts you have written here apply to me or my husband. But that is probably another problem with people who have affairs. Because we are deluded and are used to lie to ourselves, I cannot see all these things that are self-evident to you. You believe you have a full explanation for how affairs happened and who the people who get involved are and behave. I told my story; because it does not fit your script you have rewritten it. I do not feel defensive about it, just a bit surprised that so many intelligent, well-articulated women seem to believe this is the only area of life you can explain any human behaviour with one single theroy.

good post camaleon

Well, its a shame that not all of us are perfect

The factors that make us all unique individuals will inevitably result in us all having personality traits that are more desirable as well as less so. And very often we will make mistakes or hurt people along the way either knowingly or not. There are of course rules, ideals and laws, but life really isn't always going to be as straightforward as that. For some, maybe they can put their head before their heart. For others that won't be the case. Both are validand important personalities, and BOTH can cause hurt. They are just different.

Very true, crystalball and I agree with camaleon's post too.

People make errors of judgement; whether they feel they could have avoided it - or more sadly, that they couldn't.

All the judgements here are over-simplifying what is not always a simple thing. The analogy of 'not having a child but still being able to have an opinion' really isn't relevant. It's more along the lines of 'not having a child but having an opinion on childbirth'. Your opinion is based on nothing at all as you haven't been through it.

It goes without saying that the choices one makes dictates the life they lead - and the lives of people they live with, but what of the circumstances and events that lead to life change? Who can foresee those? Nobody can and that is really the point.

There was a recent thread on AIBU about whether you'd tell your partner that you had a crush on somebody else or found somebody else attractive, something like that. I was firmly of the view that I would never tell and that I think it's better to keep quiet. I was roundly and robustly challenged on this with many posters saying that:

1. Their relationships were stronger for being 'open and honest'.
2. They pointed out attractive women to their partners and vice versa.
3. They had no problem with a partner being physically attracted to somebody else (a celeb, that is) and fantasising about them. Some apparently have a 'get out of jail free' card arrangement, should such a 'celeb' opportunity present itself.
4. Some had no problem with their partner getting 'turned on' by somebody else as long as 'he brought 'it' home' for them... which is something I personally would find repulsive. BUT, most of all:
5. These same posters, whilst glibly 'right on' about their open, honest and true relationships being stronger for supporting their partner's crush on a 'celeb' - would absolutely not countenance this were the 'crush' to be somebody 'real', at work, for instance.

It is not likely to be a 'celeb' somebody who turns a head; it will be somebody real - somebody in real-time and real-life proximity to a partner who will build a relationship with them - a real relationship, whether that is work or friendship based. Relationships are so very complex and the armchair 'psychology' applied has no real value with the same dogmatic and jaded responses given without understanding of the position.

A woman I know is tearing herself into pieces having fallen for a married man. She is also married - and admits, quite happily married. Or rephrase that, she WAS happy until she met the OM. She feels he is the person she should have been with. He's a bit older than her, 15 years or so, so when he got married, she was just a baby. He feels the same way. Neither of them will upset their status quo for the sake of their families. That seems a very sad circumstance to me. Nothing is ever as it seems and I think many secrets are kept in the interests of keeping family life together.

I hope never to follow her path; it looks fraught with tears and sadness but I can't help feeling very sorry for them both. I know better than to say, 'never', but I watch for the signs and would, hopefully, bolt.

I know that I'm not perfect and never will be - and that's why I can't bring myself to judge other imperfect people.

I think there is some misunderstanding about the notion of 'scripts' in this context. This does not mean that all people having affairs will behave the same way, with the same outcomes. It just means that because by their very nature, affairs involve a degree of deception, lying and putting one's own pleasure before others, there will be a set of behaviours and underpinning attitudes in order to support those actions.

That doesn't mean that people behave that way all of the time throughout the rest of their lives, or that they consistently behaved that way before. And because we are fallible human beings who don't always behave in the way that is ideal, there will often be situations in life that we can look back on and agree were not our finest hour.

But if we can't or won't look back and agree that those behaviours were there and if we are in denial about the fact that we were selfish or cruel at some point, it suggests that those behaviours and attitudes were not isolated to a brief period or situation, but are traits that tend to define the way we normally operate. Which is a problem for ourselves as well as others with whom we relate.

So it's not that your story doesn't fit a 'script' camaleon - in fact your posts bring to life most vividly the behaviours and attitudes I referenced earlier in the thread. It's that you don't acknowledge in your posts that those behaviours ever existed.

Not sure what you are referring to sternface with your last sentence.
Only judging by your rewriting my own story I can say you are totally wrong on my own case. No idea about others.
You wrote: "We tried to back away but we met up again on a business trip shortly afterwards. Neither of us asked if the other was attending. Looking back, we both realised there was a strong likelihood of that happening, but neither of us wanted to take responsibility for going ahead anyway"

Both of us withdrew from this trip that was part of a much bigger professional project and missed two other trips despite this being quite a dangerous move professionally. I had to explain to my boss why I did not want to go and he was not impressed. I was pretty young and thought I was not up to the professional challenge. English is not my first language and he interpreted as me being scared of working in English. None of us knew the other was doing the same. We were not in contact.

For very different reasons we were compelled to go to the trip (no other person could do from any of our work place) where we met again and both of us checked the programme before accepting the trip because we did not want to meet. Moreover, when he had to accept he tried to bring his wife who could not go due to some professional commitment. So we tried it all not to meet again but it did happen. Coincidences happen. And yes, we found ourselves overwhelmed by what was happening without planning it. And we resolved it in 4 days because we thought it was the only honest way to go about it, with his wife and with ourselves.

What would have been the 'right' thing to do sternface, for a real selfless, good human being?

I am sure if he would have had children we would have tried to put it behind and he would be (perhaps) one of these persons who had an affair and got away with it. I still do not see how we fit your personality type as you have so clearly explained here, although it is (apparently) clearly emerging from my posts otherwise

Amused at how the thread goes from simple admissions to convoluted outrage and moralising.

Here's the scoop - 50,000 years of evolution and counting ain't going to change anytime soon....

YOu are right Whatmeworry. The thread has lost its own purpose. But the simple admissions had the potential to portray a 'range of stories' instead of this kind uniform model that is so often explained in here.

Camaleon.

Just small point. He didnt have an affair though did he? He had a one night stand and then left his wife. I dont see that what happened to you is in any way relevant to this thread tbh, as you didnt actually have an affair imo

That's an oxymoron that doesn't really take this thread anywhere whatmeworry. By definition evolution means that humans adapt their behaviour as time goes by, but if you mean that human beings will always be fallible then I can't see how anyone could disagree.

Camaleon it doesn't matter what my opinion is of the 'right' thing to do if you are a selfless person. No-one is selfless all of the time. It's more about acknowledging that there were other options that weren't taken - and that this wasn't about 'destiny' or incredible foresight, but active choices and a degree of good luck, that a decision that was taken after 4 days of knowing a person, turned out to be the right one for you both, especially if as you imply, neither of you acknowledged what was self-evident behaviour at the time - some (perhaps understandable) selfishness that this relationship was too important to give up, even though it's existence would hurt others. You both put your happiness first.

Now often couples in your situation will say that the selfishness was short-lived and only applied to their relationship's beginning. That might be correct too and so this is where the 'luck' comes in. Luck that despite the inauspicious portents and insufficient time to assess someone's character and personality before making a decision, it turned out to be the right one. And that might still work as long as the couple are still invested in the relationship and have the same objectives. Where it falls apart sometimes is when those objectives diverge at some point i.e. one partner wants something to which the other is an obstacle. That's when the earlier selfishness might get resurrected, especially if the obstacle gets in the way of the other's pleasure again.

Other couples who've started that way go about things more rationally though. They acknowledge the selfishness and don't assume that it was a one-off. They surmise that if they were both once capable of putting their pleasure above the risk of someone else's pain, there's a possibility that they might do that to eachother at some point, so they do some work on themselves, acknowledge and admit the behaviour and find their relationship is often stronger as a result. Their relationship success and couple-fit is therefore less about luck and more about pragmatism about human failings and a degree of work on their individual selves.

That's an oxymoron that doesn't really take this thread anywhere whatmeworry. By definition evolution means that humans adapt their behaviour as time goes by, but if you mean that human beings will always be fallible then I can't see how anyone could disagree

This thread isn't going anywhere anyway.

The only oxymoronic thing i see going on here is the denial that somehow people won't carry on being people and shag each other unsuitably.

Incidentally, the extra detail you have included about your joint attempts not to attend that trip still amount to the same thing. I don't think that was 'destiny' but a series of choices. It didn't surprise in the least that your husband tried to get his wife to attend, because that (subconsciously I'm sure) passed some responsibility on to her for what he was about to do. There were of course other choices e.g. tell her about the risk and what he was frightened of, decide that he shouldn't go because he knew instinctively what would happen if he did, resist the relationship when he got there. The same for you too, although without the addition of a partner (presumably you were single?).

There's nothing inevitable or 'destined' about this. It's about choices. Sometimes we aren't aware of how active they are at the time and so we delude ourselves that things happened because of 'fate', but it's more worrying if we're still deluding ourselves about this, years after the event.

Given that so many posts acknowledge that people are fallible and will always make choices that hurt others, I can't see this 'denial' you mention whatmeworry.

You are almost right bogeyface. But I do believe that, under other circumstances (i.e. children) what happened would have happened anyway, but it would have not broken his family. At least not for 4 days together.
And when we had our first night together we did not know the consequences. We just did it. My post was more in answer to the statement that these things do not happen 'out of the blue'.
I guess other people have similar stories, where you just find yourself in this situation and you do not really control it (although theoretically you know you should). Because of the harm you can cause to your official partner and children you may embark in an affair long term or you may just do it and keep it as a beautiful memory not to ever be shared with anybody.
There is not always a plan or a stereotype in personalities. Your first choice of partner is not always the right one for the rest of your life. You should never take your relationship for granted because you are 'not that kind of person'.
I had a pretty active sexual life before I met my partner with two rules: never someone from work, and never married. This was for very selfish reasons. I did not want the drama, just the fun. I broke the rules once and it changed my life dramatically but it could have ended as an affair. I can imagine many other persons in our situation taking the affair path without linking it to some kind of flaw in their personality applicable to all of them.

Sternface, stoy the analysis. Really. You are wrong. It was a coincidence. I don't believe God intervened, but it happened despite our efforts. It must be so much easier to believe that if you are a certain type of person this kind of things will never happen to you.

I wonder if you focus on "destiny" "Beautiful memory" and falling in love after mere hours because you dont want to accept the simple fact that you shagged a married colleague on a work trip. And suggesting that if he had had children then he wouldnt have left his wife straight away makes it sound worse!

It worked out and now you are very happy and I wonder if thats why you are trying to gloss over your marriage's ignoble beginning.