"Daddy dropped me on the floor"

[gladiolus]

I have been having some problems with my dh - we're going to relationship counselling after he admitted he needed help. He can be verbally abusive and manipulative, twisting my words to mean something other. I can give as good as I get in return, but I would rather not have to, KWIM?

I've been on the verge of leaving him so many times, but this takes the biscuit.

My youngest dd is 4.5 and when I met my dh she was not quite 1, so she thinks of him as her daddy. She can be very willful and is testing her boundaries at the moment.

Last night she was being an absolute PITA, refusing to put her colouring pencils away at bedtime and basically having a tantrum. After we had given her repeated chances and warnings, my dh finally picked her up bodily and carried her upstairs, saying she was going to bed with no story and no song as punishment for her behaviour.

So far, no problem, she really was being a little madam and I had smacked her bottom. I know some people don't agree with smacking, but that's another discussion.

Anyway, when they got upstairs to her bedroom I heard a big thump and a cry from her. I am familiar with my dd's cries, this one was her "You hurt me cry" but her "I fell over and hurt myself" cry, which is totally different. I hear the "you hurt me" cry when I smack her bottom and when I accidentally pull her hair when I'm brushing it (she has very long curly hair and it gets knotty easily - I do try not to pull but now and again it happens).

The point is, this one was definitely the "you hurt me" cry, it had that undertone of accusatory aggrievedness in it.

My first thought was, "OMG, he's dropped her on the floor," as that is exactly what it sounded like. Then he started yelling at her to get undressed. She still needs a it of help getting undressed so I went upstairs to help her as it wasn't fair for him to yell at her to do something she can't do.

So, we got her to bed and she went quite docilely, no protests at all.

After, I asked him plainly what the noise was I had heard and he said she had thrown herself to the floor after he'd put her down.

But this morning when I was getting her ready for school, I didn't put words in her mouth at all, I simply asked her, "Last night, when Daddy took you upstairs, what happened?"

And she instantly replied, "Daddy dropped me on the floor."

I know sometimes children can be aggravating and she really was at her worst last night, but this is really too much, isn't it?

I haven't spoken to him yet. I took her to nursery this morning and went for a run and he's still in bed.

Or her lack of trust could point to just that a lack of trust and may have absolutely not bearing on whether or not he would drop the child on purpose
I think part of the reason the op thinks he did it as she has smacked her child in temper and perhaps assumes that he could also do this. The op feels guilty about as she has said she knows its not the right thing. Maybe the feelings about her own actions are projecting into what she thinks her dh is capable of. There are lots of reason she may feel he is capable of doing this.

Im with DPrince, I think there is a guilty conscience at play here, the DD had been smacked for not tidying away her pencils (not doing something dangerous as shared earlier), the situation was clearly out of control, if the OP was seriously fearful for her DD, then she wouldnt have let the DH take the DD upstairs mid tantrum.

In addition the OP, refused her DD a hug, so given that she thought the DH dropped the DD on purpose, why would she do that.

Projection, guilty feelings, seen it before, the DH has accused her of being too soft on them, so the OP has gone too far the other way.

Poor kids thats all I can say.

I disagree with both DPrince and WHatname here. There are plenty of solid reasons for the OP to suspect what she suspected.

And this wasn't a situation of her 'letting' him 'take' the DD upstairs. He swept in and carted her off, no questions brooked, no conversation invited, a real 'talk to the hand' gesture. Short of standing in his way and prying the DD from his hands, I don't think there was any way she could have stopped him. She stayed downstairs until she heard the thunk possibly out of fear of being accused of not presenting a united front. When she came upon the scene she felt 'he I think he was far too angry about her behaviour to pick her up and comfort her'. It was his yelling at her to get undressed despite the fact that she can't do it all by herself that brought the OP upstairs too. The refusal of the hug is something the OP admits to and says she was too wound up to make it a possibility. Nothing good in the situation, therefore, but it was the intervention by the DH that took it across the line into dangerous territory. He is the one in the driver's seat here.

Coming in and sweeping the DD off bodily is not something the OP could have stopped and it is not a case of her 'letting' him do that.

in sorry math - I usually see the sense in your post - but I cannot understand the blatant ignoring of the fact that the OP had already lost it and smacked DD.

Nor can I see why someone who was So fearful they couldnt intervene would lose that fear a few minutes later.

I think one of them sweeping dd up mid tantrum is standard practice - this time it was DH.

I cannot get at all the blatant disregard on this thread for the physical violence from the OP to DD from posters I would stake my life would be up in arms if the DH had done it.

This thread is one of the oddest I've read in years.

Posters

And to be fair math the OP made it clear in her very first post her and DH were jointly disciplining DD and she didn't have an issue with him taking DD upstairs.

" Last night she was being an absolute PITA, refusing to put her colouring pencils away at bedtime and basically having a tantrum. After we had given her repeated chances and warnings, my dh finally picked her up bodily and carried her upstairs, saying she was going to bed with no story and no song as punishment for her behaviour.

So far, no problem, she really was being a little madam and I had smacked her bottom. I know some people don't agree with smacking, but that's another discussion."

You are ascribing a situation and fear to the OP she didn't have - she agreed with what he was doing in taking DD upstairs - I can picture the warning DD has from OP in my head.

It's quite clever the way he's manipulated her into accepting his way of bringing up her girls. Not saying he'll take his cue from her and when in doubt let her lead the way, but that they must present a united front in the children/' presence so she can't intervene when he goes over the top.

OP, you need to rethink that agreement.

Jux I do think the OP has become a disciplinarian to suit her DH - as I previously posted I've seem (and tackled) it - but that doesn't excuse her behaviour - these girls are living with a dad who doesn't like them and a mother who hits them - there is no excuse for either.

whatname you are exactly right. If the dh smacked the child then blamed the stress the op puts on him, everyone would condemn him. math you are blatantly making things up and adding bits in to suit that he did drop her on purpose. You have tried 'why would the op be suspicious' as previous post there could be many reasons. Now you elobrating for the op ands creating scene that did not happen.

The 'so far no problem' part is because the OP is probably used to having her approach overridden, and I have a feeling that the H has done this sort of thing before to the point where she has normalised it and also normalised the smacking. (She is also blaming herself for the smacking part and taking partial responsibility for the incident). This time there was the thump sound that made her pay attention followed by the yelling to the DD to get undressed; I think the instinctive 'he dropped her on the floor' came from having this sort of scenario play out before and the knowledge at the back of her mind that there is a tipping point lurking there in the home, maybe the fear that he had reached it and that things were no longer in her control.

math your posts are full of, I have a feeling, I think etc. Even when its contradicts the op, which you justify by saying that she doesn't know what she is doing. The op can think for herself. You are assuming alot even though its clearly not true.

Nevertheless, op is not parenting her children the way she would like to.

She does not trust her partner.

He is, in her words, manipulative and verbally abusive. He has called her a fucking cunt.

IMO, she needs some distance between him and her children most importantly, but also between herself and him.

She should be blaming herself for the smacking and she did contribute to the incident - whatever it was.

I cannot for the life of me understand why you are excusing her behaviour - if, and it's a huge if, the DH did drop the DD that's inexcusable - but the OP also needs to face up to her own actions if the DDs are to have a normal life.

She has also made it clear she "gives as good as she gets". The Op is no shrinking violet. They are both volatile.

I don't get it - most of the posters here would be up in arms if the DH smacked the dd for not tidying up - what's the difference?

I wonder what she has called him?

And let's not forget all of this is being carried out in front of 2 young and impressionable children - no wonder the DD is testing boundaries and playing up.

Quite. Distance is needed.

She has tried so hard to love him, but he doesn't return it. When I talk to him about it, he just says it would be inappropriate for him to love a female child who is not his.

So he won't love your children and he also doesn't believe in praising them. What a lovely warm chap he sounds!

Makes you wonder why you ever thought he would be good for your kids to have around.

I am concerned for these kids. He refuses to love your kids, he is verbally abusive, you (by your own admission) give very similar back, you smack but don't shout, shouts but doesn't smack. At the end of the day you were both wrong. I think you need counselling for how you deal with the Childs behaviour. I think you are both causing these problems and they will only get worse. If you decide to end the marriage, I would still continue counselling. despite what some posters think, leaving him may not solve all you parenting problems.

FFS how many times do you want to hang her for the same crime? She's said repeatedly she can't excuse the behaviour and sounds as if she could do with some advice and strategies. The fact she on here and graciously taking the verbal kicking means, I think, she is looking for guidance.

It's as if it's a competition to be the most outraged by continuously dissecting the first post. The OP has since described how when trying to disengage from an escalating situation the problems she encounters with dh

If you are truly concerned for the dd don't you think helping the OP disengage she would make clearer decisions. Currently this chocolate teapot of a thread must sound like another row with the dh going round in circles, blame etc

I agree kettlecrisps - the problem here is dh and OP needs support in dealing with him.

My friend underwent three separate sessions of counselling. Each time the counselling improved things for a little while and then they relapsed and the low point was always lower than the previous low point.

Now that she is happily divorced, she blames the counselling for prolonging the agony for five long years.

All I'm saying is that we recommend counselling as though it's some kind of magical solution to everyone's woes. A few sessions with Relate does not equal complete change in character and dramatically improved family dynamic.

You have to work out what you can live with OP.

DP, do you want me to make definitive statements then? The OP is clearly caught up in the dynamic the H has established in the home. Enough is known about the dynamic in this particular home from the OP's statements, and about the way the process develops in homes where this sort of man holds sway, to be able to confidently predict the consequences for the children because sadly this sort of situation is not uncommon. Enough is known about this sort of dynamic to state with a lot of confidence that the smacking is part of the dynamic. It did not cause the H to do what he did. It feeds his behaviour to some extent, but he is the engine that drives what happens in this home. I don't think the actions of the OP in this home can be viewed outside of the context of a cycle of abuse that is not of her making. Everyone here reacts to the H.

Given the behaviour and attitudes the OP reports about this man, I am surprised there is not more than smacking to report on the part of the OP. They have all been conditioned to revolve around him, to try to win his approval; the oldest DD was rebuffed and now lives in a home where she doesn't really know where she stands. (In a few years she will find a bf just like her stepdad and post somewhere that she can't make him love her.) The younger DD is being put in her place by both the OP and the H and told who is the boss, whose temper and potential for violence she must be aware of at all times, sometimes by means of very unsubtle messages like this incident. She is being conditioned to stay in his good books.

The OP is also caught up in trying to make the H approve of her. He has set the parenting bar at a place where she is forced to override her mothering instincts in order to keep him sweet and perhaps (best case scenario in the delusion) prevent the sort of violence towards the children she feels he is capable of hence the smacking. It was supposed to make the DD comply without the intervention of the H, and to keep the H off her back for her allegedly soft parenting. She is being asked to choose his way or the highway really, and what that boils down to if she stays under the same roof is choosing him or the children. She is conditioning the children on his behalf because she is trying to tread the very fine line that exists between throwing them under the bus completely and getting what she wants (the relationship with him) but the fine line requires the compliance of the children, which is not guaranteed and hence the smacking and harshness to the DD it gives her an illusion of control to do this, but on this occasion things went wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but the idea that she should be strung up from a lamppost for smacking while the elephant in the room goes unnoticed is a bizarre take on this. Smacking is not the worst crime in the book (IMO, though it is far from ideal) and smacking in this case needs to be seen in a larger context.

Arrgh, kettlechips speaks sense

This thread is supposed to be about SUPPORT.
Will the smug brigade rein themselves in for one actual minute????
No wonder op hasn't come back!!!

Well said pingu

I suggest you move out now. He's not a nice man. If it makes you feel like you are sticking to what you said, you can agree to keep going to the counselling sessions and if he learns from them and turns into Mr Nice Guy you can move back in. Of course he wont, but at least you and your girls can see that from a distance.

Enough is enough my love. He's not good for you or your girls and that's what you need to prioritise, not him and not the 10% of the time he's 'a nice guy'.

Find your inner strength and do what you know you need to do.

It was supposed to make the DD comply without the intervention of the H, and to keep the H off her back for her allegedly soft parenting. She is being asked to choose his way or the highway really, and what that boils down to if she stays under the same roof is choosing him or the children.

Frankly - crap - that much thought doesn't go into losing your temper.

And I understand abusive relationships just as well some posters and probably more than some others.

I just happen to read this situation and the OPs posts differently to you and I am as entitled to voice my opinions the same as the next person or the previous person.

There is no way on this earth you would accept anything a woman or child did made violence from a man towards that woman and child acceptable, the explanations you are putting forward smack of "she made do it".