Support thread for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships Number *9*

[foolonthehill]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
why financial abuse is domestic violenceAre you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans ? He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out ? You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
heart to heart a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

If you find that he really wants to change
I stay or should I go bonus materials this is a site containing the material for men who want to change?please don?t give him the link?print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
bill of rights here is what you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

He does not have the moral highground. My stbxh brought up an incident the other day from years ago when I tried to hit him. He conveniently forgets the taunting and emotional abuse that led to it and the fact that he laughed at me as I was going for him and then made out that I was mad and out of control because of course he never needed to use physical force on me, his cruel words damaged me more than a punch ever could.

Your H is dangerous and you need to get away from him for the safety of yourself and your DCs. You know you're not making it up, but the longer you live with it the more you will be ground down to the point where you don't even know what is true any more.

Money isn't everything - yes its a lot, but your happiness and safety are more important, so don't let that be the thing that keeps you trapped. As for his family, fuck em.

< waves back to all - PinkPussycat I'm sure we've met before >

Raising a smile at our amazing female psychological powers - which is good after my weekend x (sure it's all down to us, isn't it ?! )

On a good day ?H can joke about it always being my fault. Which may be a start ... or something ? Then again, maybe not x

forsale, fool, doingit. Thank you all so much.

I did try to explain to him that had I womanly psychological powers, I may actually have manipulated him into being slightly different from the way he is. That kinda stumped him and he actually had to draw breath for several seconds before finding an alternative rant...

Thank you all so much, you're all so kind - I will try to be supportive to you all too. Don't mean to go on, I am just trying to find a way to get it all straight in my head. I cannot believe this has happened to moi!! (arrogant, as obviously it can happen to anyone) and writing it down and reading it back makes me think OMG, if MY girls were in this situation, what would I want them to do. Well, chuck him out, obviously. Sod the money, sod the legal battles, sod the house, sod it all and make a better life for yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But it's not that easy when it's you, is it? (bb99 sticks fingers in ears and humms loudly, pretending everything is ok)

Oh - posted late-

juggling, we have the car thing too a lot of the time sometimes - you have my empathy with that one, there's just nowhere to go!

BTW, if I ever figure out how I do it with my womanly powers, I will share the secret with all of you and we can put our powers to good use

I'm off to shop for lycra super woman suites now, perhaps something in shocking pink...with a cape and high boots...

bb, you've not cocked it up - that incident is in the front of your mind as you are making your plans. Just because you didn't walk/kick him out the same day, doesn't mean you've accepted it. It may be the tipping point that gets you out, when you're prepared and ready to go.

Had an awful day with h on Saturday - I mucked up big time with something I don't understand and he has worked with estate agents and solicitors so he knows what one can say and what one can't and - how could I even THINK of emailing without checking with him first?! And on and on until I lost my temper a little; well, I am a naturally quiet person so that just meant banging a few cups around and turning my back to do the washing up. And then he stopped. He likes to see me get upset cos then he knows the message has got through; otherwise he thinks I'm not taking him seriously. But once he'd gone out of the room, the tears flowed and my self-esteem had taken a huge knock. So much for detach and observe: I was so drained by it all I couldn't start to think through what had just happened, not in any sort of objective way. Didn't sleep well - actually was just falling asleep when he came to bed and reached out for me iyswim, cos of course it was all over in his mind, and I pushed him away and then couldn't get back to sleep - too angry and upset and depressed and confused! He was asleep in seconds, but then he'd been travelling the previous night.

So the next morning he was all concerned and wanting to sort it all out cos I must still be upset. Sounded like I had the problem. Oh, and then he admitted "maybe I overreacted" about the whole email thing as what he predicted would go wrong didn't and all was actually fine.

Aaaanyway, now the whole incident is receding and seeming much less important - he didn't actually see me upset so I can't think of it as EA. Maybe I'm just not cut out for a close relationship. Maybe I'm tired of loving him and want it to end.

More positively, I've been reading Should I Stay - thanks for that recommendation, it's a great book. Last night I sat down to the "Is it his mental health?" chapter, thinking, well this will be quick, it's nothing to do with mental health. HA! Every page I read something that made me say, "YES! That's him!" It's a very good book, so good I have to read it slowly to let it all sink in. Couple of days to think about last night's revelations and then I'll look at the "Is it abuse/control?" chapter... and then we'll see.

BB, looks like you're not the only one needing a stream of consciousness today!

Well done Losymywellies, sounds like you're learning how to not play into his hands. I don't imagine for one minute that its YOU who's not cut out for a close relationship, you just want things that this person is unable to provide. (e.g. understanding, equality, respect)

Good luck with the rest of that book - I didn't even question whether I should stay once I recognised him for what he was, so I never read it, but hope it helps!

I just have SO little self-confidence and have trained myself to believe what he says - in the beginning because I was in awe of him and these days because he argues better or maybe just because it's easier. You're very kind, but I don't think I'm learning anything as yet!

I never drive h anywhere - like DoingIt, h sometimes tells people what a great driver I am - but when we're in the car together it's quite clear he knows he's the better driver. Actually, that's true the other way round, too. He drives and I tense as he drives too close to the car in front or I quietly point out the speed limit that he is driving 20mph over. You see? I talk myself into confusion - I'm just as bad as he is, aren't I?

And as for support from the dcs and them knowing what's going on... well, they did ask why I never drive when Daddy's there, but then 8yo dd1 tells me I'm a rubbish mummy - more self-esteem-bashing! :( If the others are whining and fighting, I almost lose the will to live.

H is away so much that it's a treat for them to see him even if half the time he upsets them. At least the other half he's having different boundaries from Mummy's so they can get away with a lot.

Oh, what a mess!

But Lost, I think the whole driving thing is about controlling you.

He drives too fast to make you feel uncomfortable, to try and get you to comment so that you will then be 'as bad as him'.

Even complementing your driving to others WTF!? Why would he do that, other than to totally invalidate it if you ever say that he criticises your driving (everyone he's ever mentioned it to would think you're mad, because he quite clearly thinks you're a fab driver, he said so )

You can second-guess these people and try to figure them out, but the upshot is, if you feel uncomfortable or judged or useless around them, you're better off not being around them. Even now, since mine moved out, I feel inadequate when he pops in to collect stuff or drop off the DCs, I am conscious of how I look, how tidy the house is etc. If I email about the DCs or something to do with banking etc he will turn it around so that I am wrong or 'confused' about something.

Nothing you do will ever be as good as how he would do it, you will never 'win' with him. As you say, your confidence is at rock-bottom and he is better at arguing, so just don't bother to argue as its soul-destroying to know that you'll always lose.

You're not as bad as him, because you recognise it and want something to change for the better. Be the change.

And mine was away a lot too. That's why I knew the DCs wouldn't miss him if he left. Sadly now he's bending over backwards to spend time with them all (to prove that I'm wrong/mad/had too high expectations etc)

I still will never win, but at least I don't have to share a bed with him anymore.

For those of you who have separated, just a quick question ? what was the decider? If he went, how did you persuade him to leave?
The best circumstances overall for our family would be if he moved out, less impact on the DC, I already pay all the bills and mortgage so would continue to do so (if I moved out I would stop doing this as couldn?t afford to rent and pay mortgage).

But he has always point blank refused to go ? similarly to others here, apparently if I moved out and left him with the children that would be the best solution for everyone as I am an incompetent and my children don?t respect or love me as much as they do him. Sigh..

I?m just trying to think about the best options for me and the babies and how best to do it ? I know there is no perfect way of handling it. Do I tell him now what my plans are for later in the year, or do I say nothing and just do it? I?m thinking that telling him is only giving him a reason to 1. further bully me, 2. work on making me doubt my plans by picking holes in them and my ability to follow through, 3. improve his behaviour in order to make me doubt my plans..

Head wrecking stuff. I wish life could be a lot simpler.

I wouldn't tell him about any plans ForSale. Its just ammunition.

As for getting him to leave, I was very lucky that H couldn't wait for the green light to escape. He wishes he'd had the bollocks to do it years ago, but didn't want to come across as abandoning me after I've supported him and his career for years, so he just treated me badly enough that I told him to go and he comes out of it smelling of roses, doing his best for us all now, chucking money at the situation and a couple of evenings a week access, in return he gets the single life he always wanted.

Could you convince your H that people will think he's more hard done by if you kick him out, whereas he will look bad for staying in the family home while you disrupt your children (still preferably to living with him I'd have thought)?

Possibly, doingitformyself, I doubt it though.
He genuinely seems to think that if I left and took the kids that he can legally force me to pay the mortgage and all the bills, also that legally he would gain primary custody of the children because I have mental issues i.e. I had PND for approx 2 years after our son was born. He has said this to me in all seriousness in the past, I don't know if he genuinely believes any of it.

You know that's bollocks though don't you? PND wouldn't stop you being their primary carer and if he's had any serious worries about your parenting he wouldn't have allowed you to do it until would he? I'm sure he doesn't believe it, but he hopes you do, even if just a little bit, to keep you doubting yourself.

Be prepared for him to argue about the DCs though, my x never gave a toss about them until he left, now he's trying to 'make amends' by having them to stay with him and your H may even try to follow through on his threat to get custody (I'm sure the very most he'd get is joint custody, but would you be able to cope with that until the novelty wears off and he changes his mind ?)

I know its bollocks, he is just using my own self doubt about my competencies following a very difficult couple of years to "win" or to shut me up. We discussed this at marriage therapy and he openly admitted doing this on purpose. My PND did not stop him spending 5 nights a week in the pub while I was off work sick and suicidal and also trying to look after a 1 yr old and a 2 yr old. So I must have been competent "enough".

Yes there will be a battle regarding the children. That's the bit that keeps me hoping that something will change to make life better.

the decider for me.....we got a dog, he treated it the way he treated DCs/me...I "saw" what he was doing for the first time properly. Took me 2 months from then to make a safe plan and to organise myself so i could tell him to leave.

On the planned day I got DCs to a friends, NSDH's older friend came round (with his wife in the kitchen) when NSDH returned home I told him he had to go , he was damaging the DCs and me. handed him a letter with some examples of his bad behaviour written down and a suggestion that he would not be back unless sustained change occurred and that would be demonstrated over a period of years rather than months.

I was surprised that he did go... I had a friend of his there so that he couldn't re-invent what was said or become physical (although he is mostly EA/VA I knew he might escalate), he argued for 2 hours, I did not argue back. In the end he went.

he came back twice to pack...he still hasn't really moved out but he is not here!!!

I never thought I would be able to do it, I never thought he would go. But look he did.

the saying 'you wouldn't treat a dog that way' was definitely relevant for you then fool. Its awful that you thought it was ok for yourself & the DCs but you only noticed it in relation to the dog - just shows how 'normalised' their behaviour becomes doesn't it.

Your plan to get rid was brilliant! Can you pack up the rest of his stuff and gradually palm it off on him? That's what I'm doing - every time he 'pops in' for something or other I give him another pile of junk very important paperwork to take away.

Thanks for sharing that foolonthehill - interesting to me and I'm sure to others what "the decider" was - and the whole idea of a tipping point someone mentioned earlier. Sometimes I think too about the idea of slowly heating up a frog in water - if you just put it in hot water it would jump out, but slowly heating it up it doesn't notice. I've heard (and maybe experienced too) that they're always upping the anti - but a bit at a time so you don't notice, and they can convince you it's all quite normal - or your fault

Oh, just thinking maybe it sounds a bit un-feeling of me to use the word "interesting" about your painful life experiences foth - maybe helpful is more the word I'm looking for. My *H is OK with the DC's, and only abusive to them accidentally whilst focusing abuse at me (so, in their presence, or causing divided loyalties etc. eg. the other day told DS the reason he hadn't bought him the bike he promised him at Christmas was because Mummy wasted too much money. This week we've managed to buy them two second hand bikes (in time for some nice summer trips I hope) without a huge problem - so why all the drama )

Am just sitting here nodding my head to yet more examples I relate to - I'm obviously a terrible driver, an idiot, a mentalist who shouldn't be a primary carer for anyone, he's horrible to the dog and punishes her if I've upset him etc etc.

It's all very sad. He wont leave though I know that. I got a reply from WA saying I should call them, he sounds extremely EA (I questioned whether it was EA at all) and to make sure I'm talking to someone official about incidents so that I can use them when the battle for custody starts. Have any of you done this? My GP is totally useless so I can't talk to him, who else is there?

Fool that's one of the three reasons I left my FWX, I had a beautiful very little cat who was so affectionate and wonderful. The arsehole was carrying a bag of shopping from the car and my beautiful cat came running up to us. The wanker kicked her - hard. She meoowed so loudly, and my heart broke then, I couldn't believe he would be so cruel to such a wonderful gentle cat. And now I'm crying.

hi everyone, i'm new to mumsnet but reading this has hit home.
just read those links and my partner ticks 60-70% of the points. we are still living together and i just want him to leave but he won't, both our names are onh the tenancy. i have a 6month old and a 2yr old and just don't know what to do.
the worst thing is that to everyone who knows him they would describe him as the loveliest person you could meet. and he tells everyone where we live that i'm a nutcase and have postnatel dfeppression (i don't) and i know they all believe him.
if i say he is abusive he laughs and says im imagining it. he often tells me things have happened or been said that havn't, sometimes i think i'm going mad and he's the normal one.

Hi bella

Yup, sounds like this is the place for you . That's classical behaviour that, tells people you're mad or depressed, tells you you're imagining things, eventually you start to believe him. It wears away at you until you are reduced to a cringing shell, it's a horrible place to be. Do you want to try and work it out, or do you need to get out?

I escaped after 18 years, and have been alone for 3 yrs now. They have been the happiest years of my life. My DS was only 2 when I left, so he doesn't remember his dad and I being together.

It takes a lot of courage to do something about abuse, whether it's confronting the abuser, or leaving. We're here when you need to have a rant.

Hi juggling nice (or not ) to see you back here. My FWX used to do the same thing with me with driving. Only problem was he couldn't drive, so he was always in the passenger seat giving me glaring looks or sarcastic comments. I used to dread going out in the car. And he wouldn't let me get a SatNav either (you're too thick to work it, you'll drive onto the railway tracks).

Hi ForSale, my X used to have a problem with drink as well. He wasn't an alcoholic, but he went into sulks then rages when he had a drink. I hated it when he went to the pub, because he would be so vile when he got back. He even admitted he knew he was horrible, but refused to do anything about it, except to say I should 'learn to deal with it'

nini I really hope the exam went okay for you today, I was thinking of you.

wellies I can't believe he'd wind you up until you snap just to make sure you understood. No, hang on, I can believe it. What depths these fuckers men sink to.

forSale you asked about the 'decider' that made us leave. Well, for me there were three things.

1. He kicked my beautiful, gentle, little cat. Hard.

1. I fell pregnant again (typically the one time in two months that we had sex) and realised if I had another DC I would never get out. Very, very fortunate for me I had a MC at 8 weeks, I'm convinced through fear as I was absolutely terrified for days. And I mean terrified.

1. I'd been out with my son who was then 2, and I was crying in the car going back because I was so scared of going home. A song came on the radio, 'Us Against The World', and I looked at my little boy in the back and sobbed because of how awful it was going to be when he grew up.

The three things above happened within 2 weeks, and the third one was the clincher, I knew I had to run. So I did.