OW perspective

[ListenBeforeJudging]

I'm fully expecting a flaming...this will be long.

I've spent many months lurking and reading the posts about all the affairs and suspected affairs and to be honest, it's helped me get over my own hurt. It's not often that the OW perspective is aired and I wanted to just let you all know that we're not all evil home-wreckers. There are always two sides to the story.

I had a male friend at work. We were good friends for quite a long time - nothing more in it. Then one day, out of the blue, he confessed that he'd fallen for me. I was gobsmacked, hadn't seen it coming and immediately distanced myself - I was angry with him as I didn't know what he wanted me to do with that information as a) he was married and b) I'd never thought of him like that.

I had a lot of time invested in our friendship and knew him well (albeit only at work) and knew he wasn't the typical straying type. I considered him a genuine friend so over time we talked it through. He confided that he felt that his marriage had broken down and that he'd been wanting to leave for at least two years (they'd been married for 8, had married young, no kids and it had descended into something platonic). He was terrified of leaving as he knew his wife was still in love with him and would be very hurt. His whole adult life, his family and all his friends were wrapped up with her.

For months we tried to put the situation behind us and carry on as normal but he told me that for the first time, he knew that he had to leave as if was capable of feeling the feelings he had for me there was no way back to fix his marriage.

We became closer and I started to develop feelings for him but still nothing happened between us. Then he told me that he was going to tell her that it was over. I was away and didn't see him for a week and when I came back he said he'd told her that he wanted out and that the 'wheels were in motion'. It was then that our affair began. We fell deeply in love.

With hindsight this was my biggest mistake and greatest regret. Long story short she was devastated, he couldn't go through with the pain he was causing her and for the next two years we had an on/off relationship (while managing somehow to have a consistent friendship) while he tried to extricate himself from the situation.

Then she found out. He cut me out of his life 'temporarily' while he 'sorted things out' (by this point we no longer worked together). I waited 3 months before seeing the light and telling him that it would never happen and that it was over. 4 months after that he left her. It was too late for us. There had been too much pain caused.

He was the love of my life. I still miss our friendship. I've felt the worst pain of my life over this.

My point to this story? I never planned to fall for him although I accept that I made some bad judgements and got in over my head emotionally. I've spent the last two years regretting what happened. I dream about his (now ex) wife often and want nothing more than to contact her to apologise for the part I played in her hurt - but I know that would just be indulgent and of no value to her when she's trying to move on.

My genuine belief is that if all was well in a marriage there would be no reason for a man to find solace/confidantes elsewhere. My advice? Talk about your concerns with your DH - before things get to the point that you can't communicate anymore.

yeah, right, platonic. That line got wheeled out by my H to friends, family and most definitely the OW. She's as thick as two short planks if she believes it, given that I'm sat here pregnant having thrown him out to move in with her.

Get a grip woman. It's not the wife's fault if her husband is a shallow, selfish, lies-as-easily-as-he-breathes dog with two dicks. It IS the OW's fault if she knowingly agrees to begin a relationship with any man who is still living with, and committed to, his wife.

You just can't see it can you? It wasn't a love story. It wasn't a sad, unfortunate mistake. It was a sordid fuck dressed up with Mills and Boon sweet nothings in your ear. And now you're left feeling 'the worst pain in my life'. Oh how my heart bleeds for you

This is interesting. Traditionally because women's reputations mattered even if the woman had committed adultery the man would take the blame and even fake adultery in a hotel room with investigator to swear statement so her reputation would not be tarnished which accounted for woman divorcing man. Then there were a lot of couples where the woman earned not a bean and might not get much in divorce and in those days might leave the children so many women stayed married because of divorce stigma.

Then we reformed our culture and divorce law. Some people of either gender will not divorce until they have someone else lined up. I think that is more common for men than women.

Thinking about people I know one said his wife must have some kind of mental condition (personality disorder or something) because she divorced him when he didn't want it - I mildly suggested it is fairly classic to suggest women must be mad if they want to leave you or do XYZ (lock them up in lunatic asylums was the traditinoal way to deal with themn, say they are mad although of course she might have had that condition);

Second one he told her about an affair 8 years before when they were talking about their current problems and having counselling so not surprisingly she seized on that and left him.

I suppose a good few accept equal responsibility for marriage breakdown which is usually the fairer picture. There is a big increase in over 60s women splitting up at the moment too although I suppose families in financial difficulties may be soldiering on. There certainly seem quite a few who genuinely are carrying on separate lives in the same house as they cannot afford anything else.

@Abitwobblynow

"Sun 10-Jun-12 11:08:48

'Most divorces are initiated by women which is interesting. I speak to a lot of men about their divorce as I'm single and I would say something like 90% have been divorce by their wife and would have preferred to stay in the marriage.'

Aaah, Xenia, an important point! Because the answer is on the OTHER side of the coin: which is why?

ANSWER: women instigate divorce more [true] BECAUSE THEY HAVE GIVEN UP TRYING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM WITH NO HELP. Read Gottman and Skinner on this.

The reason for the giving up is in men's primary defense system, which is stonewalling. It is the final of the four horsemen of the acopalypse (Gottman). Skinner penned a brilliant article in the Guardian 'Men: when not to play a straight bat'. (He uses gulping then retreating behind a paper as an example).

Stonewalling (the refusal to own or face emotional problems the woman brings up) is the death knell for marriages (Skinner). The advice to men is: trust your wives. They really want the best for you. They are more knowledgable in this area of emotions than you are, do not shut them down.

But sadly, men do. And are devastated when their wives, who have tried hard to bring up issues in the hope of solving them, finally retreat and they lose the relationship they never wanted to lose, because they cannot understand why women are not satisfied with their role of domestic appliance with vagina attacment. As long as they are showing their love and commitment by providing, why are they being flamed?

I have noticed this in interviews with families for fathers etc. activists. They are angry and bewildered but they never seem to ask themselves 'why is my wife so angry and disilluioned? What did I do, to lose my family? There are so many men out there, my husband included, who are completely cut off from their emotions. It is MUCH EASIER to turn to a stranger like Listen for new sexual idealised narcissistic admiration, than solve the problems they are co-creators of.

Chocoraisin : 'Get a grip woman. It's not the wife's fault if her husband is a shallow, selfish, lies-as-easily-as-he-breathes dog with two dicks. It IS the OW's fault if she knowingly agrees to begin a relationship with any man who is still living with, and committed to, his wife.

^ agree with this a lot. It happened to me when pregnant as I mentioned up thread. Sorry it's happened to you too Choco

OP - hope you realise that you are not innocent in any of this and there is no 'love of your life'. Your affair was based on lies and betrayal which, to me, is far from romantic

Agree with Xenia - you don't have to have an affair - you say "fine - when you've split up, when everything is in order, when you're properly on your own, then let's see if this is a workable relationship". Not before. If a man is the love of your life then surely he's worth waiting for?

Lunar has summed my view up more effectively than I could.

You know what is so awful - when you read OW's letter [I was going to analyse the classic steps of an affair she outlines, especially his rationalisation that if he feels 'this' about another person then clearly his marriage is bad] but had a really sad look at the timeline.

This twat took over 4 years of her life. Four years she could have spent being available for someone who really cared about her.

"As someone who used to have the rather naive view about a kind of 'sisterhood', I have really tried to go with the 'it's all his fault and she has no responsibility' view. But in the end, I just can't. Of course he is far more responsible, but if she knows there is a wife/children involved then she herself is saying - fuck them, let them suffer, I only care about me and what I want. And that's utterly selfish to have so little regard for the pain of others. We are responsible for our actions and the pain they cause."

Well said. I think people hold this view as a counterbalance to the 'wicked slut whore OW seduced my poor innocent man' view which is equally misguided (and avoids being angry with the person they SHOULD be furious with).

I think MN is too sophisticated to fall for that old one. But OW is responsible too. She is responsible for her own level of choices, exactly what is outlined above. No more, and no less.

I don't really want to flame anyone, but just want to say:

Hopefully, this is not the love of your life. Hopefully, that is just how you're feeling . A man who willingly cheats should not be the love of anyone's life

"This twat took over 4 years of her life. Four years she could have spent being available for someone who really cared about her."

Well, she was a twat for letting him wasn't she?

And also: I love my friends. I'd never treat them like that. You didn't have a friendship, you had a 'you're a convenient fuck-ship'.

I really don't think the ow or the excuse for a man deserve anything but contempt for their actions they both knew what they were doing was wrong I really would just feel sorry for the wife who was the innocent party in this sordid charade , I think a lot of men are ruled by what's between their legs but as women we are a bit deeper than that , I think women who knowingly have affairs with married men are a disgrace to women , let's hope the wife in this case has found a real man to be happy with and these 2 excuses for human beings go and end up lonely !

These threads always surprise me in that it is seemingly never the woman's fault when a marriage ends - I don't mean when the man has cheated but I mean generally.

I'm not condoning affairs or walking away however I think that while it is true that all marriages have problems from time to time, there are 2 people involved in fixing them. I have a friend (aquaintance really) who treats her husband pretty badly - she puts him down in front of others and speaks to him like a child most of the time. It's awful to witness, yet if he cheated he alone would be the bad guy In realit they would have both played their part in the ultimate breakdown of the marriage (I hope it doesn't happen of course, just speaking hypothetically)

I'm not saying it's ok to cheat, nor am I saying that if you are cheated on it's your fault but imo it takes 2 to make and to break a marriage and those 2 are the people in it - the husband and the wife. Most second marriages end in divorce and imo a large part of that is the refusal of many people to accept that thye played any part whatsoever in the breakdown of their first marraige and therefore repeat their mistakes in the next one.

Who knows why the OP's ex had marraige problems, but speculation and assumption will not answer that question imo and don't do anyone any favours.

ahem, elvis, if your friends husband is so unhappy that his marriage should be over due to his wife's behaviour, he can divorce her. That's what 'unreasonable behaviour' divorces are for? hanging around until he has an affair, and then blaming her for his choices would actually make him the twat. And he would be the one in the wrong.

Hurting someone badly simply because you have been hurt by them before doesn't make you justified, it makes you a spineless prat.

TIP: if YOU are unhappy, leave. Don't make your partner (however much you no longer love or like them) suffer pointlessly before you find the courage to go. As this OP's post rather depressingly highlights, absolutely no-one win's in an affair. It's crap for everyone involved.

It doesn't always take 2 people to break a marriage. One person can be doing everything they can the other can be a twat.
I have wit eased this myself, not me but close friends. The dh did everything he could. He knew there was distance forming. He tried date nights, weekends away counselling, taking these opportunities to talk. She didn't give a shit. She was snagging someone we (me and her) work with. He wanted to forgive her. She didn't. She fucked off with the OM, left her kids. She hasn't seen them in 6 months. She doesn't want custody and only wants a maximum of 1 weekend every 8 weeks as she doesn't want the kids to interfere with her new man. She flaunts what she did like its something to be proud of and is constantly heard at work comparing her ex and new mans ability in bed. She has no respect for her ex. He is heart broken. I can't even be around her.
The ex did not play a part. Problems started appearing when she was interested in OM, he spotted the change and tried to do something. She wasn't interested. She admits this and just says OM is more attractive.
In fact 2 people did break the marriage her and OM. I thought I knew her well. I would have never have guessed she would have done this. I know the OM fairly well. Its a mess. The kids don't understand why mummy isn't there anymore (4 year old twins).

in fact this isn't the only affair at my work going on. The MD recently visited after being made aware of one situation. I am glad I am leaving. They make me feel sick and the MD isn't happy about these people making those with morals uncomfortable. Its not just me. I would say 90% feel that way.

Excellent post choco. No matter how unhappy you are the right thing is to leave. Not to shag someone else and use the 'my dw/dh is xyz'.

People who have affairs tend to be somewhat duplicitous therefore having any kind of 'conversation' as suggested by OP would be futile.

Having an affair is not only unjustifiable but selfish because it does not give the other partner the choice to walk away from the relationship. That's what I hate about affairs the most.

I was the other woman, quite a few years ago now when I was in my twenties, I was in a relationship at the time too. Here is my perspective:

I was in a relationship that I was too scared to leave. It wasn't working and I didn't know how to admit it to myself or my partner. I was insecure, needy and if I'm honest looking for some excitement. I was also arrogant and naive. It was all so special, sexy and noone would understand. I didn't care about the guy's partner. All I thought about was this man and the crazy passionate sex we were having.

Of course it wasn't really sexy, it was selfish, tawdry and a horrible horrible thing to do to someone else

If I was a twat then he was worse. An ego the size of Wales, manipulative and attention seeking. The state of his relationship didn't make him cheat, he cheated because he thought he was a sex god, different, special. He was the most selfish person I have ever met in my life.

I am deeply ashamed of what I did. I have grown up over the last few years and am shocked at how selfish I was. I am sorry every day for the hurt I caused but I take full responsibility for my actions. An affair is always the fault of those involved, selfish people who somehow think they are special. They can't see that they are just the same as all the other cheating low-lifes out there.

Amen to all that, lowra.

"we fell deeply in love" No op you did. He wasnt in love or he would have most definately left his wife despite her tears and hurt. He wouldnt have carried on being with her whist you were his bit on the side,when you truly love someone you would do anything for them and move mountains to be together,he couldnt even shoulder bit of hurt.

Im sorry you got hurt and mugged off but forgive me for my lack of compassion as when you'e sat up at night whilst your teenage sons weep or rage cos their Dad had fucked off or watch your baby girl become so clingy you cant put her down even for a second then you tend to toughen up.

However,it was my ex who hurt them,the ow was just the catalyst for it.

lowra, I respect you for admitting you did very wrong indeed

I second that AF.

Have any of you ever thought that people who have affairs may be deeply unhappy in their marriages but feel unable to leave for various reasons... having young children being the main one? Maybe they have some unmet emotional needs at home and maybe seeing someone outside of the marriage makes them better able to cope with that? Do the posters here always have to be so narrow minded and never try to see the bigger picture or look at things from a different perspective?

CallieJ that really doesn't make a difference does it? It just makes them a cowardly twat rather then just a twat.

It's simple: You finish one relationship before embarking on another. Easy.

If you are married you have made a commitment. You don't shag around bleating about how your H or W "doesn't understand you" or how your "emotional needs aren't being met". You either solve the problem or leave. Unless you are a cowardly twat.

It doesn't make me narrow minded, it means my moral compass is different to yours.

So you can't leave because you have kids. But what you can do shag another person, break your families heart then leave. Excellent.
Its not narrow minded. Its called having morals. If people stay they should stay. Not shag somebody else. What a half added attempt to be noble.