As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

have her cake and eat it - what does that mean? that marriage is the cake and having to give sex you don't want is the cost of it? that sounds weird.

the sex is cake for most people. sadly not for this lady which she makes no qualms about.

OP to answer your question i don't know how old you are but no, amongst women over 20 it isn't the norm as far as i'm aware that they've never had an orgasm or masturbated. i don't think mn is populated by extraordinary sexual libertarians (there's the lay back and think of england school on here too who are the ones saying your wife should just grin and bear it and 'service' you - thankfully i'm inclined to believe that isn't what you're after). i don't think it is uncommon in very young women and in say my mothers generation (now late 60's) who bypassed the so called sexual revolution.

maybe it is more common amongst women who married young and never had much of a sex life beforehand - i don't know many from that background.

well done for talking to her. i personally don't think you are anyway ready to leave so making the most of it is probably your best option now. it sounds like things could improve a bit - this keeness to go out with you and have couple time is a promising start. essentially she is the woman you married, who was never very sexual and since having children not at all sexual. maybe you can work your way back to the sex levels you had pre-children but clearly you're never going to find yourself with a deeply sexual woman suddenly.

i think you want to stay -you make that clear - so i hope the two of you can work back towards where you were which was sex every few weeks i think? have you told her that you'd be happy with that? that you knew she wasn't very sexual but you could live with how it was and that's what you're hoping to get back to? at least then it's clear what you are after rather than her thinking she needs a total sexuality transplant.

Pretty sure OP has posted this stuff lots on MN. It seems although the talk revolves around sex, it really is just about affection, or complete lack thereof. We can ALL agree that affection (physical or other) is an essential part of any relationship and is something we are quite within our rights to expect. In past threads, everyone has said to OP to get out etc but to no avail. Some people just seem to wallow in poor relationships - the rest of us can shout til we're hoarse but it doesn't change anything. I'm not sure what OP expects to read when he posts here, and I feel a little past caring actually.

I repeat OP, don't be down on your own sexual performance. Your wife put out twice to get the babies; beyond that, she's clearly someone who can't do sex in long-term relationships. You'll find the reasons for this are rooted in her past rather than your fault.
It's not at all unusual for a woman not to orgasm through PIV sex but it is unusual for a woman not to orgasm at all.

Her using you not doing enough housework as an excuse is BS and a complete red herring. Imo that is controlling and manipulative. I don't even know what to say about the chocolate cake thing except that I find it really sad that your self-esteem is so low that you'd let yourself be fobbed off by a godam cake... :(

I don't know what it'll take to make you see things more clearly. Maybe we hardened cynics are wrong and you're right (that things will improve) and I'd' love to be proven wrong...

Quick irrelevant hijack here..

/hijack

as you were, sorry all!

Well, I think it's sounding a little bit more hopeful, well done for talking.

re: the housework, it might not be BS - it's not at all uncommon for women to go off sex when they are overburdened with domestic responsibility and come to see sex as yet another chore they're expected to perform. It's also not at all uncommon for men to believe they do more of their share around the house than they actually do. Only you and your DW know what the case really is. Ask yourself (and your DW) the following: do you get roughly equal amounts of leisure time? Does your DW get regular time to herself - i.e. away from DC and you? Do you take responsibility for your share of the domestic chores or do you 'help out'? A useful book for exploring these issues is Wifework by Susan Maushart

I doubt very much in this case that housework is the whole issue though.

Just rereading your OP, it sounds like your DW is herself unhappy with the role of 'a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good' - does she have interests or a job outside the home? Is it possible that she is also depressed?

So - just picking up on something you said earlier. She enjoys sex? So she just doesn't want to have sex with you?

So you really don't have much choice other than to continue in the relationship but with infrequent sex, or get out of it if sex is so important for you.

"She says that she doesn't want sex because she is always tired" and you say also that she still doesn't think you are doing enough to help. Maybe you need to take another look at that side of things? If you really think you are but she really thinks you aren't maybe you need a frank discussion about what it is that you're not doing, about what she is left to do which makes her so tired. One thing may be that it takes a lot of mental energy to care for 2 children beyond just the getting them dressed and feeding them.

Oh, and for what it's worth - an orgasm isn't the be all and end all of sex.

ps, is it possible that the sex just isn't very good for her? That she feels like she is just a recepticle for your needs, expected to be ready in an instant as some kind of thank you because you have been 'good'?

luimneach - Plenty: so what's the solution when a couple have a seriously mismatched sex drive? Is there no scope for loving compromise? Or would you consider that coercion?

SGB outlined three possible solutions pages back:

1. leave
2. negotiate an open relationship
3. resign yourself to not getting as much sex as you'd like

Of course you can also work on the relationship to encourage whatever sex drive your partner has.

I don't consider a relationship where one partner is having sex they don't want a 'loving compromise'. I'm pleased to hear the OP isn't going down that route.

Just popping in to say thanks to those who's posts I was tempted not to read for being blunt without being horrible. FWIW I think there's a lot of truth being said - doesn't make anything any easier unfortunately. And thanks for the re-assurance that having a conversation about stuff was a good thing - still feel desperate and sick today, but at least I think my visit here's actually made me feel a bit better. Oh and my self-esteem might be non-existent, but I was still WTF about the cake thing (why do you think I posted it?!)

LeBFG - I don't know what I'm expecting either (this thread certainly hasn't gone how I was expecting) - if you're past caring (I'm surprised that isn't the case for more of you) then you don't have to read or post, though you did make a very valid point about it being an issue about affection rather than sex - it's just far easier to label it that way. Though I don't think my memory is so bad that I've forgotten about everybody telling me to leave before - was actually going to comment on the contrast in responses to previous threads, and trying to work out what's changed in what I've posted to cause that. Also wondering what the reaction on here would be to my wife posting that I'd left her because she wouldn't have sex with me - I'm always going to be the bad guy here aren't I?

Dad,

You really need to reconnect with who you are as you are coming across as incredibly whingey. What would your 25 year old self say to the current you?

Neither of you are happy within the relationship you are in. That is sad. You have tried really hard and maybe your wife feels she has too (although it does not sound like it). If something is making you unhappy long term, you have to hit the reset button. I don't think it is productive to make this thread about sex. The problem is you and your wife have stopped communicating and, although you say you love her, I don't think either of you really like or respect one another.

It is sad for the kids if you split up but even sadder if you stay together as you are, especially if you are actually becoming depressed by it. Have a trial separation, work on your own life and esteem issues, and then, if at that point, you still want to pursue your wife, have a few dates and see where it goes.

Swallowed I was making a bad joke re cakes! But what I mean is she wants everything to carry on exactly as she wishes while refusing to even discuss Dad's unhappiness re their sex life.

Yes Dad that's what I said earlier - it's so unfair because if you leave you're the bad guy, if you have an affair you're the bad guy, if you wank over porn you're the bad guy. Pretending you don't need sex & being an eternally smiling caring supportive partner is the only way you won't be blamed somehow. But that's not fair. You matter too. And like you have said, it's not just a meaningless shag you want from her, it's lovemaking. I agree that she will never change.

doesn't sound like it is how she wishes either though midwife - she still feels he isn't doing his share of the work and is tired. very few saints in this world. i'm sure there's room for improvement on both sides.

i don't think anyone would think someone a bad guy for leaving someone who did not show any affection for years and showed no intention of changing despite the leaver having instigated relationship counselling and having suggested sexual therapy etc. though she'd probably drip feed it in such a way that initially he sounded like an arse the truth would out and people would see that he had done all he could before leaving. i dont' think the op will leave though.

OP, I didn't read your previous threads, but I'm guessing that last time you were told that this problem was not insurmountable and advised to try and help out more at home so your DW felt like less of a drudge, to talk to your DW about it, to seek counselling etc.

Given that you have taken these steps, I suppose that is why the advice has changed on this thread?

As for your comment "I'm always going to be the bad guy here aren't I?", you seem to be ignoring a LOT of posters saying "I feel sympathy for you, you are in a difficult position, you don't deserve to be in a sexless marriage" and focusing on a few negative comments. Maybe this is a self-esteem issue again?

"I say I want her to love me and she says she made a chocolate cake yesterday because she knows I like that."

maybe I missed it but... has she actually told you she doesn't love you?
I know she doesn't find you attractive any more (as you have said she has said you need to do more around the house) but what about love?

You definitely need to take a look at how much housework you're doing, as someone else said: do you and your DW get the same amount of child-free, chore-free time to pursue your own interests. You mentioned that you like sport and do a lot of it - is this eating into the family leisure time so she is having to do more chores?
Because a lot of men are still sexist lazy shits who think washing up once a week and taking the kids to the park for half an hour is 'doing loads of domestic work' sometimes a man who does a bit more than his mates thinks he is a liberated, liberating domestic marvel, but somehow his female partner still only gets about five minutes a day to sit down and relax, while he has two nights out to pursue his hobby and several hours a day to read the paper, watch the telly or play computer games.
Have a talk with your DW about dividing the chores and childcare - what does she want and need in that respect?

has she actually told you she doesn't love you?

No - neither has she said she does. I've given her plenty of opportunity - it's one of the "don't knows". Have to admit I'm not terribly good at that either (if you hadn't already guessed), but I did say I loved her recently, which was when the comments about liking her naked and her cooking also came out.

Just to get away from the relationship stuff, and onto the other part of this, which is related but separate and also very important - and which this thread has undoubtedly been very helpful with. Have been thinking about CrystalsAreCool's comment about depression - I also thought proper depression was all about chemicals, which is one reason I was so reluctant to deal with it for so long, as I was just unhappy about my situation. However the reaction has been to treat it as depression - including the first resort being drugs, which in my case don't seem to be very helpful (though I'm not on the normal drugs due to issues discussed previously - reasons which should be obvious to anybody familiar with the side effects of common ADs - not sure if the ones I am on are less effective). Have also been thinking about the stuff I'm not saying for fear of outing myself, and reckon that few enough people in real life know about this for it not to be an issue - there is a family issue with depression, as it was something my father suffered with, he committed suicide (after I'd left home, so not a childhood trauma).

Oh, and whilst I'm thinking about stuff like that I realised I didn't answer the question about being Catholic - I'm only one in the sense of once a Catholic always a Catholic. Don't really have any faith any more, let alone follow any anachronistic teachings. Though I was brought up as one, and did believe until I was at University (at which point I kind of broke a few laws by having sex with my gf).

sgb - I possibly still don't pull my weight, but I do the majority of the washing up, probably the majority of the basic cooking, a significant minority of washing clothes etc. I also do "man" jobs like clearing gutters, DIY, fixing stuff on cars (though for some reason those never seem to count the same for time taken). A lot more than half an hour down the park with the kids - though it's always a fight to get DW to relax rather than feel she's got other jobs to do when I take the kids out (and most of the time it seems she'd rather spend time with the kids than do anything else whatever she actually says - if I'm taking them somewhere she wants to come too). Maybe it's still not fair, but I can't believe it's so far from being so to be the deal breaker it's claimed.

I don't do anywhere near the amount of sport I used to - do have something on a weekend every so often, but only normally on one day with the other being a family one and in terms of evenings out doing things she actually has more than me.

As I've said already, as a woman with an average sex drive, I would find your situation intolerable were it reversed. Your DW fully expects to reject you as a lover, a husband, best friend etc and still have your 100% commitment for life. She is frankly, in my opinion being very cruel and manipulative. I don't buy the 'I'm tired' act. 6 years

There are women who only see sex as being good for babies and once they've achieved the babies they shut up shop. I suspect your DW is one of them. I don't believe she can genuinely love you to treat you like this.

There have been threads here where the posters are genuinely off sex, and desperately want advice as to how to get past it for the sake of their partner. In contrast, your wife seems more than happy to use it as bait to get you doing more stuff for her. She sounds very self-centred.

I never orgasm through PIV sex. But I enjoy it regardless. Sexual appetite isn't just about the climax part although it's the icing on the cake if you get there. You need to let her realise you cannot continue to live this way.

I should never have posted what I did OP. Your situation is made of two parts - there is the relationship and then there is the mental health of two of you involved. I now realise this thread should be in mental health and I would never, ever post in MH.

...as far as I can work out she (understandably) still resents how shit I was in the past, but only enough not to fancy me, not enough to want me to leave, and I'm struggling to work out how to fix that one. I've got to face truths here that I used to be rubbish (though I don't think I've got a completely false self image to do the old compare with other men trick and suggest I was still nowhere near as bad as some) - they're things which have been brought up in counselling - but I don't know how we get over that beyond me promising to change and doing so.

LeBFG - don't worry about what you've posted - I've coped with far worse on this thread, yours was actually pretty constructive.

"but I did say I loved her recently, which was when the comments about liking her naked and her cooking also came out."

so it's ok for you to compare love to cooking but not ok for her to make the comment about the cake?

If she can't say she loves you then she probably doesn't to be honest and if I were you I would leave the relationship.

@to use it as bait to get you doing more stuff for her " (my emphasis).

housework and childcare is not something for her ffs.

did i miss the time warp?

if you said that you loved her and then cited her nudity and cooking skills as the reason or examples of 'how' you loved her i'm not surprised you got the reaction you did. you don't seem to 'know' her. who is this woman you're sharing your life with? what do you love about her other than chocolate cake and a fanjo?