Welcome to the Turning Tavern III

[Crushinghard]

A continuation of the TTII thread for women unexpectedly finding themselves attracted to other women.

Hi all, pleased to see the thread's up and running! Outmy, I'm thrilled to hear your WIQ is behaving more normally towards you - must be a relief! My WIQ and I seem to be acting more 'normally' together, although I still find myself blowing hot and cold with her. I know I'm doing it but I can't seem to help it. It's almost as if I'm on one of those toboggan runs and every time things start to go smoothly I have to apply the brakes... but being married and unable to proceed anyway I have good reason for that!

I've been seeing a lot of my WIQ over the last few weeks, would definitely say our friendship has deepened. Can't explain in what ways because I might out myself, but I think it's clear to both of us that there is a friendship forming now.

I'm still completely in the dark about what she thinks though. Unlike you guys, we're in an impossible situation of both being married with children and living the dream... so obviously unless we were to both find ourselves sans spouses one day, there is no way this can go any further than friendship even IF she does have reciprocal feelings. We've both made it very clear to each other that we're happily married, (in general conversation that is), although I do wonder if there's some reeling in and out going on in all of this.

I think at best she might have a platonic crush on me. I think she's curious about me. I sense her looking at me quite a lot, sometimes when she thinks I'm not looking, but also sometimes quite overtly running her eyes up and down me, and have for ages (years) noticed her out of the corner of my eye behaving in ways that could be construed as a little attention-seeking in front of me... (I hope so anyway, otherwise I'm a complete fantasist ). But I am very well aware that women can be that way together when they admire each other and there is nothing sexual in it.

I think she might be quite fickle so I am guarded about her suddenly 'going off' me or (shudder) guessing my feelings and running a mile! She has no reason to fear though - there's NO WAY I'd ever let on my feelings. The only person in any danger here is me - danger of getting hurt or letting my feelings run away with me. Even dh is in no danger - I would never leave him and find I can totally compartmentalise my feelings. I love him no less, in fact I love him more than ever, and I don't exactly compare him to her... if the WIQ was a MIQ I would probably be feeling v different towards dh. It's weird.

But she's a complicated character, and for all our similarities her mind works very differently to mine. I'm a thinker, she's a gregarious do-er. One thing I find quite interesting in all this is that I behave quite daringly towards her - I think she's used to ruling the roost and being quite dominant, but I hold no fear of her, and as a result am very honest, almost a bit brutal towards her at times in a kind of joking manner. I have a feeling she quite likes irreverence.

outmy, I don't think you should worry about being unfriendly, offering to help also added to it, but also she KNOWS how you felt as you sent her notes so she can't be surprised that you aer a bit nervous, if anything this would show her htat you haven't stpoped being attracted which is good if she's testing. Whether she IS testin I'm not sure as maybe she wanted to appear to others as if she's not avoiding you and is being friendly to all, but stroking dd's hair and prolonging the talk might still mean it, so it's all reasonably positive so far! after this it will be fine to walk past her if you wanted to, as at least you aer not initiating first step, but yes be a little careful if this is a 'play'.
Out if interest how do you think your bervousness show? I mean what do you appear like when you aer nervous?
Trapped, I couldn't just live in a fantasy like this knowing I'll never leave marriage and never will tell her of my feelings - how do you do it? i wonder what do you mean by attention seeking behavior? also when you aer 'vlowing cold' what's htat like? trying to compare with my wiq's behaviour who is also warm and then cool, on and off (gives me hope that it can happen in a woman who is interested)..

Likea, believe me I don't know how I do it either... In some ways I would love the spell to be broken. I am aware that there maybe psychological issues here, on my part... Perhaps it's an addiction to fantasy, to the chase, to the excitement of pursuit and being pursued. Marriage, though it brings security and long-term friendship, companionship, and intimacy, just doesn't cut it for me in terms of being particularly exciting. Believe me I've tried making my life more exciting, fulfilling myself in areas I feel might be lacking, looking at our marriage and trying to find ways to make it more exciting, but I just don't know if it ever will be. Dh, though I love him dearly and get on, most of the time, really well with, isn't particularly spontaneous or massively thoughtful of me. Sometimes I feel like a bit of a commodity to him. Still, he is a great friend, and we have a lot of fun, but I have to admit to finding marriage stifling.

Unfortunately I didn't realise this until quite late on in my life, and we have children involved now, and I personally feel that i must put my duties as a wife and a mother before anything else. I made my vows and have made a commitment to live by them. I'm not anti-divorce or anything, but i do fear loneliness, and mostly i fear unbalancing my children. I would also be terrified of ripping dh's heart out, which i know i would do, as despite everything he is 100% loyal to me, and i know he loves me desperately. So I guess fantasy is an escape for me. (I wonder, if I made a break for freedom, whether my wiq would continue to hold her appeal.) I strongly sense that my wiq is in the same position as me. In a duty-bound marriage, but fantasises about breaking free. I can't go into too much detail on here, but I sense this because she has said some quite overt comments on the matter. She loves her dh dearly though from what I gather, and she is incredibly happy with her idyllic domestic set-up. But she does fantasise about others... I know this because she told me!

Perhaps that is why I sense this connection. Without going tmi on here, my sexual fantasies don't involve her, but my sensual fantasies do, IYSWIM. Usually when I have a sexual dream, it is dh I dream about, and I don't really get off that much on lesbian sex, I only really want penetrative sex with a man. I mentioned above about the compartmentalisation I have on the whole thing, and have said before on other threads that what I want here is some kind of fulfilment involving female intimacy... But sensually intimate too. But it scares me... I've never been one for exclusive friendships. Again I find them stifling. I like to have lots of friends, but true intimacy I find very difficult to get my head around. Dh is as close as it's ever got for me.

So... Anyway, pardon the ramble... (This is like therapy to me)... The blowing hot and cold thing. Yeah, when I feel particularly uptight about being in 'her' presence, I can be quite distant and aloof. Suddenly I feel... I don't know... Clumsy? Angry? Insecure? Guilty? Foolish? Any of those things, and it makes me clam up and be quite cold and dismissive. Defensive. I hate myself for doing it, as I always come away analysing my behaviour and feeling like a total nob. I can't look her in the eyes, I'm mesmerised by her beauty (pardon the cliche, it's late), and feel ugly in her orbit! God, there's so many reasons for it. She can be quite cold and haughty herself, so while I'm not scared of her, I am awed by her.

I would also like to add that one of the main reasons why I wouldn't leave dh is because I would miss him like mad. I realised that maybe i was banging on about all the practical reasons for staying and sounding rather joyless at the same time. He is an amazing dad to our two boys and they adore him. I couldn't bear to break our family apart.

Thanks for listening...

Trappedbyacrush, a lot of what you wrote rings very true with me and my WIQ, particularly the part about her ruling the roost and being dominant. Mine is exactly the same, and I also react quite brutally and irreverently. I'm convinced that she values and appreciates this, as no-one else responds to her in this way. Either they are afraid of her, or they shrink away. Perhaps it's the same with your WIQ.

I spent most of yesterday with my WIQ. I went to her house to work (we're both freelancers, and often spend time working together with our laptops), then we went to a lecture at the club we are both members of. That's how we originally met. The journey to the lecture involved a metro ride and a walk through a really pretty district of town. When we reached our metro stop, she said "I'm really looking forward to this walk. I love that I can say those little things to you."

She has amazing long hair, and she was trying to decide whether to wear it loose or in a pin. I have always been entranced by it, and I told her she should wear it loose, as it's beautiful. Coming out of the metro, the weather had turned windy, so she tied it up in the pin, but promised she would take it down later.

She usually gets stressed and distracted at the lectures as she has an organizing role, but last night she was calmer and more attentive. At one point, we were going up some stairs and she put her hand on my back. At the end, we almost always go for a drink together, and last night was no exception. A mutual friend tagged along to the first bar, but after she went home, I suggested to WIQ that we go to a nearby cocktail lounge.

Whenever we go to places like that, she always knows about half of the people there. She's been in this city for 10 years, and is a doyen of many social scenes. I'm always proud and honoured to be seen with her, and I ask myself every day why she spends so much time with me. I'm not doing myself down, but she's so accomplished, glamorous, charismatic and wealthy. I'm twenty years younger than her, quite shy, and not so rich. She tells me stories of guys who have given her diamond rings and Porsches - I can't give her anything like that right now. All I have is my heart and my mind, and I just don't know if that will be enough for a woman like her.

In the bar, the conversation turned to her hair again, and I asked her to take it down from the pin. I'm cringing slightly as I write this, as it sounds so trite, but it was oddly meaningful. I was genuinely planning to say something to her, but I was just too afraid. We left around midnight, and before she got into a taxi, we hugged for a long time, and kissed on both cheeks as usual. I was tipsy, and I (god, this is cringeworthy!) stroked her hair and told her how beautiful it was. She didn't freak out - she just hugged me again and got in the taxi.

We planned to meet today, and I woke up to a text from her saying I could come round any time I like. We're going to have dinner with the visiting gay couple, then go to a gay bar where a lot of our friends go on a Wednesday night.

Tonight may be the night when I tell her!

Sorry for the essay... It's good to get it all out.

Caonima - sounds extremely encouraging, espesially hugging after you stroke her hair and spending this much time together with you. Good luck in telling her, i can imagine the adrenakin! don't worry about not giving her diamomds - that's hardly relevant if she is attractd, she's got enough of them already!

Trapped - i read your posts thanks so mich for sharing, v.interesting, will reply propely later as have to go now.

adrenalin

especially*

I'm at her house again now - it's early evening here, and we're working on our laptops as usual, listening to opera.

We had planned to go to the gay bar tonight with the visiting couple, but she wants to stay in and have a quiet night - dinner, maybe watch a film. It could be my perfect opportunity.

Something I hadn't mentioned (sorry to drip feed, but there's just so much to say about her and this situation!) is that there's a married man on the scene who has been pursuing her. Nothing has happened between them except a kiss last year, as he is unsure if he wants to cheat on his wife (and won't leave her because he doesn't want to lose any of his money); WIQ isn't sure if she really wants to be a mistress.

One night last month when we were talking about it, I told her I didn't think she should get involved with him. She's not the sort of woman who should be hidden away as a secret mistress. She said she likes the attention as she's lonely and wants a relationship, even if it's just an affair. When I expressed negativity towards it, she looked at me and said "Ok, so offer me an alternative."

I WISH I had taken that opportunity to say "Me. I can be the alternative. I love you and will never hide you away in the shadows."

But the truth is that I just don't know if she would want to be with a woman. She told me a while ago that if she was to sleep with a woman, it would be a friend. The thing is, she loves male attention. She hasn't had a boyfriend for years, because the guys her age that she knows are either married or gay. I also think that the force of her personality put people off.

So tonight may be the night I tell her (after a couple of drinks). She leaves for her 6-week holiday in a week's time. The alternative is to write her a letter and ask her to read it when she is away.

Trapped, I really admire you for being so dedicated to your marriage and the life you have with your DP. I think if you can compartmentalise (which it sounds like you can) you'll be ok.

.

Caonima - letter is also a good idea, but if you CAN face her (admire your courage!) then go for it as you will know for sure now, or at least if not for sure you'll know od a pitential.
TRapped - I understand exactly how your fantasies work - I'm also easily imagine the sensual closeness with a woman, but did used to like usual thing with men as it's just so easy - with a woman i can imagine it being a lot more of an effort at least to start with, and as i said before not quite sure how will I feel. BUT recently since I became keen on wiq I did strat seeing a few dreams of sex with a woman and it sort of worked in a dream - but was kind if an effort, even so I think the point is it's just hard to imagine before it happened, that's why we can't really fantasise properly, and really could only know once it does happen whether you'd prefer a man or not. but yes, im a way emotional fantasy in your case can be an exciting distracton from a routine of marriage, and it's easier to allow yourself fantasy about a woman as it seems mush safer (because it's not primarily sexual).
outmy - why cna't you look her in the eye? did it happen even when you asked her out? I really enjoy looking onto wiq's eyes - it's a pleasure i can't refuse myself. SHe's the one who can't hold it for long though - you see what you and trapped say gives me hope that her awkwardness and some aloofness (when generally she's confident and easy with people, mixed with some warnth and grinning at other times, may mean she' s also feeling something but can't admit it to me or even ca't allow herself to get carried away). WHat would happen if you look her on the yee thigh? i think you should try it once and hold the contact as to start with i was aslo looking away but since i stopped that she did warm up quite a bit - she nned to sense you ar confident about your feelings not flakey! lack of eye contact can com eacross as if you are unsure or embarassed - also you can't see hwether SHE is trying to prolong it if you don't look!).

imagining

outmy - do you think though my wiq understood what i''m getting at about wanting a less distant contact, enjoying company, and that i think a lot of her, going by that text i described, and what are the chances that she still thinks i meant friendship? i want to give her time to mull it over, before I say even more, as it could be too much pressure otherwise. But I want her to be mulling it over and seeing it for what it is (or at least a strong possibility that i feel things). Of course if she's dead-set against women as partners nothing would shift it, but I'm hoping she may be open minded.

in the eye though

Evening all, thanks for your feedback and open minds! I can well imagine a lot of prescriptive types not understanding why I just can't turn my feelings off or walk out on my marriage... But life's not black and white is it really?

Outmymind... Too right it saps my emotional energy! I feel so alone in all this as I have nobody to speak to... Certainly not dh! Even though I have lots of good friends I fear they wouldn't understand my feelings, and dh is so loveable, handsome, and popular they would think I was either a total b*tch or completely insane! Some days like today I just want to lay my weary head down and sleep forever.

The hardest thing in being friends with her is trying to act normal... To comprehend the lines between being friendly / over friendly / and even under friendly at the right times! Also the constant analysis when i feel a vibe, and then the frequent mini heartbreaks when she talks about her dh so lovingly are agony... Yet the odd high seems to make it worthwhile somehow... Then there's the guilt wrapped up in the fact that a friendship exists that is partially based on me having hidden feelings. That makes me feel bad... And a bit creepy. I can't see the wood for the trees, which is why I've been so slow to allow the friendship to happen, because I need to keep my thoughts clear, and compartmentalise the relationship as fantasy/reality. That needs great clarity of mind.

Anyway we're off on holiday on Friday (long haul and far away for a week) so I'm hoping that a bit of time away with dh will bring us closer... I need to get out of London for a while, the place is stifling me (literally!) and I need to breathe some fresh air in another environment.

.and I need therapy!

In a way I would like her to turn around and say, 'look there is just no more you and me than there is with any of my other friends. Nothing will ever happen and I simply do not fancy you at all'... But the thought of her saying that to me makes me feel physically sick, even though I know deep down that it's probably the truth.

Caonima... Let us know ASAP how it goes tonight living vicariously

Aaaargh god I'm so confused.

Likea - I agree with the thing you say about feeling safer fantasising about a woman. If this were a man I'd be hearing even louder alarm bells, but with a woman at least I can blur the boundaries of friendship / girl crush... Which is to me kind of acceptable(ish!)

Trapped you definitely need a change of scene! great that you are going away, have som erelaxing treatments when there, sometimes simple things like that can put your thoughts in order. I really understand with all vibe-analysing, highs and then mini heartbreaks (in my case when she's suddenly off/treats like just a stranger/talks to a man on the phone in what i interpret as a 'keen' voice...I asked outmy, but can do with several opinions, so do you think my wiq got the message from my rather fevernt late night texting(or at least allowing possibility) that I'm after more than friendship, as briefly outlined in last post? but I hope you saw the more detailed description from yesterday.

Trapped, I agree that a change of scene will do you good. Just being away from a situation can often shed light on it, or make you re-assess.

Things with my WIQ didn't quite go as planned last night.

It was a great day overall at her place, listening to music, chatting, working.

We finished work around 8pm and had a couple of drinks and cigarettes on the terrace, then made some supper. She decided to call the visiting gay couple to see if they were joining us for supper, but they had a big misunderstanding on the phone and she got into a terrible mood because of it. She was really quiet while we ate, and when we went back onto the terrace to smoke, I asked if she wanted me to leave. I'd never seen her like that before.

She apologised for not being very good company, and said I didn't have to go straight away. We chatted for a bit longer, and she seemed to snap out of her mood, but it definitely wasn't the time to make any confessions to her!

Before I left, we talked about when we'd next meet. She's busy all day to day with meetings, so we planned to work together tomorrow in a cafe downtown, then have dinner and drinks. I know I keep saying this, but I'm going to tell her.

Outmymind, I totally get where you're coming from when you say that maybe you should come to terms with your sexuality and date other people. I have had those thoughts too, as I have just come out of a straight relationship and am coming to terms with being gay.

But it's not that easy, especially when the feelings are so strong towards the WIQ!

Do you have a "gay scene" where you live? Maybe it would be a good idea to dip your toes into the water, so to speak. You might end up meeting someone who makes your feelings cool towards WIQ?

I'm not suggesting you give up on her, but I think it would do you good to widen your horizons (and I don't mean that to sound patronizing in ANY way)