OW perspective

[ListenBeforeJudging]

I'm fully expecting a flaming...this will be long.

I've spent many months lurking and reading the posts about all the affairs and suspected affairs and to be honest, it's helped me get over my own hurt. It's not often that the OW perspective is aired and I wanted to just let you all know that we're not all evil home-wreckers. There are always two sides to the story.

I had a male friend at work. We were good friends for quite a long time - nothing more in it. Then one day, out of the blue, he confessed that he'd fallen for me. I was gobsmacked, hadn't seen it coming and immediately distanced myself - I was angry with him as I didn't know what he wanted me to do with that information as a) he was married and b) I'd never thought of him like that.

I had a lot of time invested in our friendship and knew him well (albeit only at work) and knew he wasn't the typical straying type. I considered him a genuine friend so over time we talked it through. He confided that he felt that his marriage had broken down and that he'd been wanting to leave for at least two years (they'd been married for 8, had married young, no kids and it had descended into something platonic). He was terrified of leaving as he knew his wife was still in love with him and would be very hurt. His whole adult life, his family and all his friends were wrapped up with her.

For months we tried to put the situation behind us and carry on as normal but he told me that for the first time, he knew that he had to leave as if was capable of feeling the feelings he had for me there was no way back to fix his marriage.

We became closer and I started to develop feelings for him but still nothing happened between us. Then he told me that he was going to tell her that it was over. I was away and didn't see him for a week and when I came back he said he'd told her that he wanted out and that the 'wheels were in motion'. It was then that our affair began. We fell deeply in love.

With hindsight this was my biggest mistake and greatest regret. Long story short she was devastated, he couldn't go through with the pain he was causing her and for the next two years we had an on/off relationship (while managing somehow to have a consistent friendship) while he tried to extricate himself from the situation.

Then she found out. He cut me out of his life 'temporarily' while he 'sorted things out' (by this point we no longer worked together). I waited 3 months before seeing the light and telling him that it would never happen and that it was over. 4 months after that he left her. It was too late for us. There had been too much pain caused.

He was the love of my life. I still miss our friendship. I've felt the worst pain of my life over this.

My point to this story? I never planned to fall for him although I accept that I made some bad judgements and got in over my head emotionally. I've spent the last two years regretting what happened. I dream about his (now ex) wife often and want nothing more than to contact her to apologise for the part I played in her hurt - but I know that would just be indulgent and of no value to her when she's trying to move on.

My genuine belief is that if all was well in a marriage there would be no reason for a man to find solace/confidantes elsewhere. My advice? Talk about your concerns with your DH - before things get to the point that you can't communicate anymore.

Christ. Way to derail the thread again.

bloody hell, sugar, my pc just ate my long reply

to summarise, any relationship that causes you "pain" and isn't good for you should be re-evaluated in the light of that

I never ever made out I was doing the dw a favour merely dared to mention that our affair had made both of us, on occasion, a little happier

can everyone just please leave me alone now and stop accusing me of saying things that I didn't
I am not the OP of this thread

Loops meant to say you should not be in pain.
40 there are OW on this very thread that have not had anything bad said to them. Maybe its because they haven't tried to shift the blame, offered advice to women who aren't keeping their men happy enough for them not to stray etc. Or maybe its because their posts are not full of hate, so.ed at anyone who doesn't agree with you. Or maybe its because they have been honest and open.
Who knows?

All I really said was that I have made him happier and more able to cope with his life at home.
That's how I took your post. I am not having a go. I am advising on why people weren't concerned about you pain. You didn't seem to be in pain. You seemed to be sure you were doing the right thing. If you are doing something that is right and makes you happy you shouldn't be in pain.
I genuinely feel for you. Clearly you are not happy. Only you can figure out why. But if you need to talk it through, do.

Sugar, the funny thing about MN is that all the time people are being tough, they get flamed.

But did you notice: when you said you are hurting, everyone has immediately backed off, and are worried about you?

Are you OK? I am amazed that his wife knows about you, and he is a) still alive, and b) still in possession of his testicles.

Why is he still with her?

MAHC - No reason other than that it was a great relief when every single relationships thread stopped being full of half paged promotional posts for Shirley Glass! I really don't know if she as come back under another name, as it could just be that the constant harping on became a mantra for others but there are so many legitimate and conflicting views on this very interesting topic that it always had me itching to post from one of the many authorities with differing views.

And how would you know that 'there are so many legitimate and conflicting views on this very interesting topic' if as you say Higgle, you have been in a totally faithful, 38-year marriage?

You really must think we were born yesterday.....

Sugar, I hope you get peace with yourself soon.

Higgle - why do you find the topic of affairs very interesting? Your reaction re Glass is very telling - unreformed cheaters find reading her book very uncomfortable

Sternface, I practiced for many years as a solicitor (including some divorce work) and I also have a counselling qualification - which I don't use. I now work in a setting where I am often called upon to support older people where one spouse has developed dementia. Michael J Formica is a psychologist who has explored in a more open minded way the reasons for the differences in divorce levels in societies that have different cultural views on infidelity and the possibility that in some settings it can be beneficial. One point you are right on though is the length of my marriage! I'm afraid I counted incorrectly from 1984 and it is 28 not 38 years.

Well Higgle, the only time I can think of a third person being beneficial is in a case where there is severe disablity for one reason or another sex can't happen.

What other reasons are there (curious)

Hi all,

We've been through and removed some of the worst of the personal attacks from this thread. We appreciate that this is an emotive topic, but please try to keep things civil - otherwise the whole thread's going to have to go.

Thanks
MNHQ

As it seems dangerous to voice a personal opinion on here I will only suggest you google for balanced answers - psychology today has several articles that might help. I have not asked for the two defamatory comments about me to be removed but if you look at my other posts you will see I'm a regular on here, always the same name, and I have an interest in supporting the underdog - whether it is the unhappily married or, more literally the STaffordshire BUll Terrier!

SJ - I don't think you can say that this man gets to be all of who he is with you, he gets to be a part of who he is. The traditional man of his culture is also part of who he is. It really is horrendously unfair on you and his wife.

Having the two of you may well suit his conflicted self but why on earth should you and his wife be the ones who help this man feel happier about life while you both suffer? Also, for all you know, his wife may well want to develop and change but he may keep her in her traditional role because he can play out the difficulties elsewhere.

Finally,he is having sex with the two of you at the same time and you don't know where else, don't you mind that?

Well I'm not over the moon about it Eurostar but it's tough shit isn't it, I knew what I was getting into. It's a really good point about him being able to express a part of himself with me and not the whole of himself with either of us - I hadn't thought of it like that. Obviously there is loads of him that I will find it difficult to relate to as well.

Dprince - no I don't want to cause all that pain and suffering to his family, I would be devastated if they found out.

I'm not under any delusions about doing anyone a favour, or that we're soul mates and that he'll turn his back on his family and culture to be with me. I don't even want him to tbh, I want him to be happy in the life that he has now - that is why I have to back away and let him try and do that. I don't mean to sound self-pitying but the situation is very sad for all of us.

Eurostar bangs it in one!

Higgle, that is an interesting comment. You see, one of the leading infidelity therapists is a psychiatrist called Frank Pittman. When he tell you how he got into this field it was through two things: that he used to be highly entertained in his therapy by the dramas, the near misses, the narrow scrapes that is adultery. And then he was struck that there was always a common theme: that is was the man and the OW against the common enemy, the wife (writing that made my eyelids prickle, before I got a grip). And my inherent sense of justice and protecting the underdog became alerted. He then recalled an unpleasant situation when he was a boy an amateur photographer, where a stituaion involving a police sergeant, a car crash, a mistress (and the cop inappropriately said to this 11-year old little boy, 'I love my wife but I can't keep away from her' and the situation involved a threat and a secret (he photographed them).

THAT is when he became interested in infidelity. His conclusion: 'infidelity [is not about the marriage, it] is about the ego state of the betrayer'.
And: 'Infidelity: the sacrifice of so much, for so little'

If you are interested in differing psychologists, he has a wonderfully readable article entitled 'When Immature Men Fall In Love'.

He says: infidelity has given me as much entertainment as bullfighting or watching a shark frenzy. But I advise you to stay on the benches, and not get your feet wet.

(All a summary, from memory).

Sorry, that was supposed to be there was always a common enemy: the wife

Both interesting theories, (Formica and Pittman) but that is all they are though - theories. I have studied psychology myself, to quite a high level and there really is no universal truth to anything to do with human emotions and behaviour, which is why we use language like 'supports' and never 'proves' the theory. In some cases it may be about 'the ego state of the betrayer' but not in all, people are unfaithful for all sorts of reasons - some legitimate some not. Some do it because they're in shitty marriages with the wrong people, some just do it because they think they can get away with it, some probably genuinely fall in love, some only think they do. I just don't think it is possible to ever say 'people have affairs because of................'

Most people like to think of themselves as a 'nice' person. Few people have the tools to deal with criticism and owning their mistakes.

People who have affairs have to justify their actions - and there are many options in that justification to self - preservation. Adulterers do not like to be confronted with their weaknesses and challenged on their thought processes. Many will regret their decisions and live with the consequences of their actions.

I think Mn has demonstrated that Glass does help people come to terms with affairs within marriage but as posters have pointed out other sources are available. All, however do put full responsibility of the affair on the shoulders of the person committing it.

Yes I agree that one size will never fit all, however psychologically it is always fascinating how scripted some life situations can be and how frequently human beings will behave the same way, despite differing personalities, emotions and scenarios. That's why the work of MacDonald, Subotnik, Glass and Pittman resonate with so many folk - they have seen the patterns and researched the root causes. Most of all, they have listened to what their clients tell them. This is why it always produces a wry smile in me when I see absolutes like we've seen here i.e. a marriage has to be in poor shape for an affair to happen. This, despite all the therapeutic evidence to the contrary and posters who've had affairs themselves telling a different story. There just aren't any absolutes.

I've been thinking about your situation SJ and I'm interested in the fact that your ex had an emotional affair and left the marriage. I think you deserve an enormous amount of credit actually for not reaching the conclusion that because this wasn't the reason for your marriage ending and because you've managed a good relationship since, that infidelity isn't so bad after all. You are able to see the differences between your own marriage and that of the OM's.

But I do wonder whether this has 'normalised' infidelity for you and whether your counsellor's stance is serving to normalise it further. The neutrality of counsellors is often misunderstood. They must be curious while remaining non-judgemental. Telling you that this affair is 'no big deal' surprises me because that is after all, a judgement. She's right that doing a shitty thing doesn't make someone a shitty person, but unless this is still early days in your sessions, she needs to be curious about why you're in this relationship, because that's where she can add value as a counsellor in the way that a friend who won't challenge you or alternatively offers advice, cannot.

People can agree that there are many reasons for affairs, and that the marriage can be in a bad state, or it can be "perfect" and an affair will still happen. But it is a general assumption for women on here (in my experience) that the husband is "stuck with" the OW when an affair is discovered, like, "he's lost me, now he has to stay with her", when in fact in some cases, that's exactly what he wants. It's wrongly assumed that men always regret the affairs they have.

BelieveInPink - most of the (relatively elderly for this forum) people I know who have had affairs have been of the "arrangement" variety and these have, in at least one instance, gone on for years and years. I only know one person who at a younger age has left his wife for the OW, but I do know a few who have divorcedand re-married and been happy. There seems to be a bit of a pattern of the male looking for someone who is calm and supportive - almost motherly- where there have been happy endings, and in two of the instances no children either before or after. Maybe the husbands were never really very suited to the conventional idea of a nuclear family that almost goes as default option on marriage. It is so very hard when you are in your 20's not to get swept away in the romance of eternity with someone when the reality is much more like runing a business together

Maybe some don't BIP - however I do know that the odds are stacked against a new relationship with OW lasting as long as both initially want when such a relationship is started in deceit. There are some men happy to leave one partner for another and then retread the same path. There are also some women who do this too. Each time more people are affected by the ripples, especially any children involved.

It's also interesting that the person having an affair does not like to think of how they would feel if their partner was also having an affair.

Yes IBelieve - apart from the bit about a 'perfect' marriage (because I assume we're all agreed there's no such thing) by and large I agree with your post, although I have to say that IME, successful relationships that started as affairs are pretty rare, although of course they exist and I know a few.

Something in the OP (remember that? ) struck me anew this morning - and it's something I personally find fascinating about affairs. The OP said that throughout their work friendship she 'hadn't thought of him like that'.....and yet, as soon as he declared romantic feelings for her she started to view him as a romantic interest.

I keep encountering this and there seems to be a pattern i.e., no attraction whatsoever felt for someone until he or she makes a play. I've noticed that this often leads to people having ill-advised relationships with people who in the normal run of events wouldn't be given the time of day. I'm always curious to explore why for some people, all it takes is for someone to be interested in them for them to return the feelings.

I've had people absolutely aghast in the aftermath that the OW/OM was ever considered as a partner. Normally, this points again to low self-esteem and an inability to form sensible character assessments of people, often because of low self-esteem, an over-identification with being perceived as desirable and in many cases, poor quality or non-existent close friendships with people outside of their intimate and familial relationships.

The goal is to help people explore their own 'radar' so that they can develop the confidence to keep friendships platonic, or to be more discriminating about the friendships they have in the first place. Not to be so eager to like someone back just because he or she likes them.