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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

As a modern man I feel conned

428 replies

DadIsSad · 26/05/2012 15:08

Amongst the negative thoughts running around my head at the moment (maybe I should be starting this on the mental health forum?) I just thought I'd start by sharing this one. I think I'm a fairly enlightened modern man - I'm posting on here for a start - do lots of childcare including going with kids to things where I'm the only bloke, most of the cooking, and plenty of other stuff around the house. I don't pester DW to have sex, or do anything she doesn't want. Though I'm still in the dark ages because I told her I like the way she looks naked and the meals she cooks when she does something special (I do lots of boring cooking, she does the more interesting stuff - is that also a gender reversal?) - apparently this means I see her as a woman who cooks, cleans and looks good, which is so last century.

But I've read a few women's magazines - and yes I do appreciate that a lot of them bear little resemblance to real life - and followed a few threads on here. Apparently modern woman is supposed to enjoy sex just as much as men do, and not just see it as something they're obliged to do to satisfy their men (until they no longer feel that obligation) and to have children. I've been conned - at least if I was a cave man I might not care what she felt and just get on with it.

We've just had our last session of relate counselling (which is where her reaction to what I thought was a compliment came out). If you've followed my previous thread you might have seen me mention thinking about suggesting sexual counselling - well I bottled it. I could just envisage her reaction that there was nothing wrong with her, so why should she - she doesn't seem to think there's anything at all abnormal with having no interest at all in having sex with your partner, or that she's missing out on anything. For the record she has never had an orgasm, and I suspect she has never masturbated (I recently found the sex toy she bought at an Ann Summers party still wrapped in the original packaging hidden away in a cupboard).

Not really sure what anybody can say to help - just feeling rather depressed today that this is as good as it gets (unless I take a drastic decision - one described as an ultimatum when mentioned as a potential solution during our sessions). I would have carried on with Relate, but not convinced it was getting us anywhere new and DW wasn't keen on taking more time off work for it. Oh, and DW is still reluctant to admit how directly my depression is related to our lack of relationship - I tried to really spell it out to her how my moods changed depending on how it was going and how much I was thinking (generally negative thoughts) about it. But I'm still not sure she took it in, and whether she'll be surprised that I'm down again today - I'm sitting here over 24 hours later after her saying she would make more effort, and she's yet to even touch me, yet alone kiss me.

OP posts:
SparklyRedShoes · 29/05/2012 12:10

Oh please swallowed a fly. Lighten up do.

SimpleDad · 29/05/2012 12:11

Because a lot of men are still sexist lazy shits. Rubbish but then SGB's advice/slant to men always revolve around how much housework we do!! I'm sensing a few issues here.

Anyways, back to OP. Always hard to advise in this situation, (and I am sensing you a looking for somewhere to vent), as there are always two sides to this. The only advice I can give is what I used when in a similar situation; communication.

Once I had gotten through to her how I felt and vice versa, we could at least sympathise. We may not have agreed with each others view on the problem but at least we understood where we were.

I appreciate it must be hard if one side is not prepared to listen or talk. Keep talking on here, it will help.

By the way, kudos to you for coming on here. You must have known you would get flamed. I, like you, have found MN to be mostly beneficial and there is some great advice on here. I truly believe that it has helped me in being a better husband.

Good luck.

CrystalsAreCool · 29/05/2012 13:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amillionyears · 29/05/2012 13:22

You are trying to deal with a number of small,side or non changeable issues ,without dealing with the big ones.

oikopolis post of Mon 18.14pm is good.

The fact that your wife only has to make a chocolate cake for you to change your mind about leaving rather sums things up.

You emotionally change things at the pace of a tortiose.Unless you are prepared to do something major,you will continue to go round and round and round.

You are looking for a magic solution and there isnt one.

newby2 · 29/05/2012 13:32

Agree completely with amillion. Dadissad, yours was the first ever post I read on here the last time you posted here a couple of weeks ago and I remember there was a MOUNTAIN of advice and you left the thread because you were basking in the afterglow of an amazing night after no sex for a long time.

Pretty much every-one told you to move on, it isn't going to work and you pretty much left the thread at that point and rejoined when your wife had finally had sex with you.

What advice are you asking for? It's not about being an enlightened man, its about getting something from this situation which holds you here in your depressive state.

You must know that?

Triffiddealer · 29/05/2012 13:36

Crystal, I don't think going into a complete breakdown as to who spends exactly how much time doing what is the issue. I am sure OP is far from perfect in that regards - but he's showing willing. We all have to negotiate childcare/housework/DIY/work/free time. But for most of us that negotiation doesn't exclude a need for intimacy/sex/affection (for 6 years!!).

OP, why are you concerned about being seen as 'the bad guy'. Are other people's opinions more important than your own happiness? I think the only counselling you need to do is for yourself - try and work out how come you have such low self esteem.

SGB gave you 3 options. A few people have re-stated them.

  1. Stay and shut up.
  2. Stay and find sex/intimacy elsewhere
  3. Leave and try and find a rewarding sexual relationship with someone else.

There is no magic wand that is going to make your DW want sex with you. The above are your only options - that's the reality.

newby2 · 29/05/2012 13:42

Hear hear! posting the same problem with a different "woe is me what do women actually want" twist is a little unfair on the people who took time and energy to care and advise in the first place. You've still got the same issues after your wife finally let you have sex with her the last time.

If you're asking for a whole thread to collude with your lack of self esteem which your wife takes advantage of and tell you to stay with her, it will get better, you're a little misguided.

Leave her or stop moaning about her until she puts out again!

DuelingFanjo · 29/05/2012 13:55

You wrote in another thread you started in April "Is doing my share of the chores really something which results in warm feelings, smiles and cuddles? Surely the whole point is that is something which I shouldn't expect any gratitude from my DW for, it's just something I do?"

I am sure you are not like this at all but some of the men I know do have a tendancy to say stuff like 'I hung the washing out for you' or to make a big deal out of the fact that they have washerd up. If you are doing your fair share of the household tasks without being instructed or directed or helped and are not expecting a round of applause in return then fair play to you. Are you expecting sex in return though?

Lemonylemon · 29/05/2012 14:05

OP: I think that you're in something of a Catch-22 situation. From what I can gather, you've (and I quote) been a bit of a shit in the past. Can I surmise that something in her has died as a result of that? Maybe not enough to give up her lifestyle and stays for the sake of the children?

Your depression: I was in a marriage that was going nowhere. My DH was on shift work, going off to play golf all day when he wasn't at work, leaving everything for me to do. I was working full-time and commuting at this stage. I was depressed for about 2 years and on Prozac for about 6 months. Eventually, I managed to get my DH to go to Relate where he commented "It's her problem. She's the one who has to do something about it". So I did. I left. Didn't go back to the doctor for a repeat prescription once the 6 month prescription had run out. Funnily enough, my depression lifted pretty much as soon as I got out.

You come across as someone who's trying, but seriously, you might want to consider whether it's too little, too late.....

neverquitesure · 29/05/2012 14:07

Ask yourself this: If she met someone else and left you how would you feel? Upset obviously, but underneath that would you feel full of despair or relieved and hopeful?

Also ask yourself whether you would still have made the same decision to marry her knowing what you know now.

Why do you think she will change? I agree with the poster who said she is throwing you just enough crumbs to keep you there. She is undoubtably frightened of the relationship ending and what that may mean for her and your children but yet she is still unwilling after six years to make a proper attempt to address the issue. Is that because she knows sex therapy will not work?

Blaming you is a delaying tactic. Therapy means working towards having sex and she does not want to have sex with you (sorry). Maybe she has fallen out of love with you and is scared to admit it to herself? Maybe she has no idea why she doesn't want sex with you and is grasping at straws.

Oh, and no, you are not the Bad Guy. Are you afraid of having to play that role for a while if you do leave her?

neverquitesure · 29/05/2012 14:11

Another thought, whilst it causes me immeasurable pain to do so, I do have to agree with one of SwallowedAFly's suggestions that you quantify exactly how much sex you think is reasonable.

I'm not handing over my prefect's badge though.

swallowedAfly · 29/05/2012 14:18

Grin they took mine away a week after getting it. it didn't suit me anyway.

neverquitesure · 29/05/2012 14:24
Grin
mathanxiety · 29/05/2012 14:47

How much of a shit were you in the past? What did that consist of?

SunRaysthruClouds · 29/05/2012 15:37

DadIsSad - unfortunately what I am getting out of this is a picture of two people who are completely unable to communicate with each other and open up. Your virtual inability to express your love in words, plus references to Catholic upbringing regarding sex to me = 2 seriously repressed individuals.

I think you will not progress by taking any more advice on here (except mine of course Smile )

You are far more likely to learn to open up (both of you) with continued professional support. But you must both want to resolve it. And eventually you may both be able to express everything you want to, physically or otherwise. Or you may not, in which case you should separate.

Proudnscary · 29/05/2012 15:55

Re the housework - trust me I am a raging feminist about housework/admin/childcare and we split it equally (well dh does more but we think about it equally - wouldn't occur to etiher of us to think otherwise) but it is STILL a red herring!

You don't shun sex for six years because your dh doesn't do stuff round the house. Yes I get there could have been growing resentment but if she liked having sex with you she would have had sex with you. You most certainly wouldn't use it as a bizarre bargaining tool - you hoover and I'll put out.

I truly believe dw doesn't like sex with you, full stop. If she really doesn't masturbate (unlikely) then I imagine that is as some kind of misplaced guilt/penance/loyalty because she's not having sex with you.

mathanxiety · 29/05/2012 16:03

How did you come to realise you were being a shit?

CrystalsAreCool · 29/05/2012 16:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amillionyears · 29/05/2012 16:30

You have great big fears which are paralyzing you from doing anything much at all.

Would it help to list them on here,say 1 to 10,starting with your biggest fear,and working your way down.

solidgoldbrass · 29/05/2012 16:41

I always mention housework because it's important. If a man in a heterosexual relationship does not do his fair share of the housework and childcare, his female partner is likely to go off sex with him simply because it gets harder and harder to feel love or lust for someone who is treating you as their servant. It also seems to be true that the more selfish and lazy a man is WRT domestic work, the more he's selfish and lazy about sex ie pesters for it a lot but is crap at it. So sex becomes one more chore the woman is expected to perform for the man's benefit.

oikopolis · 29/05/2012 16:50

you see, that comment about "being the bad guy" is just a perfect illustration of this perfect storm i was talking about at 18:14.

to a person with healthy self esteem, your approach of frightened acquiescence and tip-toeing and people-pleasing in the face of BLATANT dismissal of your emotions is absolutely ridiculous. i mean really ridiculous. i had a conversation with my DH about this thread yesterday and he was like this Hmm

i think there are absolutely no negative consequences for your wife's years-long dismissal of you. you ensure that. you're so afraid that her bad treatment of you will end in her abandoning you physically, that the more she hurts you, the more you try desperately to please her. which is sad really. you're effectively entrenching yourself deeper and deeper with someone who cares less and less about how you feel.

[actually now that i know your DF committed suicide, the root of your issues comes into sharper focus. depression and then suicide of a parent basically means automatic abandonment and people-pleasing issues. let me say it again, you need therapy very badly indeed.]

this whole situation really is, to me, an example of two people with perfectly complementary ishoos coming together in a destructive, even parasitic relationship.

she's a poor communicator, complacent, probably not very empathetic, and not focused on adult relationships.
you're a poor communicator, anxious, desperate to please and terrified of being rejected.
together, you're locked in an eternal dance where neither of you is going to rock the boat hard enough for anything to change... her because she's happy, you because you're terrified.

DuelingFanjo · 29/05/2012 16:53

Absolutely SGB. Being treated with so much disrespect RE the jobs both people should be doing without thinking can lead to a person just thinking their partner can sod right off if they then expect sex on top of it all.

I couldn't help but see a comment from the OP on another of his threads where he said his wife had said she "would be interested if I'd agree to stop if struggling to climax (as happened last time we tried last year) when she stopped enjoying it."

Now, forgive me if I am wrong but this implies that on previous occasions he has failed to stop when she is not enjoying it. Could this mean, op, that sex has not been enjoyable for her yet you keep on going and going. I know you also made mention of her being 'a bit loose' down there after having 2 kids.

I dont know, it just makes you sound a bit of an arse. is this the being a bit of a shit that you mentioned earlier?

expatinscotland · 29/05/2012 16:58

I'm sorry, but I would go straight off any man who thought and obsessed so much about sex. It would drive me batty!

Proudnscary · 29/05/2012 17:02

He's obsessed about sex because he's had it three times in six years, expat.

I think most people, men and women, could empathise with that?

orangeandlemons · 29/05/2012 17:02

Expat, you have posted what I didn't dare sayBlush.

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