As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

Plenty: Do you think it equally horrible for a woman to expect sex from an unenthusiastic partner?

Yes.

And men who don't get their side of the "bargain" feel conned.

To be fair, I think the OP did acquit himself in relation to these comments, that's if you've actually read the whole thread.

OP your wife not wanting to have sex is very unlikely to have anything to do with your performance. Don't get hung up on how to 'do' sex in order to please a woman... well not yet anyway, seeing as how that effort would be wasted on the woman in question.

Your first port of call should be to leave your wife and have a fun, NSA type relationship - nothing too serious - with someone who wants the same thing, in order to rebuild your shattered self-esteem.
And even as I type that, I suspect there's zero chance of it happening cos you're so institutionalised that you probably won't leave :(

Only you can change it now though - your future is in your own hands.

The issue is that sex is about so much more than the physical act, it does/should (?) bring you emotionally closer together, it (should?) make you feel safer and being able to be more open together. It is something you actually "do" together rather than co-parent and co-housekeep.

So lose of a sex life can mean loss of being a couple.

Not sure I'm expressing myself but sometimes I want sex because I'm really in the mood and sometimes I want it for the closeness it usually brings.

Plenty I'm not seeing the DH as a malicious person here, unless proven otherwise. He wants sex with the person he loves and the mother of his children. It's ok for you to sit on the sidelines essentially saying he's a crap person because you're not him and you lack empathy skills, but some people have partners they love who don't want sex with them and that must be hard.

Where he's going wrong is not in wanting sex from his wife, but in having ample evidence there that sex isn't going to happen and not doing anything about it.

I was responding to 1950sHousewife's post about what is common among couples she knows. I do think the OP would be on very dodgy ground to try and pressure his wife in any way though, as she is so obviously not into having sex with him. I agree it must be hard - he should leave.

I have plenty of empathy skills thanks, that's why I cannot imagine enjoying sex with a partner who wasn't into it.

Plenty: so what's the solution when a couple have a seriously mismatched sex drive? Is there no scope for loving compromise? Or would you consider that coercion?

Dadissad, has your wife said what she does want? IE is she generally good company, does she indicate that she finds you good company, do you have fun together... do you think that she would like to stay in the marriage as long as she isn't expected to let you have sex on her? Or is she actually sick of you but thinks that leaving would be impractical?
Because it's hard to tell from your postings whether she is content with the current situation, whether a sexless marriage is meeting enough of her needs for her to want things to continue as they are (which would be selfish; if your partner is miserable then your relationship is in trouble and it's neither fair nor practical to ignore the issue and expect your partner to suck it up) - or whether she is biding her time until it suits her to end the relationship.
It's also possible that she's gone off sex with you because she's had years of you whining and sulking and talking about yourself all the time.

and reading women's magazines and coming on mn to post about her.

Swallowed - I agree, I'm not saying it's ideal for this tohappen, but how likely is it that every couple has equal sexual appetites.
Especially when kids are young many women's sex drives go down the tubes. Is is really so awful to think 'I love this person. No, I don't really feel like a shag tonight, but as it would make him/her happy and it would mean we are close, then I'm happy for them to hop on.'

That's not coersion or near-rape, that's just compromise. I've been known to do it myself somethings.

Have had a conversation. Feel like shit. Or maybe like a shit (something I expect sAf to totally agree with).

Not going to do all the ins and outs, but don't think it went well, would probably have been better not to have the conversation at all than end up where we did :( Still haven't grown any balls.

I don't know if I've missed something important out which is changing the interpretation, but I still can't bring myself to see her in the same way most of you seem to. I still think that maybe she will be more interested in me when we have more time and energy and if we get other bits of our life more sorted - we should soon be able to go out as a couple regularly for the first time since having children and she is keen on that, and it seems hopeful it will rekindle something. She says that she doesn't want sex because she is always tired, and when challenged yes that is for the last 6 years. She also says that I still need to do more around the house for her to find me attractive - I really am trying to pull my weight, but it's not enough apparently. I say I want her to love me and she says she made a chocolate cake yesterday because she knows I like that. Maybe I'm still deluding myself - earlier today I'd convinced myself I wanted to leave, now I don't (and actually feeling happier for that, which is strange).

Just something I really want to get a clue about though. We established that she has never masturbated and doesn't want to (her reaction suggests she thought I knew that - I did, but everybody keeps disbelieving me). She also suggested this was quite normal for other people she knows, as was not having an orgasm with sex - her comment being that it's different for women than men, and she does still claim to have enjoyed having sex despite that. I get the impression everybody commenting on here has masturbated and/or had an orgasm in some way or other - is that not actually the case or are the women on here not representative of the population? Are mn forums just as bad as women's mags in terms of understanding reality? As expected she's not at all interested in sexual therapy.

Maybe I should avoid the forums here - not sure it's doing me any good. Should have at least waited until having a counselling session on Wednesday before having this conversation, though the need to have some sort of discussion was making me feel sick (I've not really eaten today, and got sod all done). At least I don't think I've burnt all my bridges.

...just in case I need to clarify (though I think anybody I care about the opinion of seems to get it), I don't want to have sex with somebody who isn't into it, and never have. DW is still doing a good line in convincing me that we've not had sex she hasn't really wanted to (surely if she was the sort of person to have sex to keep me happy we'd have had a bit more?)

...and long distance was about 90 miles - I think most people would call that long distance wouldn't they? Far enough away to mostly only see each other at weekends. There isn't any hidden agenda here - we're both from the same culture, and I'm fairly sure she doesn't use mn, otherwise I'd not be on here.

OP. another bloke here. I posted a few months ago seeking, like you, a different perspective on where I was, and got some useful feedback

Some similar issues in my marriage, despite having always had a decent sex life, I accepted, or rarely challenged, a lack of sex in our marriage. My wife has never really masturbated, never learnt about what she likes and there is not a single thing I can do to her that I know she will like. She sees this as normal - and indeed it is one end of a range of normal. But it was more what this meant about the honesty and lack of intimacy and willingness of us both to try and meet the other half way, to try and fix the situation.

So I met someone else, who I do connect with emotionally, physically and sexually in a way that I never have done with my wife. And in a few weeks I am moving out and moving on.

I really do wish that 10 years ago I had flagged things more heavily, pushed my wife to discuss things more, given us a chance to fix things before they became entrenched. But I think we both used the kids as a reason not to do anything. And then suddenly you realise that the connection between you and your wife has faded. Complacency, fear and lack of communication on both sides.

Unless your posts are really misrepresenting the situation, I suspect your marriage is over. Sorry.

For a woman who doesn't like sex or even talking about it with a therapist and with you, where it could actually do some good, she sure seems to have been chatting and doing a lot of compare and contrast with a whole lotta other people, DadisSad. Why is she chatting away happily with her friends and not with you????

She is fobbing you off with that answer and with that cake. A cake instead of sex -- who does she think she is kidding. It is really controlling to say, I'm not interested in sex but I'll bake you a cake instead and you'll therefore stop wanting a normal married relationship and that will be enough. Did yo ask for a cake? It sounds very much as if she is playing games with you. And very controlling.

You need to insist that if she won't go to sex therapy she needs to open up in the counselling. She is hiding something from you.

Totally agree with Mathanxiety.

I think DW is being very unfair/controlling and the cake thing is insulting.

It is clearly bullshit that if you do more housework she is more likely to want more sex!

You may or may not do enough to help - she might be at the absolute end of her tether with you in a million ways - but this is still bullshit.

I very much - instinctively - feel she is hiding something from you. I think that well might be to do with your performance (sorry can't think of better word) in bed. Sorry to be blunt - posters saying that can't be the reason and she's asexual or you are not meeting her emotional needs - hmm, it's possible but far more likely is she never enjoyed sex with you because it wasn't, well, enjoyable.

And re the depression, while I agree with others she can't be responsible for that, I do think it's perfectly possible this situation has caused it.

I am sorry for the way you are feeling. I don't think the solution is 'simple' ie to leave your marriage. That's the last thing you want. I don't know what the solution is but again agree with Math - brutal honesty in your counselling sessions is essential. I don't know what to suggest if she won't at least give you that.

Two types of depression is my understanding. 1) Chemical imbalance and 2) Situational

Don't think it's quite as clear cut as that though...

I think being in a situation hoping for change but repeatedly getting that hope squashed, is a recipe for depression. At some point you have to accept that your hope is misplaced and move on. Doesn't sound like DiS is there yet. When he is, the depression may start to lift.

At the moment she's just chucking enough crumbs to keep hope raised so that you don't change her lifestyle.

If someone else came along that sparked her interest, the decision would be made for you.

Sex for me is not the focus of a relationship but is a way to connect and feel close. Without it I would feel rejected and unloveable, unattractive etc. My relationships need a sex life. Not necessarily chandelier swinging but connection through an intimate enjoyable act

I would say the vast majority of women masturbate, have orgasms etc dadissad shes fobbing you off. Sex is different for women as its usually clitoral stimulation that gets women to orgasm but its no mor difficult than it is for men once you know what your doing.

Dad your DH is being very unfair & selfish. I do not always have orgasms & in fact didn't start having them for many years after becoming sexually active but this did not change my attitude to wanting to connect with my partner. My orgasm is the least important part of it to me. Not having them is not an excuse not to connect at all. She literally wants to have her cake & eat it.

Dad,you are a person who muuuuuuuuch prefers to deal in hope,than reality.
That would be part of the reason you have depression,beacuse you are not dealing in a decisive way with your situation,it is all sticking plasters.
If you take off your hope goggles,now what do you see?

And yes you did need to have the conversation because you are not eating properly.
She herself is coming up with excuses,no idea if she believes them.

Going out together is good,whatever you decide to do as a family in the future.
No idea why you havent been doing this already.

What do you mean by,at least I dont think I have burnt all my bridges?

I find it worrying that you say "would probably have been better not to have the conversation at all". Communication is good, it really is, that may be the one thing that EVERYONE on this thread agrees with! Please don't stop trying to talk to her.

I think not having an orgasm with penetrative sex is quite common - yes, this is a difference between men and women. I would also agree with your DW that it is possible to enjoy sex without having an orgasm. (She can't be enjoying it much though, can she, if she never wants to do it?) But I would say that never having had an orgasm ever, with a partner or by yourself, is (very?) unusual. It's not unheard of though - I like desperategit's definition "one end of a range of normal". Does that help??

In response to CrystalsAreCool question - no, clinical depression is not just a physical condition. It can be correlated with lower serotonin levels in the brain, but this doesn't mean the low levels cause the depression, the depression could contribute to the low levels, it's a complicated relationship and there is no scientific evidence of a causal link.

I think it's fair to say some people are physically more predisposed to depression, but it is usually also related to something going on in your life, and your issues with relating to the world that are laid down from childhood. However, you mentioned PND - my guess is this is highly likely to have a physical element due to hormonal changes.

I'm so sorry for you reading all this, but I have to say I think it's highly unlikely your DH is going to change, whatever you do.

3 times in 6 years? I'm sorry but unless your DW has some kind of medical condition she's making excuses. No one is that tired. Yes, our sex life dwindled when the DCs were small, maybe sometimes only once every 3 or 4 weeks when they were very young - and DH complained quite a lot about that and it caused some problems. I was just genuinely exhausted, but the difference is I did try and make an effort. Now the DCs are older, we are back to a much better frequency, not like when we were first together but certainly a couple of times a week. I suspect once we don't have teens roaming the house at 11pm that figure will improve! But 3 times in 6 years?

I think the difference is I do genuinely enjoy sex and I wasn't using tiredness as a smoke screen, which sadly I suspect your wife is. I doubt mn is very different to the population as a whole - all my friends have had orgasms and mastubated - I think that is normal.

I think if you are doing more housework etc in the home hoping for some change, you're still going to be depressed this time next year, and in 5 years. Is that what you want?

solidgoldbrass talks enormous sense. If you don't want to split up, I would have sex outside the relationship. Not an affair (which is secret and will bring more issues to the relationship), more a fuckbuddy, where everyone knows the situation. Your wife can hardly object - it's unfair to expect you to be celibate if she isn't interested (and she clearly isn't, sorry). And the buddy needs to know it will only ever be just sex - there are people happy to accept that arrangement. Then you could carry on being great platonic friends with your wife and there for your kids.

Hope you can work it out. But staying as you are isn't going to do it, sorry.

You say you went to a Catholic School
Are you Catholic
Are there Catholic teachings you are abiding by.

Dad - I think amillionyears put it perfectly. You are dealing with hope rather than reality and you are lying to yourself. I am pretty sure that's key to your depression.

You are not ready to leave your wife. That's fine. You may decide to stay married - and accept having sex once or twice a year (if you are lucky, birthday and Christmas - you will be so grateful!). People do chose this option - they either get the sex elsewhere or put up with it.

I think you need to be honest with yourself. Are you happy to live like that so that you can remain married?

If that's not acceptable to you, but you want to try to save the marriage one last time and hope the counselling improves your sex life, how long are you going to give it? Another year, 2, 10, 20?

As for your DW being 'normal'. No - it's not 'normal' compared to other women. However it is obviously 'normal' for her. Another reality it's time to deal with.