Welcome to the Turning Tavern III

[Crushinghard]

A continuation of the TTII thread for women unexpectedly finding themselves attracted to other women.

till next week*

Oh god, i'm so glad I found this thread.

The crush I have has been building for months, I think. It finally dawned on me about 3 nights ago when my WIQ and I were some of the last stragglers in the pub after work. Perhaps it was the alcohol... but I suspect my feelings for her have been there beneath the surface since we first met, some months ago. Maybe I've been in denial all this time without even realising it.

I'm starting to realise that my background and my story are pretty typical for this thread! I'm early 30's, married with young kids, and I can remember some pretty strong crushes on both male and female friends right back to my school days. I suppose there was a lot of pressure to conform so I suppressed one side of myself, and apart from a drunken kiss with a girl when I was 18, I've only ever been with men. At least until now...

One thing I will say is that over all my feelings for women have definitely been the more sexual, whereas my crushes on men tend to be more about the possibility of a whole relationship. Although with my present WIQ, for the first time I can actually imagine what a relationship (of sorts) might be like...

Anyway, it's all pointless speculation and fantasy as she appears very much in love with her (male) dp. At least that's the impression I've had from seeing them together fleetingly. Not that I don't love my dh. I really do. I find him sexually attractive too, so I'm definitely of the 'cake and eating it' school of bisexuality! I've confessed pretty much everything to him, and not only is he understanding, it's definitely giving our 'intimate moments' a certain extra something!

I'm also finding myself thinking back over the time I've known her, and wondering if, maybe, just maybe, there's even the teensiest possibility this could be reciprocal.

Sometimes I find our eyes meeting (across a crowded office) and something unspoken seems to be passing between us... sometimes she seems to be fishing for compliments from me (or maybe she does that with everyone)...sometimes it seems like she's making excuses to spend time with me... oh I don't know, I'm clutching at straws really!

I worry she's either straight or out of my league, or both! I find the fact that she's not overly girly, but has this gorgeous long hair, really sexy. mind you, I tend to like long hair in men too... I bet I sound quite confused.

Hi OutofMyMind, - that's a good question. I think to be honest I have moments in my relationships with men where I feel complete, but they tend to be temporary (perhaps after a really great orgasm!), and although how 'bisexual' I am at any given point in my life seems to vary, I do find myself checking women out. I seem to have developed a 'type' with women too, just as I have with men. (I don't know if you've ever seen any of Simon Amstell's standup, but he does this great bit about how his ideal man is basically a more better version of himself - and that rings true in some ways with me when it comes to women!). For example, my WIQ is to all intents and purposes my boss (although the organisation we work for is fairly hippyish and non-hierarchical, so it's not as obvious as it would be in a conventional work setting).

It's interesting that you say you're 80% sure you're gay. Over the years I've definitely had moments (quite often in unhappy heterosexual relationships) where i've felt that about myself. At the moment, I'm probably about 60-40 in favour of women, if you see what I mean.

'better' version of himself, I mean! Not 'more better' - I think my WIQ obsession is affecting my grammar :-)

outmy, don't you think it's contradictory though, if she decided to move on as you maybe think and that I should tell her how I feel? I don't think vibes changed for hte worst as they were never consistent but I agree that since this man appeared on hte scene she is less forthcoming, having said that there are STILL looks and warmth like it was last weekend, andthen next day she was off (but that happened before - as I say I think she has mood swings due to hormones or generally). And what do you think of what i described on Monday - when she was standing there looking a bit lost and silent (and sort of looking away) but not walking away as if she waited for me to say something (or possibly she just liked to stand there next to me) - I know it was for a few minutes, but what I mean it's notlike vibes disappeared completely. It's just the man is distracting her, and I don't think she 'decided' to move on so much but that he is being puruasive and possibly convincing her. It's not just wishful thinking from him as one message was talking about her resistance but then later message he was complaining that they had limited time together, and he culd do even more if given more time and then it was a few sexual remarks - he wouldn't have said then if nothing happened yet. It's just might be not full blown, but ibviously she is seeing him I think now at least twice a week (or more, I don't know).
Hi NotForProfit - you sound like a racehorse! You see, reading your post I think my wiq could be of the same type of bisexuality as you. Outmy, I think wiq does have some attraction to women (and mein particular) but it's purely sexual and she doesn't see it as relationship material which is very painful to me! I mean possibly if I offered it she would agree to go with it and even be very excited maybe, BUT she wants a man for r-ship (or to stay single) for social reasons and maybe also she wouldn't sexually want to have JUST a woman, so doesn't want to tie herself to one. So say if a guy wantys a r-ship, she put this above her attraction for me if obv he's good as a lover. I may be still on backburner but maybe she also can see that I'm too sensitive to just have a bit of sex and that I'd want emotional closeness (she saw that I'm trying to get closer) and is just thinking that I'm too much to take on or too risky that I can get emotonally attached. I know it's all surmising and she may not even be attracted but from various moments I think there is something there. Yes, at some point in hte past she was more forthcpming but it was always quite brief. Also, outny she is normally confident and with goes after what she wants, and I've heard her talking to then and she tends to be in charge. Don;t you think if she wanted me she's also be more assertive? especiallly seeing all my efforts and those texts i sent? I know it could be embarrassing to her if I was shocked after all, but no one would know. I just think it's not htat, it's he fact she wouyldn't want it to be out inthe open and socially known and she would only go forit if I actually offreed just sex. I still want to tell her, I don't know how to do it best. I will now probably see her on Mond bruefly and then not for another week (forlonger) - but it really has to be a good moment when she is relaxed, no one around, not in her 'mood'. Or do you think it's better to write - inevitable the letter will arrive in the morning when she csan be busy and also there won't be direct vibes - but I won;t fluff the lines then . The problem is also I wouldn't see her immediate reaction. I can be very persistent if I know a person is struggling with their feelings for me - but if she pretends ny text in response that she has no feelings (and she does have them) I would just have to accept it as read. Or there is an option or taking her hand when i see her and sort of confessing in that way but I don't think I could have courage at hte right moment - I wanted to touch her when she was standing on front of me the other day but I knew she was about to rush off and there was a guy hanging around the place at the time (damn it).
NotForProfit I'd also welcome your opinion on how to tell her best, if you have any! so does your H think that you can be still fine only with him, or does he allow for possibility you may be purely sexual with a woman? whatever extra he does in bed it's not what a woman can give - mainly he hasn't got a woman's body!

I also find it strange how my view of men is changing. I still think (as I did before) that men are more good looking then women (bar a few very beautiful women) as they aer not embellished with makeup and if they look good it's not make-believe. Most women need a lot of enhancement, especially past 30 but even before. BUT what's strange is, I still like looking at men (I even couldn't take my eyes off one yesterday - he was so good looking and vibrant) but I just don't want them close! It's definitely wiq effect as I used to fancy those I liked the look of very quickly. I also find it harder to imagine gettting into r-ship with a man especially sexually speaking as I'm quite bored by the wgole routine that is really same with guys, and as I mentioned before men always have issues and you depend on these bedroom issues. Women can adapt, men can't - it's either lucky competibility or you have to adapt to them and their abilities. Emotionally I could still see myself in r-ship with men but only a certain type which I haven't met recently. With wiq I could EASILY imagine living together - I wish she did! (not as confident sexually but I'd be willing to try and fail as it may be - hopefully not). Wiq may be like NOtforprofit, like her to have her cake and it i.e. have both on the go(?)

*with MEN goes after what she wants

sorry, shocking typos today - feel emotional and rushing to type as thoughts run away with me!

Likeatonneofbricks - I was puzzling over the 'racehorse' comment at first - i thought maybe because of my sexual prowess or perhaps because they're bisexual? Then it clicked that it's just because of my daft name , which incidentally comes from a conversation i was having with wiq the other night... but I won't bore you with that.

It does sound likely that she could be of a similar type to me. So, if you were my wiq, and i was yours, here's how I'd like to be seduced (apologies as I haven't read all your previous posts so some of this mightn't be entirely relevant). First you suggest going out for drinks (innocent enough, right?), pick somewhere you're unlikely to be disturbed by people you know... after a drink and a half or so, make sure you've shifted the topic to quite a profound one - a deep discussion about your childhood or something - although nothing too traumatic obviously!. Then as you do, start touching her hand lightly in conversation, in a sort of casual I-do-this-with-all-my-friends kinda way. Maybe make your tone a little more affectionate than usual, but be subtle. Maybe talk about the men (or women if you're feeling daring) you find attractive (nice and safe) then say something slightly self-deprecating, and see if she tries to build you up. Then you could compliment her back... and go from there really. I don't think there's any need for a big confessional on how you feel, perhaps you could just take it one 'encounter' at a time?

Gosh, I got quite into imagining how i'd like wiq to talk me into bed back there for a while!

I just sent mine a really stupid email, just to see if she'd flirt back... feeling a bit stupid now.

outmy, yes you fluffed it a few tomes with wiq, but you are still confident /brave as you DID tell her how you feel, once even face to face, that IS confident (I haven't done it). Although you have lost confidence now due to her lack of encouragenent but you still went to clear the air!
Well, I'd like it to be 'obvious' that there is attraction for me from wiq, but it's not really obvious with that hovering, as maybe she was about to ask me whether i looked at her messages, and then decided to let it go. As I say, that's what's driving me crazy - at times it's even obvious than this timne when she hovered (grinning, looks, chat) but at others others - honestly it just feels like a slap in the face as she's cold and talks like to a stranger. I WISH this was because of her being confused about her feelings (as you say, you were appearing rude to wiq too) but I can't be sure, as equally warm moments may be just friendliness/likeng me as a person etc.
Good luck toiday!
Not For Profit - yes, I'm sure there is a horse with that name and a good one (remember watching recently. You ear in the first stages you see, and your head is not swimming and not been game-played with! outmy and myself on the other hand do not see things in straight forward light hearted way anymore, oh no. I get your point about subtle - the problen is I'm not very good at that, I'm not that 'fluid' with people especially when I'm unsure what they think of me (and I care for them) - in my case would prob come across as quite awkward. My wiq is a lot older than me (well I don't feel it but still) - which is a bit difficult with carrying off matey approach. Still I will pick up a few things from your post, thanks!

Likeatonneofbricks - interestingly my wiq is a good few years older than me too, (which could be an essay in itself, esp with the theory posted earlier in the thread about how we're trying to compensate for something missing with our mothers) but not so much that it feels like completely different generations.

I'm scared to check my emails in case a)she's replied or b) she hasn't. I suppose you're right, i haven't quite entered into the headfuck stage. Although knowing her as I do, she's quite a complex character, so that could be the way things progress. if they progress at all.

Outmymind - you sound incredibly brave to have even broached the subject with her at all. Don't think i could do it in a direct way.

If it happens at all, I imagine it'll be one of those wildly intuitive moments; certainly it almost felt like something along those lines was going to happen the other night. At the end it was just the two of us, and i was hoping we'd walk home together. And there was a pause when I was a hair's breadth away from kissing her, and she was just standing there. Pausing. And smiling.

yes, drinking together is definitely the way forward NotFor, as far as first steps go! of course standing and grinning could be also a symptom of being drunk ! I still not clear whether you H doesn't mind you seeing a woman?as if he did there wouldn't much point developing it..It helps that you aer both hippyish, in fact older women of that type aer very liberal. Mine is not at all though! not that I am, but I'm less traditional. but she definitely has a strong boyish side which interestingly she puts away when going out with a man - I can see the switch between her as she is and her performing feminine role (unless she genuinely has two sides strongly in her, which obv would go with bisexuality - I hope).
outmy is brave not only to tell her in hte first place but also to clear hte air recently - tbh I'm disappointed with here wiq who just 'rewards' her with silence and entitled-to-apology vibes, outmy deserves a lot more!

outmy - yes it sounds quite positive - I didn't think she'd blank you anyway it's your paranoia as usual! She'd be extremely rude to blank you after you cleared the air, but you ibv still traumatised from the past. Yes, I agree that your crush is more of an obsession now, though I still want to know what happens after the end of term, as tere is a small chance that she may wantto do something. Before that no point worrying too much about every smile and glance unless they aer really bad. CAn you really not find out wheter she's in r-ship though? it would really help as if she is at least you would have something to solid to grasp at. Do you never chat with parents about teachers? I remember when i was at school we all new whether teachers were single or not - and you haveteacher friends maybe they can find out through other teachers? This of course is not so relevant if she shows no initiative in hte end, but if it's half bakedthen worth trying to find out. By the way you never answered about letter versus telling her as you had to rush off - any thoughts?
I really don't get it with wiq - chat today on the phone (brief), all quite polite and not asking me much, just answer my questions - it's not great is it. But it's face to face ther aer looks and vibes but again - she just doesn't ask much about me (does sometimes but maybe because I look hurt if she doesn't talk) and wouldn't share about her personal life - I really don't know. I do think sometimes, as you said she may think she's kidding herself (if there was attraction0 and that's it's not teralistic andwon't fit into her life (I disagree but didn't have te chance to convince her), so that's my only hope. Otherwise she just thinks I'm a nuisance, even though likeable on some level. She also calls me 'girl' to other people (liketo her kids) - I'm hardly a girl at early 40s, but she either thinks I'm younger or sees me as too young (?)

lettter to my wiq I mean - meant to put that into new paragraph. Are you in the North outmy? just wonder whether people aer openminded were you aer, or is there a stigma about gay women?

sorry. havent really answered the bit about my dh. Yes, he has always known of my 'leanings', but i suppose this is the first time i've confessed about a woman (in rl) in particular. As in someone he's actually met. We have talked about the possibility of it becoming a reality (very, very unlikely as I doubt she's interested) and he says he understands - as long as I still fancy him too. I know that sounds a bit too good to be true... maybe it is - maybe he hasn't been entirely honest. I think sex is one thing, and my having a relationship with her would be another... iykwim?

and yes, she did reply. sort of jokey but not what I would call flirtatious. unless '...' at the end of an email can be construed as such.

just flicked through an old 'turning tavern' thread. saw the bit about Jessie J being gay and thought it might amuse you all to know that i used to know her when she was in her late teens. I'm about 6 yrs older than her, we worked together and I was going through a semi 'out' phase at the time, and was quite open about a crush i had on another woman... i just remember her looking at me like 'what are you on about?' and now of course i can take credit for 'turning' her! :-)

no, she doesn't use the word 'girl' woth those who know my name (but that's only a few relatives) but with her child who never met me and is not in london (on the phone) she said 'such and such girl' I don't want to out myself too much but it was just a descriptive word (nothing offensive obviously, like if she said 'the girl from work'), and also when once she was in her bad mood and i have put something in the wrong place in her flat she said to herself quietly 'silly girl' but not in a malicious way, I mean I say this about people I like sometimes if annoyed but not unkindly. It's just the word itself 'girl' - would you use it for someone who's 40 - unless you aer 40 yourself and she's a friend?
No I wouldn't say I'd prefer face to face - I want to know what will be better for her and what would have better impact. Letter for me is much easier, isn't it - if reaction is bad I wouldn't feel so awful - also it wouldn't put her on the spot. If you say she will flap and won't tell me how she feel face to face then letter sounds better. It's just letter is a risk if she is tryig to surpress her attraction and then can cokpse herself and tell me she 's not interetsted. I won;t see the truth (if she wants to hide it). And also it will be hell waiting for her o answer the letter - what if she takes her time (could I take it?), or just pretends she never received it..
I sensed you wer from the North! it's this honesty about you - I reallly think people in the South aer less upfront (i don't mean they lie but much more diplomacy going on - your wiq say sounds more South ) - but I was thinking that if you were in the north maybe she's scared of the social opinion if she went with her feelings - but if yo ulive here then that's not as likely the case.

of course she didn't think I could hear her with the 'silly girl' but i have very good hearing. I did hear her talk nicely anout me with the relative who has met me though.