"Daddy dropped me on the floor"

[gladiolus]

I have been having some problems with my dh - we're going to relationship counselling after he admitted he needed help. He can be verbally abusive and manipulative, twisting my words to mean something other. I can give as good as I get in return, but I would rather not have to, KWIM?

I've been on the verge of leaving him so many times, but this takes the biscuit.

My youngest dd is 4.5 and when I met my dh she was not quite 1, so she thinks of him as her daddy. She can be very willful and is testing her boundaries at the moment.

Last night she was being an absolute PITA, refusing to put her colouring pencils away at bedtime and basically having a tantrum. After we had given her repeated chances and warnings, my dh finally picked her up bodily and carried her upstairs, saying she was going to bed with no story and no song as punishment for her behaviour.

So far, no problem, she really was being a little madam and I had smacked her bottom. I know some people don't agree with smacking, but that's another discussion.

Anyway, when they got upstairs to her bedroom I heard a big thump and a cry from her. I am familiar with my dd's cries, this one was her "You hurt me cry" but her "I fell over and hurt myself" cry, which is totally different. I hear the "you hurt me" cry when I smack her bottom and when I accidentally pull her hair when I'm brushing it (she has very long curly hair and it gets knotty easily - I do try not to pull but now and again it happens).

The point is, this one was definitely the "you hurt me" cry, it had that undertone of accusatory aggrievedness in it.

My first thought was, "OMG, he's dropped her on the floor," as that is exactly what it sounded like. Then he started yelling at her to get undressed. She still needs a it of help getting undressed so I went upstairs to help her as it wasn't fair for him to yell at her to do something she can't do.

So, we got her to bed and she went quite docilely, no protests at all.

After, I asked him plainly what the noise was I had heard and he said she had thrown herself to the floor after he'd put her down.

But this morning when I was getting her ready for school, I didn't put words in her mouth at all, I simply asked her, "Last night, when Daddy took you upstairs, what happened?"

And she instantly replied, "Daddy dropped me on the floor."

I know sometimes children can be aggravating and she really was at her worst last night, but this is really too much, isn't it?

I haven't spoken to him yet. I took her to nursery this morning and went for a run and he's still in bed.

You have only failed if you stay..

That's a very brave admission, gladiolus.

Now you've said that "aloud", is it giving you more clarity? It's not your fault that the man you married turns out to be a bit of a shit, and refuses to have a proper relationship with your children. It's his fault.

I don't know what your wedding was like, but usually marriage vows include each person promising "to love and to cherish" the other. Well - he's broken that vow, hasn't he? Calling someone a "fucking cunt" and repeatedly verbally abusing them isn't "cherishing" them is it? Being callous and angry with your children not only when they are frustrating, but as a matter of principle, is not part of "loving and cherishing" you - your children are part of you.

One of the original points of marriage in its most basic sense is to provide a stable and safe framework for the raising of children. You are doing your utmost to provide that. He isn't. :( In all honesty, do you think you would be a better parent if he weren't around? Less angry and nervy?

Hi OP. I very rarely do this, but wanted to offer my perspective. My stepdad was verbally/emotionally abusive towards me, my sister and my mother. My childhood was ruined by him.

I was in the loft the other day and found a diary I had written when I was 9. I had written that I hated him, and that I had asked my mum to leave. I wrote her response down - she wouldn't leave because he would 'get better'. He didn't. He did, however, die when I was 13, which I hate to say, was a blessing.

I've never forgiven her for not prioritising our happiness and safety over him, or even her own, for that matter. The legacy of my childhood and the emotional abuse I suffered will always be with me, and I have had to undertake years of therapy in order to function.

If she had left him, I would have felt free, like I did when he died. She would have been doing what any parent should do, and I would have felt valued and loved.

My son has said "killing is fun" and also "don't hurt my willy again" when I was cleaning him in the bath. He has never had so much as a tap on the bum for a misdemeanour, nor has he seen anything violent. It's hard to know.

This thread is vile, Low flying birds- wtf????

The OP has come here for support, is in an essentially abusive relationship and you call her spineless? Shame on you.

Gladious. Please don't be put off. You are getting some great advice from people who actually know what it's like to be in an abusive marriage and will advise you from that angle, rather than mindless supposition and conjecture.

Just came on to this thread op, please find the strength inside yourself to leave him.
Like you said, you do not need a man to validate you.
As for smacking, that is a totally different thread so people shouldn't be judging you for it, i have tapped my children on the bum (not very often) for doing dangerous things like touching radiators on purpose, running into road and when they have been extremley naughty & im not ashamed to admit it-it works for me and atleast my dcs wont grow up thinking bad behaviour is ok. Mumsnetters shouldn't be flaming the op for this they should be looking into the matter at hand- the relationship inwhich op is in

Penguin - if you read OP's response, she actually says the tough words spoken by some are ringing very true, that she recognises she has been selfish and got things wrong. So why are you telling her not to be put off?

Proud, I worry that even if someone was in a good, healthy relationship with no or or very few problems they would still be cOnvinced otherwise if enough women told then there was something wrong. Quite a few people on this thread have jumped to conclusions, twisted things and I'm pretty sure have projected their own experiences and emotions onto the OPs situation.

I'm not saying that this is a good relationship or that there aren't problems etc but I really hope that the OP is seeing these things because they are there rather than because so many people are telling her they are there.

Sometimes, yes it does take a kick up the backside to make the other person see things clearly, even if it is about themselves and their contributory actions as I feel is the case here.

I worry that even if someone was in a good, healthy relationship with no or or very few problems they would still be cOnvinced otherwise if enough women told then there was something wrong

Not sure I get this really, if there was nothing wrong in a relationship why would they post?

People who read these boards know that most issues here are serious ones, hence people who post usually have big problems.

Gladiolus, the question is why should you stay if your kids are miserable?

You do need to start putting them first. Having a man is not the be all and end all, and although you're saying that's not what you think, from the way you are reacting to these problems in your relationship it seems that on some level you do believe that.

Feel so angry reading about yet another woman who puts an abusive, horrible man before her precious children. How utterly depressing to read what you've said and yet you still persist in exposing your daughters to this vile man (and don't kid yourself he is anything but vile).

You know it's abuse and he knows it's abuse and you are in counselling and yet you are not taking the necessary steps -- but you are staying to give him another chance to show you his contempt somewhere in the not too distant future. If the counselling isn't changing you, how on earth is it supposed to change him?

Stop thinking that counselling is going to be a magic wand here, or that he is going to see the light and become the man you dream of.

Walking away is far from an admission that you have failed here. It is a declaration that you are a strong woman who takes herself and her children's welfare seriously.

Seeing this in terms of your success or failure is a very selfish and egotistical way of looking at things. Yes, we would all like to think of ourselves as successful, capable and competent individuals who get things right and who can sit back and look around us and think 'I've made it. This is The Life'. But when we are parents, we have to look at things from the pov of our children and ask ourselves how they would see things.

And I agree 100% with Fluffyanimal in her assesment of the 'female child' remark. This man has something fundamentally wrong with him.

I agree with the other posters, your children's welfare should come before anything else.

gladiolus

I have read your thread with interest and much sadness.

I've not been in your position so don't really feel I can comment too much, only to say, as others have, that you MUST put your children first. Always.

Also, sweetheart, having a relationship fail does not mean that you have failed. There are 2 people in a relationship, and it sounds to me like your DH has failed you by not entering into the relationship with you and your DCs honestly and completely. Is that really what you wanted, for you and them ?

As far as we know, we only get this 1 way through life. Do you really want to live it like this ? Will you look back in 10/20/30/40 years, or on your death bed and think "Yes, it was worth it" ? Knowing how unhappy you and your DCs are/have been ?

Marriage is hard, but it shouldn't be this hard. It's for 2 people to work at, not one accepting another's bad/abusive behaviour and allowing them to get away with it, until it's too late. Promises mean nothing, they are just words. Actions and changes in behaviour are what matters.

I think your DH knows damn well what pushes your buttons, and what appeals to you about him, and turns it on and off at will, and as and when necessary. But that's no life for you and your DCs in the meantime.

I hope you can resolve your problems and make a happier life for everyone.

OP: Your poor, poor DCs [cry] No man is worth that.

Proud and Scary- I told the OP not to be put off staying on the thread for advice despite being called spineless and worse - abusive herself. How on earth is that constructive?
I stand by what I said. FWIW, I also think she needs to leave him, I also think her children need to be put before him at all costs and I also think she needs to do this as a matter of urgency. I don't however, agree that the op herself is abusive, and from this one thread alone I would not dare presume her 'spineless' either.

Bumbleymummy, if someone was in a great relationship but was convinced by some internet strangers that is was awful, then she'd be so feeble-minded as to not to be fit for adult relationships in the first place. Your obsessiveness on this thread has completely derailed it. The irony is, you clearly genuine think you are helping, but by going on and on, you've turned the thread into people having to deal with you, not helping the OP. From the OP's own description, he sounds awful, I don't understand your fixation with defending such a person.

Also: OP, why are you settling for such pathetic crumbs of happiness and why are you letting your daughters grow up being emotionally and physically damaged by this bastard? Did you have that sort of childhood yourself?

Why are you staying because you promised to give counselling a go?! Surely your DDS are owed far more than him. Why are you not putting them first? He's lost the right for you to try to make nice with him. Whilst you stay, dithering about creating lists of houses and promising to go through counselling (which is wring with an abuser), those girls are being hurt emotionally more day by day. Why are you not putting them first? I feel for you, but I feel for those children more.

One " placid" DD who showed him love was rejected and now dislikes him.

One v young DD who is behaving totally normally and being horribly, unduly punished by him.

OP your dc will become very damaged if you don't put their welfare and wellbeing before your marriage to this man. That's not what you want is it? It's not worth it :(
Poor girls

Everything Oxfordbags said, with bells on!

Your poor DD - loving the male father figure in her life who refuses to return that love. How messed up is she going to be? OP you have to leave to do some damage limitation for your DDs sake.

Oxford, I object to people stating things as facts when there is no firm proof. Accusing a man of child abuse, throwing a child to the floor, flinging her across the room etc when all the OP heard was a thump is not right. If people want to comment on/ask about other aspects of the OPs relationship and offer advice about them then fine. It's up to the OP whether she wants to take it and verbally abusing her on this thread is hardly helpful.

I think if enough people tell you something is wrong there is a very real risk of starting to think it is wrong even if it isn't. (obviously in this case there are problems anyway but I think people have made a pretty good job of jumping on them and blowing them up a bit more!) I think you're very naive if you don't think that a bunch of Internet strangers have the power to influence people's opinions and decisions.

Oh Gladiolus, you know what you have to do. You've been preparing for it for ages. Your family isn't working as it is, so you have to change something. Move out. It doesn't have to be the end, but you need distance, and your children need to feel safe and loved, and they have already learnt not to.

The whole point (which you are missing) is that the OP felt sure he had done it, Bumbleymummy. How comfortable is a woman supposed to feel living with a man whom she feels in her heart would be capable of doing this on purpose? How much of a comfort is 'there is no firm proof' supposed to be? This is not a question of a court of law. It's a question of the OP's instincts and feelings.

To cast doubt on her instinct and feelings as you are insisting on doing is the most unhelpful tack to take imo, because she is living with a manipulative and controlling man who has at least once persuaded her against her better judgement (her instinct if you will) to give him another chance. When you live with someone like this, you are constantly under pressure to judge him by his intentions and not by his actions, to not trust the inner voice that tells you exactly what you are dealing with.

When you come to the thread with the argument that 'There is no proof' what you are also saying is look at his assumed intentions and not the end result; you are saying that her inner voice doesn't count unless there is concrete proof to back it up.

Math, I agree the fact that she doesn't trust her husband is a big problem. I think there are plenty of other issues in their relationship (and his lack of relationship with the girls) that could be deal breakers. People just seemed to pick up on the possibility of there being physical violence and running with it. I don't think that is the part to focus on... It is the lack of trust that makes her even consider that it's a possibility that people should have jumped on instead.
People just seem to like to start speculating and throwing accusations around and that can be very damaging. Why is sticking to the actual facts not enough?