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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

As a modern man I feel conned

428 replies

DadIsSad · 26/05/2012 15:08

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

OP posts:
neverquitesure · 28/05/2012 18:35

SwallowedAfly - I don't think DadisSad has posted anything worthy of inducing queasiness. Perhaps you are imposing traits from other men onto him?

His only crime was to believe DW's premarital assurances that she was happy with their sexual relationship. By the sound of it they were both inexperienced and sex should have been a learning journey that they both actively participated in. The notion that her sexual enjoyment is solely his responsibility is outdated and wrong.

Please stop flaming him.

The sex has all but stopped. Regardless of what could/should have been done to prevent it getting to that stage the idea that a bit of cunnilingus would solve her obviously deep seated sexual problems/preferences is highly over simplistic.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 28/05/2012 18:36

< quite likes the beards > Blush

Probably worth bearing in mind that sex ed doesn't (or certainly didn't used to) focus much on the woman's role and pleasure at all. From what I can remember, it was all about the man putting his penis in the woman's vagina and having an orgasm (don't think it was even made clear that he thrust it in and out Grin), then the sperm swim up and yada yada ... I can't remember there being much mention of the clitoris at all. I hope sex ed has improved since then.

expatinscotland · 28/05/2012 18:37

'Please don't do what others have suggested and get it elsewhere, with your wife's permission or not. That is icky.'

To some people, it's not 'icky'. Hmm It's a reasonable solution for some people.

OP, you can speculate from now until the world ends but she has made it clear to you she doesn't want sex with you.

She's entitled to that.

You are entitled to make a decision about your life then.

But stop relying on her to control your own moods.

swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 18:37

yeah it's good for seeing how quickly our attitudes to pubic hair have changed isn't it?

i found a copy of the joy of sex at a jumble sale around puberty age and plucked up the courage to buy it. then i found a copy of nancy fridays 'women on top' at another slightly later on. certainly nobody ever talked to me about sex or how to go about it. i do think boys come pretty much with instructions written on them. women are a little harder to fathom i guess.

swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 18:39

neverquitesure - you post what you want to and i'll post what i want to. unless you've been given a little badge saying forum monitor. didn't know we had prefects on here.

ToothbrushThief · 28/05/2012 19:13

Dad
This thread would have gone another way if you had been a woman but the advice would have been the same. Leave.

I can hear that you don't wish to. Losing that family unit is an awful thing to contemplate plus the other traumas of divorce. Check your situation and discuss how you can minimise impact on your DC. Make sure your wife understands that whilst she doesn't wish to continue her relationship with you as a wife... this is her decision and not those of the children.
Good luck

Jux · 28/05/2012 19:17

Re your children, are you the main career? You said somewhere that you did a lot of the childcare.

Jux · 28/05/2012 19:17

And, I think you are in an abusive relationship.

neverquitesure · 28/05/2012 19:28

I agree with ToothbrushThief that "this thread would have gone another way if you had been a woman".

Except it would be Leave The Bastard instead of just Leave, plus a lot of people accusing your spouse of being controlling and passive aggressive.

1950sHousewife · 28/05/2012 19:30

I can't work out what he has said that is queasy making either. Confused

I think the whole 'not sure what I am doing' thing is not the right way to be looking either. If she is rejecting your efforts at things like going down on her, being on top etc, then that probably means you suddenly suggesting 'sensual massages' or whipping out a vibrator would be rejected as well. I just think she doesn't want sex, probably not from you, possibly not even from Brad Pitt. I totally understand you and I totally sympathise with her. It's a difficult situation.

Abitwobblynow · 28/05/2012 19:45

There's the Catholic church again.

luimneach · 28/05/2012 20:33

Swallowed a fly: never quite sure is perfectly entitled to comment on your postings without being called a prefect. You are being quite cruel to someone who is already very down, which seems rather bullying and unnecessary.

SparklyRedShoes · 28/05/2012 20:35

I think you're getting a raw deal in this relationship O.P. I'm a woman and I enjoy sex. My sex drive is slightly higher than my partners, and I can tell you that repeated rejection time after time after time would drive me crazy with frustration and hurt me also.

I think you've been very patient. I really feel for you and your dilemma.Sad

Eurostar · 28/05/2012 20:42

As I said further up but will say it again...It seems pretty clear that your wife either cannot or does not want to explore sex with you.

Ignore what some say about it being a fault in your performance. It sounds like you have tried your best with your communicative abilities as they stand to find out what she wants/likes and, she is not playing ball. People really vary in their sexual tastes and there are certainly a good number of women who cannot relax into oral and it sounds like you are being respectful when she says that she doesn't want that you don't push it. Someone who says to you that she would definitely be able to orgasm if you gave her oral is just naive about the extent of human sexuality and experience. No reason not to have believed DW when she said that she can enjoy sex without orgasm.

Your celibate life would depress many people and it is a shame that your inexperience led you to believe that she would change.

SGB said it higher up, DW cannot insist that you are celibate, any more than you can insist that she is not but you have to mutually find a way to live your lives, be it separately or together.

Nyac · 28/05/2012 20:47

"I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it."

You think you've been conned out of your right to sex. That's scary.

swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 20:50

good job no one said that she'd def be able to orgasm if he gave her oral then.

people do like twisting what's said.

i also haven't said that OP's performance is the problem - i only responded to his questions about how is one supposed to know.

OP i've no intention to be cruel - just being straight forward and honest. sounds like there is enough pussy footing around and mixed messages in your rl without recreating it on here. i also assume when a man posts on MN asking for relationship advice he actually wants women's honest opinions in all their shapes and sizes rather than just people who prioritise being 'nice' over what they think.

swallowedAfly · 28/05/2012 20:54

nyac i think the point is initially he didn't care what she felt and got on with it. then having opened the can of worms and faced she really doesn't want sex it's unfair because if he wasn't so 'nice' he could just climb on and get on with it anyway

there is so much that is grim in attitude here but the solution is really simple - if you don't want to live in a sexless marriage leave the marriage because she very clearly does not want sex with you and i hope to god you stick with your 'not a caveman' position (aka not a rapist) and don't coerce her into sex she doesn't want through blackmail as some have suggested on here.

1950sHousewife · 28/05/2012 21:08

I think what the OP means swallowedafly is that some sex is like a 'Saturday night special' where the wife doesn't really want it but is happy to lie back and think of England. It's not rape as it is consent, but must be incredibly unfulfilling for both involved.
It's a bit like having to scoop a dogs poop, something that is not particularly fulfilling, but seen as necessary. I think millions of couples are in that situation - many of my friends are. It doesn't mean the DHs are rapists or horrible people, it just means the couple has found a tolerable, if sad, way of comprimising. I guess DadIsSad and his wife haven't been able even to do that. Which means I agree with you, he should get out.

Nyac · 28/05/2012 21:11

I think this is like the engagement ring thread. There's a big chunk of the story missing by the sounds of it. OP, you sound completely detached from your wife - there is nothing on this thread that gives any sense of her as a person. You just seem to have portrayed her as an unreasonable person who won't meet your needs/do what you want. Does your wife use Mumsnet?

Also this:

"we originally had a long distance relationship"

How long is long distance? What sort of country does she come from?

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 28/05/2012 21:12

Actually I think there is something quite horrible about somebody who is happy to have sex with a partner who's just lying there waiting for it to be over. Wouldn't a wank be better?

1950sHousewife · 28/05/2012 21:15

I agree Plentyof - but I know many women who do just that. I guess they feel that they are keeping their side of the 'bargain' and would rather do that than have their DHs go off.
I'd have thought a wank would be better too, but a wank for 6 years?

luimneach · 28/05/2012 21:21

Plenty: Do you think it equally horrible for a woman to expect sex from an unenthusiastic partner?

Nyac · 28/05/2012 21:21

And men who don't get their side of the "bargain" feel conned.

I think it is pretty close to rape. It's certainly not consensual if consent has any real meaning.

RandomMess · 28/05/2012 21:23

And if the shoe was on the other foot and the woman was the one wanting a sex and her dp was just going along and doing the deed to keep her happy - would you say that was the same or somehow different?

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 28/05/2012 21:23

It's the 'D'Hs' behaviour I'm questioning - how can any decent human being want to have sex with a partner who isn't into it?