As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

OP, could it be something really simple that outs her off? DH and I don't have a very active sex life, and a lot of it is down to smell. DOn't get me wrong, he is clean, showers every day etc but I have a VERY accute sense of smell and most people's breath can turn my stomach at close quarters. Even when he has just cleaned his teeth I can still smell what DH has eaten or drunk that day or taste it on his tongue and I'm sorry to say it outs me off snogging him much, which in turn puts me off sex. I have tried to raise it and find some way round it but DH takes it all very personally (perhaps understandably) and we struggle on with infrequent sex....

Sorry about bad typing, on iPad and cooking dinner!

I don't understand how you feel conned. You need to STOP relying on her to make you happy - that never works even in the best of relationships. This passive aggro BS you're pulling on her, such as spelling it out to her that your mood is reliant on how much effort she puts into sex with you, is a cop out. Your moods are your responsibility and you need to do what you need to do to make sure they stay on an even keel, not pressure her into it. I wouldn't want to touch or kiss a person, much less shag them, when they used that kind of emotional blackmail on me.

If your lack of relationship is depressing YOU, then you do something about it - leave or get sex elsewhere after you tell her what you're going to do.

DF - if you read what I wrote, the hit rate was even better than that. We only had sex twice whilst not using contraception, we have 2 kids. Been discussed elsewhere though, and apparently not that unusual. Yes she had sex with me to get pregnant, she admitted as such, though the second time we were "practicing" with the definite implication that it was something she'd decided she was interested in doing for its own sake, and I was naive enough to think that maybe we were going to get a sex life back. Unsurprisingly I still clearly remember what she said after conceiving our second child "that was nice, we should do it more often".

She is one very lucky lucky woman then, to get pregnant so quickly and to feel like she has teh luxury to just do it once a month and see what happens, given that she would have had to wait a month to see if she was pregnant.

She must really hate sex to be prepared to do that.

Something that's bugging me about all the (quite reasonable) flaming I'm getting for not considering my wife's sexual needs. How am I supposed to know about making a woman orgasm? Genuine question - I'm trying not to be completely pathetic here, even though I'm probably coming across that way - not something I ever had in sex ed (I went to a Catholic school, so that was pretty limited), not something my parents ever discussed with me, not something my wife (or either of the other two brief sexual partners I had) ever talked about with me. You learn about your own sexual needs as you grow up, but are kind of reliant on your partner telling you about theirs unless you're psychic aren't you? I'll probably get another flaming just for asking, but would like to make more of a success of my next relationship (if I follow the advice most of you are giving and end up ever having one).

...and as I've mentioned several times, unless I've completely missed something, my DW doesn't even know about her own sexual needs, maybe doesn't have any at all, let alone wanting to discuss them with me.

From what you have just said, in your heart you have left her.
Kinder all round for you to move out too.

referring to 17.28pm post

...should probably clarify so I at least get flamed for the right thing - I haven't only just become aware of the female orgasm, and have always wished that DW could enjoy one with me, just don't know how to achieve it for her (and yes I have asked what she would like me to do), and assumed that she was telling the truth when she said she enjoyed sex (as she did say in our Relate meetings).

amillionyears - I wouldn't read too much into that comment (or indeed a lot of the other things I've said), was trying to think of the right way to phrase it, but decided I couldn't be bothered with the linguistic gymnastics. Am assuming if things do ever work out with DW (some at least still seem to be advising trying) that we'll have some advice on this, or at the least we're going to have to have a frank discussion about sex.

You are just not sexually compatible from the sound of things, to the point where a platonic relationship has developed, when it sounds like this is not something you want at all.

Now this need not be a problem for some couples, sex isn't compulsory in life, but it sounds like it is a problem for you, and indeed something of a deal breaker, plus it is affecting your self-confidence generally. This is not good.

I think (like others on here) you have to ask yourself whether it wouldn't be better to move towards a civilised and friendly separation, presumably with shared care of the kids. You might both be happier.

The question for me is why she is so sex-averse, though. I am not an expert, but I am inclined to think that your inexperience is unlikely to be a problem. Sex is not an Olympic sport, after all. Either she finds you physically unattractive (in which case, why did she allow you to father her children?), she has suffered abuse in the past and turned off her sex drive, or her libido is just lower than yours. From the clues on this thread I wonder if the last one is the case here.

If so, you are never going to be able to 'fix' that, so I think you probably have to accept the fact and move on. Either decide to live with her as she is, or find a new partner who is closer to you in terms of what you want out of a relationship. As long as you stay friendly for the sake of the children, it need not be the end of the world.

my parents didn't sexually educate me either - i educated myself. surely if you were so desperate for her to enjoy sex you'd have educated yourself on how to pleasure a woman?

i'm beginning to feel quite queasy.

Hi there,

You did make me think about that period of my life, something which I haven;t done for ages. It took me a long time to work up to leaving exDH, and I do recall coming to this conclusion during 18 months of counselling. Even then it still took me an ages to pluck up the courage to voice what I thought. I mean, were in seperate bedrooms by then, seperate rooms downstairs, just like housemates.

You HAVE to make a simple choice - is this what you want for the rest of your life. No? Then do something about it, she is not going to change.

it's really not rocket science is it?? good lovers tend to be very giving - most women like oral sex and most women who can't come any other way can come through good, relaxed, non pressured, plenty of time oral sex. if i was a man faced with a woman who hadn't had an orgasm i'd give her lots of oral sex and i'd encourage her to go on top during sex sometimes so i could get a feel for what she liked. if it turned out i'd never made a woman come i'd be getting myself some sex education.

There are books and DVDs, OP. But in most cases asking your partner what they like and/or doing more of what they seem to like generally works.

So if she says she doesn't want me to do that if I try oral sex, doesn't want to go on top, and doesn't come up with anything else she wants me to do? Remember she says she enjoys sex.

I presume the answer is asexual.

'The trouble is, I think DW is even worse than me - at least in Relate I was trying to give answers to how I felt, from her there were lots of "don't knows". If she was actually happy to talk about these things it would be a huge amount less difficult.'

You are right to feel that where you are right now is a case of one hand clapping, and I can sense the frustration that you feel when you do try to open up and find she doesn't reciprocate at all. But ask yourself if it is fair to her to change what is obviously a very ingrained habit of hers overnight since it is clearly so difficult for you also. This is perhaps where being goal oriented may be blinding you to the element of all this being a process with no destination to the trip.

I think your DW would benefit from individual counselling to figure out why she is bottling so much up (unless she is hollering it from the rooftops and you are just not hearing it; she sounds miserable and it seems to me she is protecting something with those 'I don't know' responses). Her experience of this marriage has to be utterly lonely too from what you say. Of course, if she doesn't want to or can't do it, even for the sake of salvaging things for the sake of the children, then you have to accept that she is asking you to do things her way and won't compromise (and you need to accept that you are left with choices after that).

You really need individual counselling to get over your fear of rejection, fear of allowing yourself to be known, and inability to confront even in a loving way. Could you start by trying to open up to your sister and not assuming she knows you have depression? Work hard on yourself. There will be benefits even outside of this one relationship. But it will be a journey, with lots of meandering, not a train trip along straight rails to the terminus where all will be clear and sunny.

honestly i think this is just a perfect storm situation.

OP, you're unsure of yourself, sexually and otherwise, desperate for validation and terrified of rejection.

your W knows that. she also knows she's not all that interested in sex - as many people are, no harm in that, it happens.

BUT she knows she can get away with not worrying about your wants and needs in any way - because you are a fearful and unsure person. so she just doesn't bother.

added bonus: she's learned that the more she withholds and ignores, the keener you are to lick her boots and keep her content in every single possible way, because you're so afraid of being alone. no effort on her part whatsoever. of COURSE she's not going to be constructive in therapy... what would she get out of it??

perfect win for her really. and it doesn't matter that you get nothing, because you'll take that, and she knows it.

seriously OP, just get out now.

Oik, hadn't thought of it that way, but what you say has the ring of truth, like some sort of Victorian wife reclining on the sofa being an 'invalid', making everyone tiptoe around aiming to please them.

I wonder what would happen if the OP went to the next Relate session and said he was fed up tiptoeing around her and being desperate to please when he was getting so little back, including in the sessions themselves? I wonder what the counsellor would say?

I'm sorry I accused you of sleeping with prostitutes, it's just there was another thread a while back by a guy in a similar situation who was and I wondered if it was you. I am sorry that you're depressed and I'm sure the pasting you're getting on here is not doing much for your self esteem! It is brave of you to admit that you are inexperienced and not sure how to bring a woman to orgasm. I'm sorry, but it's a bit of a myth that women instruct you on how to do it! Maybe later into a relationship they might guide you a bit, but it sounds like it's always been a bit awkward between you and your wife when communicating in the bedroom.Have you never had bloke mates who you've spoke to about this kind of thing? Even the boys I had teenage fumbling with at least made some clumsy attempts iyswim so they must have heard it from somewhere? I won't go into detail as it's making me feel a bit icky, and I'm sure googling it will throw up some instructions, but I will tell you for nothing that most women do not climax just from penetration but need clitoral stimulation. If in none of your relationships you have made no serious attempt to ensure your partner has an orgasm, then you won't know how to do it. It takes practice, even for us.

The boat may have sailed with your wife as I imagine it will be a bit strange, but if you met someone new, you are started from scratch so both finding out what eachother likes so it won't be so obvious that you lack experience.

Please don't do what others have suggested and get it elsewhere, with your wife's permission or not. That is icky. Either try and reignite the spark with her and put some work into making it enjoyable for her, accept that it won't happen, or simply call it a day. Good luck and hope it works out for you.

I also believe that there is a woman out there that will make you ridiculously happy, and a man out there that will do the same for your wife.

The classic text on all of this is "The Joy of Sex" if course. Because it is supposed to be a joy. Just ignore the beards!

And the monstrous bushes!

Hair does indeed figure fairly prominently.