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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What to do? (EA? SA?) Legal advice needed as well please - warning, it is extremely long!

493 replies

StickorFold · 25/04/2012 10:57

This is going to be long and warbled, and might not make too much sense, maybe a bit bitty, but will try and put as much as much detail in as I can so I'm not adding to it after.

Firstly, I am an old MN'er, used to be a prolific poster, so it may be that the odd one of you may work out who I am, I would really appreciate it if anyone that suspects just keeps it to themselves please.

Secondly, think it goes against MN rules to have two accounts, though I hope for this one occasion we can over look this, as it is the only way I feel safe enough to get this out and hopefully gain some advice.

Thirdly, I may not be able to reply as ofter as I'd like, but will try my best to get on when I can.

OK, so, background: H and I have been married for 11 and a half years, three children, he is a good, loving dad, he works extremely hard (60hrs a month), he is ace at helping out around the house, he does most of the cooking, involved in bath times/bedtimes (when he is here), he does put the kids first in everything, and that reason, and that reason alone, is the only reason we are still together now.

I also work, of sorts, I have two failed/failing businesses under my belt, and am now working part time while youngest is at nursery and the older two are in school, plus evenings/weekends (17-20 hrs a week). I will be coming back to my 'job' in a bit.

His 13 years older than me, we met when I was 17, moved into a flat together, got engaged, got married, and (planned) DC within 3 months of us meeting. At the time, I thought he really must have loved me, now realise he pushed us both into it, nearly losing my family along the way (didn't speak to my lovely mum for over a year, she missed my eledest's pregnancy/birth/first xmas etc.), I lost all of my friends, he didn't have any as he had moved from a different part of the country to be with me, because he loved me soooo much Hmm

He told me about a week before we got married that he had two children, by different women, that were only 5 and 6 years younger than me (the children!). He said he was young and stupid and that he'd never seen either of them, though he did pay a very small amount of CSA (big of him, eh? WHY couldn't I see it at the time? Angry) I have since found out that actually he did live with the mother of the second child for a while after she was born, but that it didn't work out, so all the 'firsts' we were doing to gether with our first child, weren't actually his firsts at all Sad.

He'd had a long term relationship with someone who he said he never wanted to marry, or have children with, even though she wanted to desperately, he apparently just left her one day, and then met me within 4/5 months and declaired his undying love ("I didn't love her enough, she was nothing like you, didn't I prove that when I married you and not her?")

He had a difficult upbringing, don't want to go into too much detail as I don't feel that would be fair of me, but, very quickly, his mum left him, his older siblings and his dad when H was very young, and by the time he was a young teen, his siblings had all moved out, and his dad had practically moved in with a new lady, H was fending for himself from 14yo.

Over the course of our marriage, I have obviously matured from being a 17yo girl (in essence), and over the last 3-4 years I have come to realise that H is (subtly) EA. He was very controlling over a friendship I had with a girl, to the point where we ended up moving 30 miles away, which was very convieniant for him. And it was the turning point in my mind, I could see as clear as day what was going on, what he was doing to me, and I told him we were over, neither of us could afford to move out, so we carried on staying under the same roof, big mistake, within a month, you'd never know we were going to split. I have now 'lost touch' with my friend, and have no others.

Since then, I have done a fair amount of burying my head in the sand, trying to 'tune in' to when he was preasuring me in any way etc. couple of times I known for sure and talked to him about it, he always wormed his way out of it, and after a few days of uncomfortableness (for me) I'd get over it and it was placed under that very lumpy carpet, with all the rest of the shit.

Throughout the whole time we have been a family, he has always (and I believe will always) love the kids wholely, and properly, there are a couple of very small odd things that have become sticking points over the years (e.g. he insists that when we all eat dinner, we don't cut into a boiled potato (or whatever) and just eat the potato, we also cut a bit of the fish (or whatever!) and eat the fish and potato at the same time, I know that is really odd, but it is just one of the tiny things that sticks in my head) He also can never seem to manage the small things we ask of him, e.g. I have two sugars in my cup of tea, he never ever puts two in, why not? Hmm

About two-ish years ago, I got very drunk, with him at home, saturday night, overdid the wine, not a regular occurance. When I woke up in the morning I thought I could remember him having sex with me in the middle of the night, I asked him and he denied it, I questioned myself (was I that drunk/dreaming?) but (sorry for TMI) I found the 'evidence' as I went to the bathroom, if you follow my drift? So I knew he had, I thought maybe he was drunk as well and couldn't remember. Wrote it off as a strange night.

Since then I have woken up to feeling him ejaculating on me, or wiping me with his t-shirt after he has ejaculated on me, or woken up just as he has tried to actually put his willy in me, sometimes I have asked him what the bloody hell he thinks he's doing, sometimes I just pretend I'm still asleep. Any time I bring it up, I apparently should feel lucky that he still wants me after so long, and after the children, and if I was more willing he wouldn't have to resort to these measures. Now I am the first one to admit, our sex life has suffered over the years, we tend to go in spits and spats, sometimes it can be two or three weeks, sometimes 5 or 6 times a week, no pattern to it, sometimes it is when I am most angry/hurt that we have more sex, not sure if that is me trying to regain some control?

Money has always been a problem, we've never seemed to have enough(!) (though TBF we have never been as tight as it is right now, now we are struggling for food at times, whereas, whilst there might not have been much left over 12 months ago, there was some) I was a SAHM until 2 years ago, I have tried and failed two different businesses (trying to work around child care etc.) neither of which had big outlays, but both of which really needed money for advertising that we just didn't/haven't got.

H point blank refused for me to get a part-time evening job, either in a bar/shop/etc. Saying that we'd never see each other, I'd miss the kid's bedtimes etc. But we were desperate for money. That stupid bloody program came on the telly about the phone sex line girls, H jumped on it, said it was be perfect for me, I could do it while the kids were out, and maybe some evenings to get extra money in, and that it might open my mind a bit and give us a boost in our sex lives. So for the past 4 weeks I have spent many evenings, in and out of the garage conversion, to deal with bedtimes etc. while trying to take/dodge calls from people. He will say things like "Did you touch yourself for any of them?" "Have you made much on your wank line?" "Oooo, bet you're all turned on now, talking to those other men". He sits in the living room watching the phone to know exactly when I'm on the phone and when I'm not, watching porn, sending me pictures of his errect penis over a photo of me, sending videos of himself wanking over pictures of me on the laptop etc. This is all supposed to get me in the mood... Hmm and Sad and Angry.

So, after a shit week last week, and having made some extra money, I went and bought us some wine on Saturday, I drank nearly two bottles (again, I like wine, but not usually that much!) H actually poured the last glass of the second bottle but I said I'd had enough and was going to bed, we had sex and I went to sleep. Next thing I remember waking up, he was on top of me, having sex with me, my legs were closed underneath him, he was completely squashing me, I was whimpering, actually whimpering (makes my bloody boil when I think how I was), I was saying no, ow, no, but strangely, I wasn't screaming and shouting it, or trying to move away or anything, I was just a pathetic whimpering heap, why didn't I try to stop him? He ejeculated in me and gave me an extra tight squeeze, and rolled off me. I asked him why he just carried on when I was saying no, and he said he thought I was moaning in pleasure Hmm He asked if we were ok, I said yes, rolled over and went to sleep.

He spent Sunday morning walking on egg shells, being extra nice, I didn't say a word about it and just acted normal, thinking I needed time to work out what I was going to do, and it was best to keep my cards to my chest as it were.

Yesturday we got into bed, he asked, actually asked, out of the blue, "can I cum on you?" I said no in a lighttone and pointed to the bathroom, he seemed to shrug it off, gave me a kiss on my cheek, turned over and started to fall asleep, I turned over and led there with my eyes open, he obviously presumed I was asleep, he started wanking, I purposefully moved to see what he would do, he just carried straight on, I heard/felt him get his t-shirt to clean up (it is always his t-shirts) and then he was asleep, I came downstairs and cried. He has absolutely no respect for me, I think the porn thing is playing a part in this, he never (seemed to) used it before a couple of years ago, and slowly but steadily, he has been using it more, and in the same time frame I am becoming more and more of his object to do with as he pleases, when he pleases.

So, for anyone that has got this far (and bloody well done if you did!) firstly, am I being unfair on the kids to take them away from their dad when he is brilliant with them? They love him to bits, it will break their hearts and I don't want to risk being the cause of the that.

Secondly, we rent our house (both names on tenancy), he owns the car but I drive it 99% of the time, we have no savings etc. My mum lives 200 miles away and it is the only place I could go. The only way I can get away from him, with some money in my pocket to get us there and a means of getting us there is if when he next get's paid (last working day of each month) to move some money from our joint account to my own, (this will leave bills here unpaid), take the car, pack up everything I can get in it, and take the kids and I to my mums. He will know exactly where I am, I'm not scared of him, but the fact I have cut all ties (except the kids obv.), will show him that we are over. He will hate it, he will hate me for doing it, but he will calm down fairly quickly, and realise he's pushed it too far, for the sake of seeing the kids.

Would I be facing any legal repercussions in taking the car/money? I just dont know how else to do it.

Right, this is humongous, I am sure I still haven't given all the details, but I really just wanted to get as much as I could down. Thanks to anyone who has made it to the end, and if anyone has any advice, I am all eyes ears.

OP posts:
Changethatbulb · 26/04/2012 11:58

Chub - thank you for that information on prohibited steps orders. I'd never heard of that before. (Am Googling and bookmarking that info now).

StickorFold - from what you have posted previously, no, do not trust him. Do not ask for his help. I made that mistake and it took me another 2 years to severe the bond completely. He will say he is sorry, he will make promises.

Don't believe him. Keep it as separate and civil as you can. Do not let him suck you back into his life. And that is exactly what it has been - his life, not yours.

nickelhasababy · 26/04/2012 12:03

Are you going anywhere this week/end on your own/with the kids (without him)? that you can take a few things to leave there and pick up when you go?

then you don't have to worry about him finding them.

eg: school or nursery, that's open on tuesday and you can collect stuff?
you can take the most important stuff, so that it can be fetched without him finding it and withholding it.

StickorFold · 26/04/2012 12:39

Good to know about the tax - thanks :)

One of the first things I will do once I get to mum's is make an appt. with a solicitor, find out exactly where I stand etc.

Nickel, no not going anywhere without him, but even if I had somewhere to leave it, the kids will suspect if we go to school/nursery first. DS1 will already be a bit cross with me for not being able to go to school, he'll be more pleased we're going to mum's though, I just don't want to do anything more to them. I will tell them (warn them maybe?) when we get there, not the details obviously, but I am going to have to wait and see what H does before I start filling their heads with 'bad daddy' ideas.

DS1 isn't going to be put off with 'mummy and daddy love you very much but not each other' type stuff. He'll know something else has happened, I don't know what to tell him, he can't know the truth, but I don't want to fabricate everything to him, that's not fair, he is too 'old' for that. Poor boy, well all of them really. I have no idea what it is going to do to DS2, he is the closest one of the lot to H, always has been. And he won't understand even the 'mild' version. DS3, he'll be fine, think he is (luckily) still too young to care much either way as long as he has food in his belly and a cuddle from anyone someone!

What the hell am I doing to them? What gives me the right to do this to them? It's absolutely nothing to do with them and yet they are the ones that are going to suffer, I should be helping to stop that suffering, not causing it.

OP posts:
Chubfuddler · 26/04/2012 12:47

Your children will suffer if you stay with him. Believe me.

mistlethrush · 26/04/2012 12:52

SoF - do you want them to grow up thinking that this is how a 'healthy' relationship works? Father dictating how even food is eaten?

StickorFold · 26/04/2012 13:01

Well of course I don't, but, what if taking them away damages them just as much, and then they have a shit life without their dad as well.

I don't bloody know, every thing, every part of me want's to take me away from him. But, every part of me doesn't want to take their dad away from them. Does that make sense? How do I decide?

I am so sure one minute that to go is absolutely the right thing, and then something climbs back in my head and is telling me to not do it to them. I can put up with him, for them.

OP posts:
Chubfuddler · 26/04/2012 13:03

How would you feel if you found out tomorrow that your mother had tolerated being raped and ejaculated over by your father but she stayed for your sake? Pretty appalled I reckon. Children are resilient. They need live and consistency. They don't need a bully boy manchild who abuses their mother dictating how they load their food on their forks.

StickorFold · 26/04/2012 13:10

But that's it, they don't know he does that, they hopefully never will. I am fairly certain my mum put up with a lot from my dad, some possibly even worse than I'm dealing with.

I am going, I know I am, my sister has already promised a kick up the arse if I don't(!), I have to go, I just wish and hope that they can forgive me, and that I will be strong enough to get them through it.

OP posts:
mistlethrush · 26/04/2012 13:10

SoF - you said yourself that he'll probably end up moving up nearby anyway. He'll be able to see the children. He'll still be able to be dad and if he continues to do a good job at it they'll continue to want to see him when he has his contact time. That doesn't mean that you should stay.

If you stay they will be living with one parent who is fouly abusing their other parent. They'll be living with a parent who dares not be herself, who is second guessing all the time to keep things on an even keel. They'll grow up thinking that this is 'normal'.

Look at the opportunity that you have - you can show them that you are a strong person in your own right and that it is not acceptable for one person to treat another as your H is treating you. Hopefully you'll get to a place where you are free, and happy, but they still are able to see their father, as a completely different situation. Living most of the time with a parent freed of all the current concerns who can once again become herself will be of great benefit to them.

Wilding · 26/04/2012 13:16

God, StickorFold - don't really have anything to add but I just wanted to say how amazingly brave I think you are. You are doing the right thing and I am so impressed with your courage. I'll be thinking of you tomorrow.

Changethatbulb · 26/04/2012 13:29

If you stay with him, they will suffer more because you will suffer and eventually something will break. They may not know the details of why you have seperated, they don't need to know.

You are not taking their Dad away. Don't inflict such guilt on yourself.

My children love their father. They did not know about the abuse that caused the divorce. I said Mummy and Daddy didn't get along and that happens sometimes. Yes, 4 years post-divorce I do have the occasional tucky-up-time which results in tears and "I miss Daddy". But it's bearable. I did the right thing. It sounds like you are doing the right thing too.

Everything you are saying makes sense. It's new, raw, scary and unpredictable. I've been there. I wish I could be of more help.

You are not 'taking their Dad away'. You are choosing to leave an abusive relationship.

Chubfuddler · 26/04/2012 13:33

Listen op I think you are an incredible person, I really do. When you feel you are wavering just read your op again. Your words, your description of him. And I bet you were minimising even when you wrote it.

I'm moving house this weekend and won't have broadband so I'm not going to be around on mn much for the next few days until my new phone line and bb are set up. But I will be thinking of you, a lot. Please be safe.

StickorFold · 26/04/2012 13:47

I know you are all right, I just feel so incredibly guilty for them.

Another question. If I was to tell school on Monday that I would be sending them in on Tuesday, but picking them up, and they won't be back, explain that i'm leaving etc. will they tell H? Do they have a duty to, because in effect I am kidnapping them, legally, I think?

OP posts:
BadLieutenent · 26/04/2012 13:48

I have namechanged for this (I wish I didn't have to, but I'm a reg, and very identifiable, and this isn't something I've ever talked about on MN). Your situation sounds like it has a lot of parallels to my own a few years ago. The sexual stuff etc. I won't go into it, because it's not about me, but trust me, I know how insidious it all is.

Anyway, I did leave (yes, child with SN too, who he sees plenty of and is great with), and it was hard: he was extremely awkward and unpleasant. But as soon as I'd left, I was so relieved, and I was able to deal with it no problem. I was SO FUCKING HAPPY to be away from him.

You can do this, and you won't regret it.

nickelhasababy · 26/04/2012 13:49

No, you are telling the school what they need to know.

Just ask them to forward their records to the new school once they're registered.

and no, you're not kidnapping them.

Chubfuddler · 26/04/2012 13:50

I wouldn't tell the school until you are gone. Email the head explaining you gave left your husband due to domestic abuse and therefore you know he/she will understand why you couldn't give them proper warning. You won't be the first.

OxfordBags · 26/04/2012 13:51

Stickorfold - examine what you just said: " I am fairly certain my mum put up with a lot from my dad, some possibly even worse than I'm dealing with."

Think about that deeply. It is zero coincidence that you had that childhood and you are having this relationship now. Having that sort of childhood virtually trained you to be having this relationship. You know it, surely you can see it. Everyone on this thread will have been presuming your father was like that to your mother, it's a surprise to no-one here, I bet.

And if you grew up with a parental dynamic like that and am now in this awful, abusive relationship, what does it say about what sort of relationships your DC will end up in? If you ended up in a similar place, what will magically happen to prevent them following the same pattern and perpetuating the cycle of abuse? There's only one thing that can stop this: leaving him.

You are ALLOWED to leave him, you know. Just because other women and possibly your own mother have it or had it worse, does not mean you have to stay until abuse reaches some invisible marker deemed severe enough for it to be permissable to leave someone over. And it's not insulting to your mother for you to decide that you will not be abused and let you children grow up in such an awful environment, just because she chose to stay and let you tolerate it. Indeed, she would probably be so happy and proud you did what she wouldn't.

Ask yourself this: you don't really know what your father did to your mother, but you are certain it was awful, possibly more awful than what you put up with. So you didn't see out-and-out, blatant abuse and yet you knew it was going on. If this is true for you, how come it will be magically different for your own children? If you could perceive hidden abuse, how come they won't? If they don't already, they will very soon. And another thing - you can only imagine the horrors your mum was put through. Your children don't deserve to be adults thinking that about you.

The only way to ruin your children's life is to stay. If it's not already being ruined. He is a rapist, pimp, pervert, liar, abuser, control freak. That is the real him; the father side of him is a just a mask,a role he can play now and then. But the older they get, they less he will be able to keep up the facade. He's stopped being able to hide the fact that he's a rapist from you, hasn't he? Far from blaming you, they will eventually be eternally grateful. Go. Go as soon as possible. Go today. Save yourself and make sure your children are not ruined by growing up in the same house as this monster. If you are brave enough to cope with this nightmare, you are totally brave enough to make this move.

StickorFold · 26/04/2012 13:59

So the school absolutely would not tell H?

I can't decide if it would be a better idea to get them to school, then when he rings he won't hear them, I can get the car packed up and go and pick them up mid-morning.

Problem is, then they can't get to decide what they take, I can guess the obvious, but you never know if someone holds something completely obscure as 'treasure', and I don't know if H will play fair or not after, he might not let them have their things to get back at me.

OP posts:
StickorFold · 26/04/2012 14:07

Sorry x post.

No, I don't know for sure what my mum 'put up' with, I don't know if it worse or not, I don't remember my dad being 'at home' at all, I don't know (first hand) their relationship dynamics, I am reading between the lines of many stories over the years, and concluding that I suspect there was more going on than we'll ever know about, there very possibly wasn't, it is just a 'feeling'.

I am going, I just really need to work out exactly what will happen on Tuesday.

I need to be contable by him for as long as possible, to stop him just coming home. He will expect to be able to ring me just after 9 to check I'm here the kids were OK, and he will expect me to ring him before I go to pick DS3 up from nursery at 12, to tell him how the phone lines went etc. I want to be gone before 12, so can't ring him then, then leave. And when I do speak to him, he'll be able to hear the kids. I don't know how to work it so he hopefully won't suspect anything until he get's home in the evening, if he get's to us/me before we get to mums it will all be over.

OP posts:
mumofkyle · 26/04/2012 14:08

How brave are you? I'm SoF's sister and am so relieved she's linked me to this thread. There's so much advice and support which she's going to need over the coming weeks.

I feel hopeless to practically help you as I'm the other end of the country but will help any possible way I can.

We've been discussing via text the best way to leave on Tuesday, I suggested picking the boys up from school earlier to allow for a 'head start' but as she says; he will come home as soon as there is no answer on the phone. Has anyone got any suggestions?

He has always been possessive about her and we did talk about it the last time it came to a head but really thought he'd learnt his lesson so to say and since then she has grown as a person and a woman; that, and the vile abuse lately, has given her the strength to get out now.

I and my DH will both have our legs out to give her a kick if the doubts set in!

Chubfuddler · 26/04/2012 14:09

How will it all be over? Won't you be on the road anyway - he won't know where you are?

StickorFold · 26/04/2012 14:19

:) Very obvious name! Welcome aboard! x

When he finds out we've gone, if he ignores the letter (which I am sure he will), the first thing he will do is jump in the van and follow us down (it's the only way without driving literally around the country), he will easily catch us (I stick to speed limit, he doesn't care, I will have car full of kids needing wee breaks, drink breaks, me needing a break - have never done such a drive on my own) I really need to be at mums before he even knows, if he catches us face to face, we'll be home before the end of the day, I know it.

OP posts:
mumofkyle · 26/04/2012 14:24

Why will you be home? You have now made the very brave decision to go, he won't be able to change your mind. You have our stubborn streak in you. More to the point you have the boys future in your hands. You are too good a mum to let that happen.

Logically, if he does catch up with you do you think he would do anything with the boys in the car?

OxfordBags · 26/04/2012 14:28

You will only be home by the end of the day if YOU decide that will happen, if YOU allow it. He doesn't hold the power, he really doesn't. You have a wonderful sister and her DH to help and even without help YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO WHAT HE WANTS.

You are making little panicky excuses up. What is worse for a child - temporarily being without a favourite toy or growing up with a father who rapes and abuses their mother and who controls them terribly?!

You know you're doing the only thing, the right thing, and you are being so brave. Don't jeopardise your chance for a better life for you and your dc over triva. Stay strong!

ExitPursuedByABear · 26/04/2012 14:35

SoF Reading your thread has made me cry. Please, please, please get away from this man.

Nothing to add to the advice you have already been given, except to say that I truly hope you go through with your plan.

When he phones at 9am can you not be in the garage away from the children - or tell him it is the tv in the background?

I feel nervous for you - Do you need to go straight to your Mum's - or could you afford a night in a Travel lodge somewhere to put him off the scent if he did try and follow you?