"Daddy dropped me on the floor"

[gladiolus]

I have been having some problems with my dh - we're going to relationship counselling after he admitted he needed help. He can be verbally abusive and manipulative, twisting my words to mean something other. I can give as good as I get in return, but I would rather not have to, KWIM?

I've been on the verge of leaving him so many times, but this takes the biscuit.

My youngest dd is 4.5 and when I met my dh she was not quite 1, so she thinks of him as her daddy. She can be very willful and is testing her boundaries at the moment.

Last night she was being an absolute PITA, refusing to put her colouring pencils away at bedtime and basically having a tantrum. After we had given her repeated chances and warnings, my dh finally picked her up bodily and carried her upstairs, saying she was going to bed with no story and no song as punishment for her behaviour.

So far, no problem, she really was being a little madam and I had smacked her bottom. I know some people don't agree with smacking, but that's another discussion.

Anyway, when they got upstairs to her bedroom I heard a big thump and a cry from her. I am familiar with my dd's cries, this one was her "You hurt me cry" but her "I fell over and hurt myself" cry, which is totally different. I hear the "you hurt me" cry when I smack her bottom and when I accidentally pull her hair when I'm brushing it (she has very long curly hair and it gets knotty easily - I do try not to pull but now and again it happens).

The point is, this one was definitely the "you hurt me" cry, it had that undertone of accusatory aggrievedness in it.

My first thought was, "OMG, he's dropped her on the floor," as that is exactly what it sounded like. Then he started yelling at her to get undressed. She still needs a it of help getting undressed so I went upstairs to help her as it wasn't fair for him to yell at her to do something she can't do.

So, we got her to bed and she went quite docilely, no protests at all.

After, I asked him plainly what the noise was I had heard and he said she had thrown herself to the floor after he'd put her down.

But this morning when I was getting her ready for school, I didn't put words in her mouth at all, I simply asked her, "Last night, when Daddy took you upstairs, what happened?"

And she instantly replied, "Daddy dropped me on the floor."

I know sometimes children can be aggravating and she really was at her worst last night, but this is really too much, isn't it?

I haven't spoken to him yet. I took her to nursery this morning and went for a run and he's still in bed.

A small child, barely out of toddlerdom, is wound up, has been smacked by Mummy, then dropped (deliberately or accidentally, it's still awful) by her father and yelled at and she gets no comfort from either? That's heartbreaking. You couldn't comfort her because you were angry with her? She was just a tired little girl, what's wrong with you?!

Do you not realise that you are both annoyed with a child who didn't control her behaviour very well when neither of you can control your own behaviour very well?! She is 4 - what is your and your Dh's excuse? To me, you have things all backwards; you're placing importance on crap like tidying up crayons and toys and dressing herself whilst overlooking her emotional security and happiness and sense of being loved.

Am glad you two are getting counselling, your Dh sounds awful with his archaic notions about not praising children for doing what they should be doing. I bet he likes to get acknowledgement for the good stuff he does; it's a basic human drive. You will not find a single psychologist in the world who would say his attitude is acceptable. If he carries on like that, your DDs will get naughtier, because if they get lots of negative attention for being acting up but very little attention and recognition for the good stuff they do, then any child is going to go for the activity that gets them the most attention, even if that attention emotionally and physically hurts them.

We've talked. Whilst he himself will admit that he can be a bastard at times, he really isn't violent and I no longer think that he dropped her on purpose. He said she was wriggling like mad and it all happened so fast, he wasn't entirely sure what happened, but he was trying to put her down and she wa wriggling she ended up on the floor mostlt because of self-propulsion.

She came home from nursery wet from water play so when I changed her I checked her over discreetly - no bruises.

I do believe him; while he may have his faults he wouldn't deliberately harm the children.

I won't defend him. At times he can be thoroughly unpleasant and there have been times I've been on the verge of leaving. But at other times he can be lovely, and I made the decision that, if we can work through the problems in counselling, then the nice times are worth staying for. It's early days yet, and it's hard, but it's a big decisoion to walk out on your marriage. And the fact that he recognises that he has problems and issues, and is willing to work on them in counselling means a lot. I'm not perfect either, who is?

We've got a solution we're going to try. For every evening she puts her toys away without fuss, she gets a smily facve on her chart. If she doesn't, she gets a sad face. If she gets a week of smiley faces, she can pick a little packet of sweeties or a little toy from my "special box".

While dh still doesn't agree with rewarding for expected behaviour, I disagree with him, and as they are my kids, not his, what I say goes :) I have tried tactfully to explain why he is wrong but it's still my decision.

She fell on the floor and then he started yelling at her to get undressed? An you allowed that to happen?

This was the point when I intervened. I was already on my feet when I heard the thump and when I heard him start yelling at her, I was up those stairs in a shot.

I think you sound lovely OP

Thank you - it's so nice to hear this after people tell you how horrible you are! But I'm not always lovely, although I do try. Last night got out of hand and neither of us dealt with it awfully well. We know that. Dd's behaviour is still within the realms of normal for her age and we have to leanr how to handle it.

It's hard as my first dd was very placid and easy to handle (she's 11 tomorrow) and, with his sons with his first marriage he worked away a lot and barely saw them when they were little, so he has no experience of pre-schoolers, so we're both a bit clueless as to what to do.

I bet he likes to get acknowledgement for the good stuff he does; it's a basic human drive.

Yes, I pointed this out to him also!

If he carries on like that, your DDs will get naughtier, because if they get lots of negative attention for being acting up but very little attention and recognition for the good stuff they do, then any child is going to go for the activity that gets them the most attention, even if that attention emotionally and physically hurts them.

Agreed. On paper, I know all this, of course I do. But sometimes it's harder to put it into practice when faced with a screaming child who's defying you at every turn; you feel helpless. I do make a point of praising her for her good behaviour.

Hopefully the chart will work. It has worked in the past.

I think you both need to take stock of your parenting tactics.
From what you said, you are making her behaviour worse.

Did you tell her initially (and calmly) that the punishment for not putting away the pencils would be no story and no song at bedtime?
Or that she would be taken kicking and screaming to bed?

Have you tried "putting all her pencils in the bin", for example?

You can always get things done by using authority (proper) or by making things fun.

I sometimes "drag" DS to bed, but it's done playfully. Sometimes I even have to "wrestle" his clothes on and off.

There are no stressing bedtimes at our house, even if DS is not 100% compliant. If it happens it's quickly dealt with and we move on.

dont think taking away story rouine at bedtime is good- you should always end the day on a good note surely?

and askin he to "promise to behave tomorrow"? that isnt right - small children need immediacy. behave or what? and concrete objectives - eg tommorow i will put toys away. so your rewardingchart is good.

have you got some large egg timers for couting down ?

www.amazon.co.uk/Sensory-Toy-Warehouse-Minute-Timer/dp/B00447DG92/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337692041&sr=8-1

(more times in the "customers also bought...)

make it a race - see how many toys you can put away in ten - however many she does is fine, tomorrow we will try and do more...

Did you tell her initially (and calmly) that the punishment for not putting away the pencils would be no story and no song at bedtime?
Or that she would be taken kicking and screaming to bed?

No, I told her initially (and calmly) that the punishment would be sitting on the simmer-down step, which is something we do when nothing else seems to be working.

But before I had chance to do that, dh swooped in and dragged her upstairs and told her there would be no story and no song. He explained today that he thought if she sat on the step for a few minutes, it would be putting bedtime off even further, which was what she wanted.

I don't agree, but if I argue with her in front of him, then we aren't presenting a united front.

you should always end the day on a good note surely?

Which is why I made sure to give her a goodnight kiss and hug. I don't think dh would have if I hadn't but I was pleased that he followed my lead and did.

I've always hated the threat of throwing away children's possessions.

I think it's unfair and it has the added end result that I have to spend money to buy more, which is a problem for us at the moment as we don't have an awful lot.

Sorry OP I don't like him and I would have him nowhere near my children in future. You can never be sure what happened and that would be enough for me.

"it would be putting bedtime off even further, "
what time was it actually?
what time does she go to bed?
how much later was this going to make bedtime?

"which was what she wanted"
was it?

what did she actually want?

If you deliberately hurt a child you generally don't then comfort them.
If you accidently hurt a child then surely the first thing you do is to comfort them no matter what has gone before as that is immediately forgotten as your child is hurting.

Poor poor parenting by your h. Damaging actually. Please get yourselves on triple p or similar parenting course at your local childrens centre, will help no end

what time was it actually? It was about 7.35pm

what time does she go to bed? We go upstairs at 7.30pm usually. Then, with the things we do upstairs, getting changed, story, song, etc, she is usually in bed by 8.

how much later was this going to make bedtime? Well, the five minutes she'd be sat on the step, plus the time it would then take to put the pencils away which were scattered all over the table.

was it?
what did she actually want? Probably not to go to bed and to carry on colouring.

Look going slightly off the subject...

I'm sorry but with the very very best will in the world, sometimes parents do not act in the right way at the right time.

I am not saying this in relation to the dh or anyone hurting a child, let me be clear.

I'm saying this in answer to the people saying OP needs parenting classes and was evil for not hugging dd.

My dd is extremely challenging and tantrum-y. When you have had 10 massive meltdowns in one day and you are frazzled and on the point of tears you cannot always distract/stay calm/count to five. Surely no-one on this thread can claim they have not got to the end of their tether and screamed and shouted or been unable to comfort their dc after yet another showdown?

I try so very hard to always remember I'm the adult and to balance punishment with telling her how wonderful and loved she is...but I'm human.

"But before I had chance to do that, dh swooped in and dragged her upstairs and told her there would be no story and no song. He explained today that he thought if she sat on the step for a few minutes, it would be putting bedtime off even further, which was what she wanted.

I don't agree, but if I argue with her in front of him, then we aren't presenting a united front."

Come on - WHO is ruining the united front here? Your husband! If you are adamant about a united front and he's not playing, what you're left with is you capitulating to all his decisions. Will you be bringing up his undermining of your parenting in your conselling sessions? Surely it's just as bad to behave as he has done, as it is to come up and give a child a treat when the other parent has sent them to their room etc?

I have a feeling about this reading between the lines. The OP has a controlling husband, just my opinion of course and in that case he should be nowhere near HER children let alone dishing out punishments.

JustFab is spot on the money. If you accidentally hurt a child or if he or she accidentally hurt themselves, any normal parent's reaction is to automatically give them comfort, no matter how angry or fed up they were before the accident. Why do so many parents see dealing with a child as a battle they must win over an equal?

OP, I suspected your Dh was not your DD's bio father. Not criticising step-parents, but it does seem unhappily common for stepfathers to feel the need to throw their weight about and be the Big Man, the disciplinarian. Step parents should not be the ones who are the primary disciplinarians, both in deciding on discipline or implementing it. If my DH dragged my child off in the way you describe, having a united front with him would be the last thing on my mind. The united front you should be showing is with your DD over this bullyboy.

He tries to be a bit controlly but I don't let him, which leads to battles between us. We both want to be the one in charge. I'm used to running things my way and so is he, which is another of our problems.

It is he who insists we present a united front.

Initially when we moved in together, my thought was that they are my kids, I get to say what's what, but he pointed out that if I want him to be a father figure to them, he gets to have a say also, otherwise they learn that what Mummy says goes and anything Daddy says can safely be ignored.

So we try to compromise and when I don't agree with what he is saying I agreed not to argue with him in front of the children. Instead, I talk to him afterwards. We have both compromised on various issues. But I wasn't happy that he'd overridden my decision about the simmer-down step and I told him so afterwards.

OP, I suspected your Dh was not your DD's bio father.

Well, I did say that in the first post :)

OP, come on, what did your gut say to you the other night? You're defending him now to the hilt.

You do know that couple councilling doesn't work when one partners "issues" are manipulation and verbal abuse don't you?

I think YOU need to stop smacking your children OP. I think your bullying dh will see that as a green light to be generous with physical punishment.

well soemthing to alk about in counselling - tho counselling together is not reocemdned if there is any kind of abuse going on - make sure is v expereinced counsello..

what does your older child think of it all?

She hasn't offered an opinion on last night but she doesn't like dh :(

Well OP you have your answer, out of the mouth of babes huh.

Do you want an honest opinion? Here goes.

You think he is capable of throwing a four year old on the floor in temper.

You children do not like him.

"he wants to be controlling"

He does not think children should be praised for doing what they're supposed too.

HE IS NOT EVEN THEIR DAD! Yet had this kind of toxic and scary control over your children's lives.

You have thought about leaving him many times.

What the actual f*ck are you still doing with this man and letting him "parent" YOUR children?

You know what? You sound really sensible actually and as though you have tried and tried to do the right thing with regards to a united front etc. this would work with A DECENT MAN. Your H is imvho abusive and controlling and a bully, the Right Thing will not work with him.

You have wanted to leave him many times? So leave him. I bet your 4 year old will stop acting up immediately. Your children are being forced to spend their childhoods living in a house and being told what to do by someone they don't like .

The only reason I am still with him is that he begged me to stay the last time I was going to leave him and said would I consider staying if he got some help. He admitted that his behaviour is sometimes abusive.

Considering I asked him to go to counselling with me months ago and he refused, I saw this as a positive step.

We are only three weeks into the counselling and the jury is still out as to whether it's working. It's early days and it's not a magical cure. He still actually has to do what we agree in the counselling.

But I have to work at it, right?

I have seen threads on here where the first course of action recommended is counselling.

So we're trying that. It's the only thing still keeping me here, the hope that the counselling might actually work and he will recognise and stop the unpleasant behaviours that he sometimes exhibits.

I second akaemmafrost OP, I whole heartedly do.