As a modern man I feel conned

[DadIsSad]

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

it does depend on how much pestering or expectation there has been surely? I mean, if the OP has been buying flowers and chocolates and then suggesting sex it does come over as being a horrible high-pressured situation for his wife. On the other hand if he has been sharing his feelings, talking to his wife and sharing the burden of having 2 kids and so on without expecting something in return then that's different isn't it?

Trouble is we don't know if there was something that happened 6 years ago (Aside from the birth of the first child) which put your wife off sex with you, although you (op) have been very clear that she has said she just doesn't like sex. With you or period, who knows.

No, Proud, I can't. Because I'd never have married someone with such a mismatched sex drive in the first place. I have a reasonably high one, but had a boyfriend who just couldn't get enough - I mean, 3x/day. He just knackered me out.

But since this case has already happened, and she doesn't want to have sex with him, it would appear he needs take one of SGB's three options or keep obsessing about the sex he's never going to get from her.

I haven't seen anything but the last thread a few weeks ago, but now Dueling's post has made me very curious, and on top of the reference to being 'goal oriented' and the mention that you were a shit in the past I have a lot of questions swirling around in my head.

Plus there is the frustrated 'what the heck do women really want' tone to the initial post, and then the 'I'm the bad guy' remark that make me wonder how controlling you are being here; maybe you feel you are now a changed man on the domestic front and what you are doing with the cooking and cleaning, etc., is the equivalent of her making a cake?

Is it possible that your wife is trying to communicate with you but you are actually not very good at listening?

I am really interested in what being a bit of a shit consisted of and how you became aware of what you were doing. I am getting more and more of a feeling that there is more to this than has been revealed.

Just need to stop the Chinese whispers thing. I never said was a shit in the past - the exact quote was:
"as far as I can work out she (understandably) still resents how shit I was in the past, but only enough not to fancy me, not enough to want me to leave, and I'm struggling to work out how to fix that one. I've got to face truths here that I used to be rubbish (though I don't think I've got a completely false self image to do the old compare with other men trick and suggest I was still nowhere near as bad as some)"
which was in reference to how much housework I did. I've never expected to be waited on hand and foot, have always done some cooking, washing up, cleaning, have always changed plenty of nappies but didn't used to do anything like my fair share - for example I don't think I used to do any washing of clothes, and I was away quite a bit in the year after the birth of our first child.

BTW - the 6 years is counting from conception, and 3 times in 6 years actually seems kind of like a high end estimate given that before I started "whinging" and when I first came on mn it was once in 5 years.

Picking up on what Duellingfanjo said, I have also read those comments in previous threads.

I wondered if you had exerted pressure on her.

I remember you saying you confronted her about the lack of sex, a massive argument ensued and the upshot was of this row was that she agreed to have sex with you at some point soon. That doesn't sound very constructive to me at all.

DadIsSad,you dont have to answer everything on these threads.It is your thread.

I sometimes get the impression that you do that so you dont have to deal with bigger issues.

Do you have any intention of doing anything major?

OK, another quick clarification:

I couldn't help but see a comment from the OP on another of his threads where he said his wife had said she "would be interested if I'd agree to stop if struggling to climax (as happened last time we tried last year) when she stopped enjoying it."

by "as happened last time" I mean that I was struggling to climax then, not that I kept going when she stopped enjoying it (I stopped).

DadIsSad,you dont have to answer everything on these threads.

I don't - or at least I don't think I do - but some things seem to get misinterpreted and get a life of there own (hence the Chinese whispers comment), and sometimes I think somebody has picked up on something important.

You're right that it's an easy reply for me to make - more involved ones take me more time to think about. Yes I do plan on doing something major, just not quite yet.

...in the meantime I'm still trying hard to open lines of communication

I am really not getting the distinction between being 'a shit' and 'being shit'.

What did you do/say that made you shit?

(And sorry, but your wife is married to you and not to those other men who are shitter than you)

Was it what you did or didn't do, or how the decision came about as to who would end up carrying the burden of the house and children/who would work away a lot that rankled? This sort of question focuses on how decisions are made in your relationship. Was there more assumption than consultation in the process?

You also hint that your sport took up time on weekends and that you competed at a high enough level to win frequently. Was there training time during the week too? How much time per week did your sport take up when the children were babies/toddlers? How was it decided that you could devote time to the sport?

What are you planning to do that you call major
And approximately when

Math & duelling - I agree that chocolates & flowers are a bit crass but I think we are taking the actions of a human being who has been starved of sex and intimacy and assuming they were the same actions that got him into this situation in the first place. I don't think that is the case.

It has been 3 times in 6 years FFS!! If he was pestering her he was clearly not very good at it (I mean this tongue in cheek)

Actually 2 of those times should be discounted since he was pretty much just being milked for his sperm which I actually find find more controlling.

so you 'weren't as bad as other men' and you're now 'a modern man' - it all reeks a bit of wanting badges simply for not being a complete neanderthal rapist. i'd be really curious to hear the op's wife's take on this story.

you used to be waited on - having all of your clothes washed and ironed and put in a drawer for you is being waited on btw. so you were child like essentially - the only people who need their clothes washing and their stuff taking care for them are children. you became another burden on her, another child who had to be cared for. it is VERY unattractive to have a man child.

then you became emotionally childish - sulking, waiting to see if she notices you're upset or comes and touches you, blaming all of your emotional troubles on her - making her responsible for your emotional well being (she's not your mummy).

none of this is attractive. i could not fancy someone who behaved like a child i'm afraid. simply becoming less of an arse around the house does not necessarily win back attraction and respect - crying and whinging and throwing your emotional problems in her lap will totally undo any progress on your self responsibility in the domestic department.

i think you need to grow up and take responsibility for yourself, your emotions, your well being. be a grown up man and she may come to be attracted to you again. keep whining and whinging and sulking and there is not a chance in hell.

just to clarify some men seem to think it's caveman or wet blanket in terms of behaviour. we just want grown up human beings generally. it's like any other relationship in that you need to be able to respect someone in order to like them and be attracted to them and see them as an equal and a partner (in and out of the bedroom).

if you behave in ways that make it hard or impossible to respect you as a whole seperate adult sex is going to dwindle imo. we're not turned on by people we have no respect for. if someone makes you take care of them like a big selfish kid - whether domestically or emotionally or both the attraction is going to die.

Swallowed - I agree about the whole man-child thing but I still don't buy that he's brought this all on himself. I'm also skeptical that he can make her attracted to her again as it doesn't look like the sexual attraction was ever really there. I'm not trying to allocate blame on either side. Someone posted something earlier (specific I know!) about OP and his DW having separate but complimentary issues that have bound them together in an otherwise unsuitable relationship.

Applying a bit of armchair psychology to the situation I would suggest that DadisSad might have a touch of Learned Helplessness and his wife appears to have control issues. Not a great match.

just a quick question, what you were saying was "would be interested if I'd agree to stop if struggling to climax when she stopped enjoying it." yes?

never said he brought it all on himself though nqs. just trying to look at it from the other side given it's a man claiming to want to know what us 'modern women' want.

random aside what do you do when some inconsiderate idiots are repeatedly revving up some souped up car echoing all the way through your house (and ever other one in the street)? presumably police don't want to know. it is really pissing me off!!!

Oh hang on - it's only since April you've been making an attempt to pull your weight? This April? So what - four weeks? six? After six years of being (a) shit. If I was your DW I think it might take me a bit longer than that to move on from the resentment and to trust that this 'new man' act will last.

I'm actually uncomfortable with this thread. I think OP is using it a bit like therapy and talking out a whole lot of stuff for you all to judge on. I know it's a public forum but OP (and maybe even his DW) may have proper mental health issues. Would you be comfortable with yourselves knowing you're giving out strong-arm advice/opinions to a mentally fragile person? I really think this should be in MH.

plenty, to be fair I thik he's been doing more for a while. I mentioned a thread he started in April, he's not said in this thread that he made changes in April.

Hang on. My Dh does some, but not much of the house and home stuff because he has a really full on job. (days, evenings, weekends etc.) He 'helps' with the kids and housework, but essentially it's down to me.

I accept that. I am often knackered as I'm also at college. But I am not so exhausted and outraged as to think that having sex with him a handful of times in 6 years would be a good move and fair in our marriage.
It's a red herring. I think the tiredness thing is reasonable for shortened periods, but this has gone on too long.
It's not a case of debating words or what impression you are giving on here, it's a case of working out whether this is a situation you can put up with long term. I don't think many men, and also many women could do without not only the sex, but also the closeness, words of affection etc. Chocolate cake is a start, but it's not much of an effort.

You say that you think that you used to do it every night you were together but that your wife disagrees. Although 3 times in 6 years is not normal, neither is it normal to have sex every night when you have 2 small children, I can't remember if someone already asked this but what would your idea of a good sex ife be? once a week, once a month?