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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What to do? (EA? SA?) Legal advice needed as well please - warning, it is extremely long!

493 replies

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 10:57

This is going to be long and warbled, and might not make too much sense, maybe a bit bitty, but will try and put as much as much detail in as I can so I'm not adding to it after.

Firstly, I am an old MN'er, used to be a prolific poster, so it may be that the odd one of you may work out who I am, I would really appreciate it if anyone that suspects just keeps it to themselves please.

Secondly, think it goes against MN rules to have two accounts, though I hope for this one occasion we can over look this, as it is the only way I feel safe enough to get this out and hopefully gain some advice.

Thirdly, I may not be able to reply as ofter as I'd like, but will try my best to get on when I can.

OK, so, background: H and I have been married for 11 and a half years, three children, he is a good, loving dad, he works extremely hard (60hrs a month), he is ace at helping out around the house, he does most of the cooking, involved in bath times/bedtimes (when he is here), he does put the kids first in everything, and that reason, and that reason alone, is the only reason we are still together now.

I also work, of sorts, I have two failed/failing businesses under my belt, and am now working part time while youngest is at nursery and the older two are in school, plus evenings/weekends (17-20 hrs a week). I will be coming back to my 'job' in a bit.

His 13 years older than me, we met when I was 17, moved into a flat together, got engaged, got married, and (planned) DC within 3 months of us meeting. At the time, I thought he really must have loved me, now realise he pushed us both into it, nearly losing my family along the way (didn't speak to my lovely mum for over a year, she missed my eledest's pregnancy/birth/first xmas etc.), I lost all of my friends, he didn't have any as he had moved from a different part of the country to be with me, because he loved me soooo much Hmm

He told me about a week before we got married that he had two children, by different women, that were only 5 and 6 years younger than me (the children!). He said he was young and stupid and that he'd never seen either of them, though he did pay a very small amount of CSA (big of him, eh? WHY couldn't I see it at the time? Angry) I have since found out that actually he did live with the mother of the second child for a while after she was born, but that it didn't work out, so all the 'firsts' we were doing to gether with our first child, weren't actually his firsts at all Sad.

He'd had a long term relationship with someone who he said he never wanted to marry, or have children with, even though she wanted to desperately, he apparently just left her one day, and then met me within 4/5 months and declaired his undying love ("I didn't love her enough, she was nothing like you, didn't I prove that when I married you and not her?")

He had a difficult upbringing, don't want to go into too much detail as I don't feel that would be fair of me, but, very quickly, his mum left him, his older siblings and his dad when H was very young, and by the time he was a young teen, his siblings had all moved out, and his dad had practically moved in with a new lady, H was fending for himself from 14yo.

Over the course of our marriage, I have obviously matured from being a 17yo girl (in essence), and over the last 3-4 years I have come to realise that H is (subtly) EA. He was very controlling over a friendship I had with a girl, to the point where we ended up moving 30 miles away, which was very convieniant for him. And it was the turning point in my mind, I could see as clear as day what was going on, what he was doing to me, and I told him we were over, neither of us could afford to move out, so we carried on staying under the same roof, big mistake, within a month, you'd never know we were going to split. I have now 'lost touch' with my friend, and have no others.

Since then, I have done a fair amount of burying my head in the sand, trying to 'tune in' to when he was preasuring me in any way etc. couple of times I known for sure and talked to him about it, he always wormed his way out of it, and after a few days of uncomfortableness (for me) I'd get over it and it was placed under that very lumpy carpet, with all the rest of the shit.

Throughout the whole time we have been a family, he has always (and I believe will always) love the kids wholely, and properly, there are a couple of very small odd things that have become sticking points over the years (e.g. he insists that when we all eat dinner, we don't cut into a boiled potato (or whatever) and just eat the potato, we also cut a bit of the fish (or whatever!) and eat the fish and potato at the same time, I know that is really odd, but it is just one of the tiny things that sticks in my head) He also can never seem to manage the small things we ask of him, e.g. I have two sugars in my cup of tea, he never ever puts two in, why not? Hmm

About two-ish years ago, I got very drunk, with him at home, saturday night, overdid the wine, not a regular occurance. When I woke up in the morning I thought I could remember him having sex with me in the middle of the night, I asked him and he denied it, I questioned myself (was I that drunk/dreaming?) but (sorry for TMI) I found the 'evidence' as I went to the bathroom, if you follow my drift? So I knew he had, I thought maybe he was drunk as well and couldn't remember. Wrote it off as a strange night.

Since then I have woken up to feeling him ejaculating on me, or wiping me with his t-shirt after he has ejaculated on me, or woken up just as he has tried to actually put his willy in me, sometimes I have asked him what the bloody hell he thinks he's doing, sometimes I just pretend I'm still asleep. Any time I bring it up, I apparently should feel lucky that he still wants me after so long, and after the children, and if I was more willing he wouldn't have to resort to these measures. Now I am the first one to admit, our sex life has suffered over the years, we tend to go in spits and spats, sometimes it can be two or three weeks, sometimes 5 or 6 times a week, no pattern to it, sometimes it is when I am most angry/hurt that we have more sex, not sure if that is me trying to regain some control?

Money has always been a problem, we've never seemed to have enough(!) (though TBF we have never been as tight as it is right now, now we are struggling for food at times, whereas, whilst there might not have been much left over 12 months ago, there was some) I was a SAHM until 2 years ago, I have tried and failed two different businesses (trying to work around child care etc.) neither of which had big outlays, but both of which really needed money for advertising that we just didn't/haven't got.

H point blank refused for me to get a part-time evening job, either in a bar/shop/etc. Saying that we'd never see each other, I'd miss the kid's bedtimes etc. But we were desperate for money. That stupid bloody program came on the telly about the phone sex line girls, H jumped on it, said it was be perfect for me, I could do it while the kids were out, and maybe some evenings to get extra money in, and that it might open my mind a bit and give us a boost in our sex lives. So for the past 4 weeks I have spent many evenings, in and out of the garage conversion, to deal with bedtimes etc. while trying to take/dodge calls from people. He will say things like "Did you touch yourself for any of them?" "Have you made much on your wank line?" "Oooo, bet you're all turned on now, talking to those other men". He sits in the living room watching the phone to know exactly when I'm on the phone and when I'm not, watching porn, sending me pictures of his errect penis over a photo of me, sending videos of himself wanking over pictures of me on the laptop etc. This is all supposed to get me in the mood... Hmm and Sad and Angry.

So, after a shit week last week, and having made some extra money, I went and bought us some wine on Saturday, I drank nearly two bottles (again, I like wine, but not usually that much!) H actually poured the last glass of the second bottle but I said I'd had enough and was going to bed, we had sex and I went to sleep. Next thing I remember waking up, he was on top of me, having sex with me, my legs were closed underneath him, he was completely squashing me, I was whimpering, actually whimpering (makes my bloody boil when I think how I was), I was saying no, ow, no, but strangely, I wasn't screaming and shouting it, or trying to move away or anything, I was just a pathetic whimpering heap, why didn't I try to stop him? He ejeculated in me and gave me an extra tight squeeze, and rolled off me. I asked him why he just carried on when I was saying no, and he said he thought I was moaning in pleasure Hmm He asked if we were ok, I said yes, rolled over and went to sleep.

He spent Sunday morning walking on egg shells, being extra nice, I didn't say a word about it and just acted normal, thinking I needed time to work out what I was going to do, and it was best to keep my cards to my chest as it were.

Yesturday we got into bed, he asked, actually asked, out of the blue, "can I cum on you?" I said no in a lighttone and pointed to the bathroom, he seemed to shrug it off, gave me a kiss on my cheek, turned over and started to fall asleep, I turned over and led there with my eyes open, he obviously presumed I was asleep, he started wanking, I purposefully moved to see what he would do, he just carried straight on, I heard/felt him get his t-shirt to clean up (it is always his t-shirts) and then he was asleep, I came downstairs and cried. He has absolutely no respect for me, I think the porn thing is playing a part in this, he never (seemed to) used it before a couple of years ago, and slowly but steadily, he has been using it more, and in the same time frame I am becoming more and more of his object to do with as he pleases, when he pleases.

So, for anyone that has got this far (and bloody well done if you did!) firstly, am I being unfair on the kids to take them away from their dad when he is brilliant with them? They love him to bits, it will break their hearts and I don't want to risk being the cause of the that.

Secondly, we rent our house (both names on tenancy), he owns the car but I drive it 99% of the time, we have no savings etc. My mum lives 200 miles away and it is the only place I could go. The only way I can get away from him, with some money in my pocket to get us there and a means of getting us there is if when he next get's paid (last working day of each month) to move some money from our joint account to my own, (this will leave bills here unpaid), take the car, pack up everything I can get in it, and take the kids and I to my mums. He will know exactly where I am, I'm not scared of him, but the fact I have cut all ties (except the kids obv.), will show him that we are over. He will hate it, he will hate me for doing it, but he will calm down fairly quickly, and realise he's pushed it too far, for the sake of seeing the kids.

Would I be facing any legal repercussions in taking the car/money? I just dont know how else to do it.

Right, this is humongous, I am sure I still haven't given all the details, but I really just wanted to get as much as I could down. Thanks to anyone who has made it to the end, and if anyone has any advice, I am all eyes ears.

OP posts:
AdelaideAussie · 25/04/2012 11:15

Why don't you have him removed from the house? I'm sure you know how this can be done. Oh keep all the car keys ( he is the registered keeper, not the registered owner btw)

Then you can claim tax credits and Housing benefit and Council tax benefit to cover your bills.

You dont have to move but I think he does.

MrsMcEnroe · 25/04/2012 11:23

Well, he is sexually abusing you. Would you feel able to call the police? And see a lawyer for a free half-hour consultation to get an injunction so that he won't be able to come in the house?

And he is not a "good dad." A good dad does not sexually assualt the mother of his children. What sort of role model do you think that makes him?

It sounds horrendous for you OP but I would say - try to get him to leave.

If you can't - call WomensAid, they will help you leave.

You need this man out of your lives.

Be strong. If you act now he might never be able to get back in the house again .... could you call your mum and ask her if she could travel to meet you for support? I know it's a long journey but you need someone in your corner here.

foolonthehill · 25/04/2012 11:28

So sorry for you OP.

Porn is addictive and "normalises" stuff that is not normal and imo objectifies women and removes the sex act from the relationship...which is what he has done. Probably he was particularly vulnerable to this as he is already EA...and therefore probably already objectifying you subtly (ie he only really sees you in relationship to himself, not a s a separate person) . This would also explain the "work" that he is so keen for you to do (WTF!!!!!)

Legally you can ask him to leave, you can separate and still live in the same house (wouldn't recommend this personally) or you can leave him. The money/house/car are legal details and can be sorted out by informal agreement or solicitors or via mediation. There is no problem with you taking what you need to survive.

Of course going to your mums may not be your final solution, living separately and nearer to one another would enable you to co-parent in the longer term if he is such a truly a brilliant Dad then he will still be a brilliant Dad later

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 11:34

What is the difference in the owner/keeper of the car?

TBH, I don't want to make him leave, I have no friends, family, support up here, if I have any chance of making this time a permanant separation, then I need to be in my home town, with my family around me.

I see exactly where you are coming from Mrs McEnroe, with the role model thing, but the children do not see any of this at all, which is why I am questioning if it really is the best thing for them. We have moved 3 times in the last two years, the two youngest have SN which plays a big part in any changes, we would usually have to spend a week working them up to a new t-shirt, I am teetering on the edge of ripping them away from school/nursery, their friends, their beloved dad, with no warning or even really an explanation, I don't want to have to tell them that I can't stand breathing the air as him. Am I being selfish? Is this one of those compromises a mother puts up with?

OP posts:
StickorFold · 25/04/2012 11:40

I know he will follow us down to my mums, he will more than likely end up moving down there, I can handle seeing him after, away from here, so I'm not alone, at least in my mind.

Am not planning on staying at mum's for any longer than needs be, I have already looked into what benefits I can claim shorterm and housing etc. I am fairly certain it won't all go smoothly, but am also fairly certain that some how, one way or another I can get our lives sorted down there.

And, I have no problem with him seeing the kids as often as we agree to once things have calmed down. I don't want to take them away from him, it is only me that needs to get away from him.

OP posts:
sugarice · 25/04/2012 11:55

I'm sorry you're having such a torrid time but get away from him, his treatment of you is appalling, encouraging phone sex Shock.Go to your Mum's, at least for a short while for support if he won't leave the house.

coppertop · 25/04/2012 11:58

A good dad does not treat his children's mother the way this man treats you.

" I was saying no, ow, no, but strangely, I wasn't screaming and shouting it, or trying to move away or anything, I was just a pathetic whimpering heap, why didn't I try to stop him?"

You are asking the wrong question here. The default isn't "People can have sex with/on me unless I shout no very loudly and fight them off". It's "No-one gets to have sex on/with me unless I make it damn clear that they have my permission first." You should be questioning your dh's behaviour and not your own.

He's already very controlling. He even gets to dictate how you are permitted to put food on your forks, and how much sugar you can have in your tea. I suspect your children will also be on the receiving end of more of this kind of behaviour as they get older, if they aren't already.

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 12:20

The stupid thing is, I am now using the phone sex thing as an excuse to stay out in the garage all night, so I don't have to sit next to him all evening.

Even that though, there is a man who rings me, now please believe me when I say this, I know he is ringing a sex line, and so he is put in the same box as all of the rest of the knobber's, but he genuinely does not ring for phone sex. He is married (he says), he works in technology (he says), he rang the first time as he is looking into setting up a legit(?) dating website, with a possibility of chat line on the side, so he rang to try and get some info about the inner workings as it were. We've hit it off (in a completely platonic kind of way - I am under no illusions with him, and I wouldn't go near him with a barge pole, even if he did offer!) but the point is, he is one of the few that have rang just for a chat, just for company, not for sex. H has demanded the next time this man rings that I am to tell him not to ring me again as he I feel we're 'getting in too deep' FFS, we talk about business (generally) and what we're having for dinner... Also, when he does ring we can be on for the best part of an hour, that means £££'s which is what I am supposed to be doing it for?!

I actually don't mind doing the sex line thing, it is sleazy, and I am not proud of it, but it means I actually get to talk to other adults (in a warped way!) and of course the money is really needed. And, again, it get's me out of being anywhere near H.

OP posts:
foolonthehill · 25/04/2012 12:26

So there is no reason to stay...for you, for your children and for their future you can go.

Will you?

Do you need more support, information??

coppertop · 25/04/2012 12:33

So essentially your dh doesn't care about the money. He isn't relieved when you get lots of money for having a non-sex-related conversation. He's only interested in the kick he gets from you having to talk on a sex-line.

Go to your mum's asap and deal with the car/money issues once you're in a safe place and away from this man's control.

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 12:45

I suppose what I am looking for is someone to say that it is OK to break my family up, to cause all of the grief and the trouble that it will bring, to leave H here alone with little money, no car and a landlord that will be after him for rent (well I know I'll be facing that as well), and then of course all of the other bills, council tax, we're both on most of the bills.

Plus of course, what it will do to my mum, she will be 100% behind me, and would fight tooth and nail for me, but I will be effectively dumping all this trouble on her doorstep.

There are other little things, the car needs taxing at the end of this month, the car insurance will have to be paid until I can get it changed, can I change it into my name if I am not the keeper?

I think I can get out with around about £1700, will this be enough to keep us going until any benefits do start? I'll need to buy new school uniforms for the kids, we won't have room to take many clothes and things so will need to buy new, will take a few of the kids fav. toys but they are used to a huge play room and garden with just about every toy you can imagine. Why the hell am I worried about their toys? Hmm My head is screwed I think.

Even schools, am I legally allowed to just ring and say they won't be going back in? And then how soon do they have to be registered in another? And just incase, even though I don't think H is any threat to them, am I allowed to ask the new schools not to let him near them?

My eldest will be so cross at me for not letting him say goodbye to his friends, and he will spend the best part of 'leaving day' in a state of turmoil, he'll be excited to be going to mum's, but he'll know something is wrong, and I won't be able to tell him till the younger ones are out of the way (he is a very mature 10yo, the other two are 3 and 5yo, they will need a different type of explaining to I think)

Wish someone would just say I can leave. Why, at the age of 28 years old, do I feel I need permission to get out of a marriage when he is doing these things to me? I know it's not right, but I can't help feeling guilty. I am going to rip his heart out, and the kid's to boot. All because I didn't make him get off me. It seems ridiculous, laughable, almost.

OP posts:
AllTheSevens · 25/04/2012 13:01

You can leave, you really can.

The only permission you need is from yourself.

It may be daunting to think of starting a new life, it will be tough at times, but you will feel safe in your own home, in you own bed, which is how it should be.

I don't even have the words for the disgusting pig that is your H, he is abusing you in the most vile way.

You deserve so much more out of life and so do your DC. They may not see the abuse but they will know that something not right is going on.

foolonthehill · 25/04/2012 13:07

You will not be breaking your family up....
HE HAS ALREADY BROKEN IT!

this is just the consequence of that breakage.
^I am going to rip his heart out^ no, he sees you as an extension of him. He will, however be feeling very sorry for himself, this is different to real grief which leads to a change of heart....and if he wants to go there and change he could (but, of course he has been here before...he will probably just move on)

You can leave, and you need to.
Your children need to know that a real proper relationship between adults does not look like this (and be sure they see more than we ever realise).

coppertop · 25/04/2012 13:12

It's more than ok to go!

This isn't some poor misunderstood man who doesn't know any better. This is a man with a long history of using lies and manipulation to get his own way. It's a man who thinks nothing of raping his wife. It's a man who treats his wife as an object with no thoughts or feelings of her own. It's certainly not a man I'd want near any woman or child.

When you register with a new school, you would usually fill in a form to say who has permission to collect your children. Short-term you can just leave your H's name off the list. In the meantime you will have enough thinking space to be able to make an appointment with a solicitor.

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 13:12

It doesn't feel daunting, yes, all of the inbetween bits feel a bit daunting, but I can see the woods for the trees, I can see that MY life will be 100 times better without him in it, but not sure I can say the same for the DC's, that is my sticking point.

And up to a point, even for him. He is going to come home from work one day and find his family gone, does anyone deserve that? I am 80% sure he doesn't actually know what he is doing is wrong, I think he felt it for the first time on Saturday night, which is why he was on edge on Sunday, but after last night's performance, it seems he didn't feel too badly for too long.
Or maybe he didn't feel in the wrong, maybe he was just bothered he'd been caught? I'm guessing he thinks I was too drunk to remember, can't think of any other reason he wouldn't have said something by now, he thinks I don't know. And by me carrying on as normal, it is going to come as even more of a shock.

It just seems so cruel, for everyone, and all to make MY life better, not anyone else's. I'm not sure I can do it to them. But, I can't carry on like this, I've barely slept since Saturday, how can I when I don't know if he's going to do it again?

OP posts:
coppertop · 25/04/2012 13:13

(btw I have no idea what your other MN name is/was, just in case you thought I did.)

Chubfuddler · 25/04/2012 13:15

Fucking hell. I thought a thread about marital rape yesterday was the worst thing I had ever read. Now it isn't. This is.

Your husband is basically prostituting you, rapes you when you are asleep and is so controlling of his family he even dictates how you all out your food on your forks. Believe me he is not a good dad (and this is the important bit) even if he was pa Walton to the kids it wouldn't make up for how he treats you.

Leave him. Please.

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 13:17

Sorry, lots of x posts.

Thanks for the school info. That is good to know.

I will be taking all passports/birth certificates, because the only retaliation that would cross his mind is to take them away from me, if only just for a day or two, just to scare me. It is the type of game he would play.

OP posts:
foolonthehill · 25/04/2012 13:18

It's not just for you though.

His controlling behaviour is obvious to DCs and once you are away you will realise just how much your DCs are being affected by him.

His abuse is not all invisible, just routine...

mistlethrush · 25/04/2012 13:31

What kind of state are you going to be as a mother in 5 years time? What about 10 years?

You say yourself that you don't want to stop the children seeing him, and he'll probably follow you anyway soon. So, the children won't be without their father for long, and you'll hopefully be able to work something out so that you both get to spend quality time with them - but without the other. Your son might be cross - but he will make new friends. Uniforms - many schools will have 2nd hand uniform shops which someone might be willing to open up specially in such circumstances.

Don't worry about H's feelings. He clearly doesn't care about yours as long as he's pushed them down far enough that they're not a problem for him.

Does your mother know you're thinking of this?

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 13:45

I don't know, I don't know if it is routine. It absolutely used to be, but when I told him it was over and in the gruelling weeks following when we had to disect everything, I told him a long list of his 'faults' and TBF a lot of that has changed.

But now I am questioning everything, I don't know if I am seeing things that aren't there. We had had sex on Saturday night downstairs, maybe he carried on when we went to bed and I fell alseep through drunkedness, maybe he did think I 'was moaning in pleasure', maybe I should be more willing so he doesn't feel the need to wank on me? It's hardly hard work is it to lay there and just let him do it on me?

I am swinging from being certain we are leaving to not being sure we should. Unlike last time, I am not worried about the practical side of it, even though I have no idea how to get to my mums, have never driven for more than 45 mins and only had a very small amount of experience on the motorway. I am now not worried about taking the car/money.

Though I have no idea what to take with us, do I concentrate on clothes and keepsakes, or paperwork and small kitchen appliances to save me buying new?!

I have grown up with this man, this man that to an extent has looked after me, provided for me, moved the big fat hairy spiders away for me, cooked for me (I can just about rustle up some freezer to oven crap, have no idea how to cook food!), he was there while I gave birth, he was the one rubbing my back and rushing around in the middle of the night getting me drinks and snacks when DS2 wouldn't stop feeding and I was feeling ill with exhaustion and he was the one that has been there for us when the little ones were at their worst re. their SN's, he is the one who works 12+ hours a day and most weekends to give us a roof over our heads.

He is the one who takes the car to the garage, takes the bins out, mows the lawn, puts light fittings up and curtain poles, sings stupid made up songs to kids about bums and farts that make them squeal with laughter.

I can't do this.

OP posts:
tallwivglasses · 25/04/2012 13:46

Okay, just suppose you stayed, say another 5 years. Your eldest will be 15. Your H's behaviour will have escalated. You will have been ground down and your mental health will suffer, possibly your physical health due to the stress. H will not be tolerant I think of a willful teenager. You'll be living most of your life in the garage.

You are doing your children a huge service by leaving this situation.

tallwivglasses · 25/04/2012 13:49

You owe this rapist nothing. The potato thing would have done it for me. Tonight, cut your fucking potato, I dare you. See what this wonderful man does then Angry

coppertop · 25/04/2012 13:51

" I am 80% sure he doesn't actually know what he is doing is wrong,"

If this were true then he wouldn't feel any need to lie about raping you the previous time when you were drunk. He wouldn't have felt any need to lie about wanking on you when you were asleep. He would have been absolutely devastated when he discovered that you had been saying no to him when he was on top of you.

This man knows full well that what he is doing is wrong.

3littlefrogs · 25/04/2012 13:54

If you plan to leave (and it sounds like the best option to me), please make sure you get your name taken off the tenancy agreement. You don't want to end up responsible for paying rent on a property you no longer live in.

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