Welcome to the Turning Tavern III

[Crushinghard]

A continuation of the TTII thread for women unexpectedly finding themselves attracted to other women.

By the way we do have things/interest in common - she asked to be involved in my hobby (in winter) next time. There are other things which ew have affinity on - it's generally having the same intellectual style iykwim.
And polly if she really didn't want me ingratiating as a friend (if that what she thinks) she wouldn't leave mne at her house and say 'thank you' for offers of help - she'd say 'no thanks'.

..obv wanting me as a friend doesn't have to mean anything more, but you made it sound like she doesn't want me as a lover or as a friend, neither.

I sincerely hope she does want you as a friend after the letter, all of us here want you to be with her in what ever capacity, just bear in mind she MAY not react as you would like.

God.. I DO know that she may not be interested!! but it's about the odds, the chances. Hence all the info I've given on here. When new people come in they also ask opinions based on their description - it's the point of the thread!If everyone on here said to me 'no way is she attracted' I wouldn't write a letter and risk losing contact for nothing. So far people thought all I described COULD - just COULD - mean that I'm in with a chance. But on hte last page polly and Gay said quite definitely that they didn't think she saw my last (quite hint-y) texts as hints at all . Surely it goes against all the earlier opinions (and mine) that she may be interested or at least wondering.

Just to sum up again (!) - the letter only makes sense if she feels something but is unsure, or needs encouragement from me. Or just nervous if never been with a woman. It does NOT make any sense if she had no such thoughts whatsoever, the letter won't MAKE her attracted to me. Yes it's still a risk -and if it's a no, Id ask her to stay friendly, and I won't mention it again. But I want to know I have a reasonable chance, not like 0.5%!

Likea I did not say she doesn't want you as a friend, I said she might think that is all you want, to become a good friend - ie she is not interpreting the signals you are tying to give correctly. As I said earlier, if she's not expecting it, she may not be looking for it.

How is this a negative thing?! She might need her eyes opening to how you feel, that was the gist of what i was saying.

Why do you keep gunning for me Likea? I've answered your q's as honestly as I can, based on what you've written. Gay and I have both said all along it's likely the only way you will get to the bottom of this is by, when you feel you can, sticking your head above the parapet and telling her how you feel. In person, by letter...that's got to be your choice, but we can only go on what you write, we're not there in person with you so don't have the knowledge you have.

polly I'm not gunning for you as I mentioned that Gay's comments on last two pages were in the same vein - I'm sorry but they seemed thoughtless comments when I need a sensitive input! I'm been morethan supportive to you when you felt like talking about your wiq in great detail, especially one night when no one else was around on hte thread. I really went through the details and answered all you little questions. I feel that all Im getting lately is flippant comments (from Gay also) as if no one is interested anymore - and htat's when i need advice most as I'm gearing up for a letter. THe point that upset me was taht you both categorically said that she didn't see mu last texts as hints, and yst you both advise a lettr - where is the logic and real reading through recent developments? THe frend thing was not that important - but you said that sh ethought with age gap she may not want to encourage friendship - and that's why she didn't respond to 'ingratiating texts' but for some reason neither you nor Gay could consider that she mau have seen the texts as hints and wasn't ready to deal with them, hence the silence. IT's easy to just say 'write a letter' but I need to sse if you think I have a real chance with er (not a guarantee) not just advise hte letter when yo uthink she's not interested. And she COULDN't be interested, could she, if she never even wondered whether the text hinted at something (which is the case according to you). Can you see why it's frustrating?
If you mean I'm gunning for you re your wiq - that's nonsense, I actually think it's bad for you to pin your hopes on her, everyone would advise a friend not to get obsessed or hopeful about a clearly uninterested partner, I'm being protective! obviously it's your decision whehter to listen but I did spend a lot of time reading and discussing your situation and that is my opinion, if anything I'm pissed off with your wiq for being unresponsive and putting you through all this and slightly teasing you for no good reason.

I'm trying to understand whether she's attracted (or a reasonable chance of that) before sending the letter, that's all I'm doing, I just don't believe that 'opening her eyes' to how I feel will make her suddenly attracted, if she's not feeling anything by now (?)

Likea. It is absolutely impossible for any of us to say whether a WIQ is interested. We can speculate all we like, but the over analysis is actually just muddying the waters. You will never know whether she is interested before you send the letter.

If you think a bunch of random strangers on the internet can interpret her texts as interest/friendship/dismiss - we can't. We have advised you to bite the bullet and make your feelings known, and deal with the consequences. You can't create a safety blanket of finding out whether she'd be interested without actually finding out whether she is interested.
I'm sorry if you think me or anyone else is being thoughtless. We aren't. But it is impossible to accurately assess her attraction to you from your reporting of your interactions. I am not being flippant. This is very serious and real for you and I do not underestimate that. But we cannot, cannot assist you in creating a failsafe bombproof method of establishing her interest without you putting your head above the parapet for her.
Just write her the letter, fgs. And if she's shocked, so be it. You'll have your answer.

G, I'm not after guarantees from you or bombproof method. Again maybe my explanation is still unclear - but I wouldn't want t osend a letter if everyone thinks there is NO chance, and it sounded like that's how you interpreted her silence to texts, that she's not getting any hints, that she doesn't think anything og these comments. Surely if she had any attraction or curiousity then it would at least cross her mind that I may be hinting. The fact yo both said she didn't see then as hints with such certainty doesn't logically bind with your advice for a letter, that's what made me see it as flippant. You used to be more positive about her possible interest in me before, and /i did stick my head a little by saying that i will ne missing her and will do more of she asked etc - it's step to prepare for really being direct. But you think she had zero reaction - if you don't now then why say with such certainty that it sounds like non interest, in which case advice would be not to write!? what would i acieve by writing if she's not even considering those texts as hints? I will write but only if i feel the mood is right fronm her, and still as warm as it's been recently after she's back, if I see that she cooled it after the texts, then this would mean she can see what I'm doing and doesn't want it.
The whole point of this thread is to get opinions, otherwise why not advise everyone 'just tell her, be direct', why then go inti all the decsriptions of their behaviour, progress etc., if the only advice is 'we don't know, ask her'? You and polly are bioth experienced and I'mnot so I value advice. And it's generally an outsider's cool head that helps. That's not to say I ONLY base my decision on opinions but I do take them into account quite a lot (and so far I've beeen encouraged). Thank you though for commenting that it's all serious and real to me. It's scary to get it completely wrong, I wouldn't mind her not wanting to go through with it for whatever reasons but I would be mortified if she doesn't feel like this at all, whatever the degree.

stick my head above*

Likea I can sense your frustration. I think the reason Polly and Gay have advised writing a letter is it sounds like you're in quite a lot of pain over this and it will definitely give you the final answer. Are you ready for it? In truth, only you can really decide whether to go ahead with this or not as only you really know the vibe you and your WIQ have. We can all advise you but some people will say yes and others no. There's no definitive answer. All I can advise is to listen to your heart and follow your gut instincts.

I wrote a much longer message but it got lost in the ether. Will write properly tomorrow x

thanks Loveis, it's a bummer with messages getting lost when you get logged out! do repeat if you still remember tmwr. My heart does say there is smth there from both sides (more fr me obviously), but she may not be the type of person who follows her heart (unlike me) - and i may be wrong. Will see what she's like on her return, will be upsetting if she cools down due to txts after my building it up slowly, my optimism is very up and down atm.

likea - At the end of the day we are just random people on the net who will never be able to witness the things you describe and so we can only judge from what is written here. Meaning we might judge wrong.

But I can't help being reminded by a situation my gf described from when she was younger. My gf had never been with a woman. A female friend she was close to kept telling her much she liked my gf, how special she was and would do odd things like ask to sleep in her room because she was scared of sleeping alone - they lived in a shared house - to which my gf agreed or randomly buy her really nice gifts. She was very tactile and huggy with my gf as well.

At the time my gf thought this other woman was lovely, but slightly needy and was just desperate for a close friend. Now she looks back and thinks duurrhh! how could I have missed her signals that she was obviously interested.

I think what can seem obvious to you can not even occur to someone else, because as someone else said upthread, most women don't expect to get these signals from other women. The fact that your WIQ is older may complicate things as she may think any of your signlas are becuase you are looking for a mother figure and therefore you are being slightly more effusive than would be normal for a friend.

It is hard as I don't actually know you. But you do sound over the net as if you are being tormented about this and maybe it would just be better knowing one way or the other. So maybe a letter would be best so you finally know. Yes it is a risk of course, but maybe one worth taking?

Also, our opinions are formed as we go along. So as new information comes to light, the sands shift to give us a wider picture of what's happening. When you like a person in that way, it's natural to read deeper meanings into everything that they say and do, interpreting it to fit what you want to happen. But the reality is, unless you tell her how you feel.....

G, so do you mean that the sands shifetd and you do n't think she's interested as much as you used to think - or not? your messages are sometimes difficult to read one way or the other. I understand that shje may not be interested, but I can't see how a letter would possibly help? My point , as I keep repeating it but no one seems to read - is that is if she STILL doesn't feel anything after months of contact, she won't start feeling it due to the letter! and if she does feel smth then she could have seen my texts as hinys. but it can't be BOTH. I hope that's clear now, and explains why your advice seemed contradictory. I think a letter would make sense if she was gay, so maybe you aer talking fron your perspecive (i.e. you didn't see your Mrs in that way until she told you but then it was an easy transition), but a non-gay woman would already feel something - or not and wouldn't feel after any letters. So when you and polly say she's completely oblivious to texts (like saying I'm not sweet to other people) then it means there is zero attraction.
Eats - you see that's interesting! So is you gf saying that she would become sexually/romantically interested if her friend told her about it? I don't really get that - if she felt nothing at all why would that change? the attraction is usually there even if it's confused/mild, and if it's not all these signals aer no good are they. But yes, it's kind of similar to what I'm doing (well, a bit less!) as I also like bringing her little (edible) gifts, which she always enjoys, though we haven't been tactile at all.I went through a calmer phase recently as I was just building things up quietly, but now I feel it's time to be direct, not right now but after a few more meeting on her return to make sure she hasn't cooled after the texts, they will be on weekly /two weekly basis, so really planning this for June. I'm tormented mainly because I miss her a lot, I literally want to see her evey day, when i stayed in her place for a bit earlier we seemed to become so harmoniuos just being there togehter, even though nothing tactile. I felt so far that i had to be gentle and delicate with her, and I do think it worked, don;t know to what extent, maybe just general fondness, so will have to find out soon.

as hints*

My gf said she had never thought about women in that way before - a slow developer. But yes wierd as it may sound, if she knew she would have been interested

Eats, I don't really think that I come across as daughterly, as I am more than 10yrs older than her children, and she'd have to be a young mum of 20 if she had a daughter of my age. She is more in charge as it's her place where we meet, and yes, she achived more in life than I have, but recently I feel that we are more on the same level (I mean age gap less noticeable) than before as she's more open and talks about her children to me more. As I say I've been in r-ships with much older men before and I was in charge completely with one, so I'm not intimidated by age gaps or see them as a problem, but she may see it as an issue. I dont mind her being slightly in charge, as she's much more organised than me, but obviously she has to respect me (or listen in any case), as I'm not the type to submit totally and did show her some feistiness at times.

I am not trying to say that you see her in a motherly way or she sees you in a daughterly way. But she might for example interpret your behaviour as wondering - does likea see me in a motherly way? bRather than - does likea fancy me?

Just trying to say I don't think you can assume she will interpret your behaviour as fancying you

Morning...Likea my lost message was along the lines that only YOU can tell from the looks you share with your WIQ, the comments you make to each other and the little nuances and vibes you might pick up in her company whether she is attracted to you or not. Your heart says yes, what does your gut say? As much as we can all try and help pick up on what's going on, it's difficult to really gauge the scenario properly as as you can see everyone will have a different perspective. A letter would give you a result either way and I'm sure you'd write sensitively and I'm sure she would not be offended by your interest - how could she be? It's not like you're telling her something negative. If anything she might be surprised, if she really hasn't cottoned onto anything. Personally I wouldn't write a letter unless I was absolutely sure the other person was interested but that's just me because I'm more hesitant in my approach to these things. Maybe it's wise to wait until she comes back and see if she is warmer and noticeably pleased to see you. I really feel for you and am here (along with all the rest of the folk on this thread I'm sure) wishing you good vibes and luck with your decision.

I might add that if two people really love each other, issues like age and kids etc shouldn't get in the way...

Loveis, well I;m also very hesintant in these things, as is well known by now (it's been half a year sonce I've met wiq). That's whjat I'm trying to do - be if not absolutelt sure, then at least reasonably so. But if you would wait till knowing for sure, how would you tell if it's absolutely the case - assuming they don't actually tell you, as then no letter wd be needed?
Well yes, I did say that I'll wait for her return and see if there is any colling after the texts (whjich she still might see as hints) , if she is even same as she was recently it's enough for me at this stage. If she has cooled then it's bad sign.
Eats, yes, it's strange to me that your gf would have been intertested if she knew - I mean with all the tactile approach she must have felt something already!? In the past if a woman approached me I'd not be interested, at the very most could try a kiss with those who I slightly fancied, but then I knew I liked them enough for a kiss, if I didn't fancy nothing would have changed if they told me. Withy men..I suppose more pursuadable as to me looks don't matter so much with men, but with women it has to be there as it's not usual for me and very few I would have comsidrerd kissing. But nothing else. Your gf probably was really gay and rea;lised it quite early in her life (i.e. her 20s?) so possibly there was some latent period but could ve started earlier if 'provoked' . Was she quite young? In my wiq's (and mine) case, I think we are both primarrily hetero but with some leaning (if the right woman comes along). It would be a shock to me though if she is already involved with a woman though! she does talk about one of her friends more than others. That would be a turnaround!

Loveis, didn't ansewr to your 'gut' question. I honestly don't know what it says, how do you tell? Heart - yes, I have a very strong feeling towards her, gut feeling as to her interest - sometimes I feel quite sure, at other times (when she's too nuetral), feel 'no'.

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