As my user name indicates...(long, sorry)

[needsomeperspective]

I want to write this all down so that I can get some perspective on my marriage. I feel so tangled up in my mind I just don't know what is reasonable or not anymore.

My husband and I have been married 3 years, together 4, and are in our mid / late 30s. We have 2 small children. I work full time, my husband stays at home with the children - this is purely down to financial pragmatism.

There are a number of issues in our marriage which I am finding difficult to handle.

Top of the list is my husband's moods and anger. There was a time when DH and I used to have a laugh together although he has never been easy going, always a worrier and always had anger issues. When we first got together he would fly into irrational rages induced by jealousy, percieved criticism, general "stress" etc. This rage sometimes got to the point of physical aggression (grabbing, choking, hair pulling, screaming inches from face etc.) although he has never hit me or actually caused me physical pain - just fear.

He was prescribed anti-anxiety meds 3 years ago which helped hugely with this issue and it only tended to re-emerge when he was extremely drunk or when he missed his pills for a couple of days. Still not ideal, but I could live with it. However, he came off his anti-anxiety medication at the New Year which correlates with the decline in his mental state. Over the last few months his moodiness and misery have re-emerged and he has become increasingly difficult to live with. He is short tempered, never seems happy, tuts and sighs at pretty much everything I do and we never seem to enjoy ourselves. I would LOVE to go for just one single day with him being consistently happy, cordial and engaging. It seems like forever since that happened.

I also DREAD him going out drinking (which to be fair happens very seldom now) because I'm scared of what state / mood he will be in when he comes home. He has a hair trigger and I have to be very careful not to set him off if I speak to him when he comes in after a night out. He also tends to get himself so obliterated that he loses keys / phone / wallet / can't find his way home / gets into fights / rings the doorbell / rings the home phone and wakes the babies. We have fought about this issue for our whole relationship but the only change he has made is to go out less often - he seems to be incapable of moderating his alcohol intake when he does go out. The last time this happened I abaolutely lost it and told him I couldn't take this any more and I wanted him to leave and could he move to the spare room. Cue 3 days of stonewalling from him before I broke down and apologised to HIM for what I'd said. No apology from him to me for anything.

I appreciate that he is very stressed being stuck at home with the babies all the time, plus we have financial worries and my job situation is insecure.

He has said he "didn't imagine his life would be like this" and I think in many ways regrets that we have the children (although he loves them to bits) and that our lifestyle is so confined and child-centric. He has said that he often wishes we could just be the two of us again, but I can't change things back now can I?!

Another issue is our sex life. We tend to have sex quite infrequently - once every 2 weeks or so on average. Occasionally more, sometimes less. I would have sex every day if I could, I crave the intimacy of our early years when I felt close to him and sex is the only thing right now which even comes close to bringing back that illusion for me. He however has said that he has a low sex drive and will never want it as much as I do. So we compromise. Or rather I just wait for him to initiate it - which isn't often. When we do have sex it is usually pretty perfunctory - rarely any kissing or touching outside of the obvious areas and no real feeling of intimacy or joy between us. I get the very strong feeling he only does it to keep me from getting too unhappy and to stave off a row not because he actually has any desire for me at all.

I shall add here that I have put on a good deal of weight with the babies which I am now trying to lose. He has never once complained about my weight or body and has told me he loves me for ME and doesn't care what I weigh. But equally when I confessed to him how much I am struggling to come to terms with my post-baby body he said and did nothing to reassure me. He never looks at and rarely touches my body which makes me want to hide it. I should add that he also has gained weight and feels very insecure about himself physically (he used to play a lot of sports competitively and was in excellent shape so notices a real difference in himself). He is extremely good looking but considers himself to be physically unattractive - this is just part of a much deeper lack of self-confidence and self-esteem.

I do not feel loved and supported right now and am struggling to communicate with my H about the changes I feel we need to make. He usually takes any such discussion as deeply offensive personal criticism and will consequently sulk, stonewall, speak angrily ("everything is all my fault again I see") or even fly into a rage despite my pleas to hold a reasonable constructive conversation. I want him to go back to the doctor and maybe try some different meds to see if they can iron out some of the unwelcome side effects of his previous pills (lethargy, tiredness, lack of libido). He says he will but still hasn't made an appointment - his reasons are he is worried we can't afford it or the babies have been too demanding for him to make a phone call. If I remind him he makes me feel like I am nagging / hounding him relentlessly.

Where do I go from here? Joint counselling?

need

Have you undergone any therapy?

I too am with AF (does that make it 4?). In what universe is "throat grabbing acceptable? It doesn't matter if it was 3 years ago or 30 years ago.

I feel frustration mixed with concern for you. Frustration because unlike many of the posters on here you are employed and seem to be in a relatively good financial situation.

I could easily see how poverty/deprivation/poor housing/unemployment would keep someone in a situation which looks from the outside world to be untenable but your circumstances are very different.

To repeat (I won't post again,honest) I am not saying leave him forever but I am saying separate for a while and get the perspective your name implies that you want.

Sorry to be harsh. I won't post again as I think I am becoming boring.

Best of luck to you and your DC.

I don't think he will improve with you with him. He has no incentive to do so.

Sorry, I missed your last big post. Please stick to this scrupulously.

But at the end of the day, whilst this is all very interesting from the perspective of a psychological study it doesn't alter the facts which are that he can be a nasty, aggressive, scary asshole and that isn't fair on me. And it needs to stop.

Hear Hear. This is the crux of it, for me. I have suffered from anxiety, depression, irritability, anger. I know that it can improve. But it becomes abusive when someone does nothing about it, and your partners can become abused, even if the other is having treatment and it is not working......

Also agree with AF.

Needsome, you say at the start of your post that 'there was a time when you and DH used to have a laugh together'. When exactly was that time? - because being screamed at, having your hair pulled, being grabbed round the throat doesn't sound like much of a laugh. And this was before you had children and presumably before you were under so much stress as a couple. Any one of those incidents should have been enough to make you walk (or run) away, but it seems that your desire to 'fix' your DH goes above and beyond the call of duty.

You have drawn up a fantastic list of all the things you can do to improve the situation, and all the things your DH must do, but in the meantime you're living with a man who is, in your words, a 'scary, aggressive asshole'. This is your choice - and you can put as much energy into all those tasks as you see fit. But sadly, your children don't have the choice.

Sorry if this is all a bit blunt. I just think a partner should be someone who cherishes you, at the very least. And nothing that you've said makes it sound like he does.

But sadly, your children don't have the choice.

I agree with this too. The bar needs to be set very high when children are concerned. When they become toddlers, and unreasonable, his stress levels will become sky high.

Your title of your OP is your username? Need some perspective?

I have read this thread from top to bottom and everyone has said the same thing. That you're not safe, that this is not normal behaviour, that you and your children are at risk.

Thing is, why post that you need some perspective and then when it's given, not take it?

I can see how you're minimalising things that he does so that you can carry on your day to day life and not upset the life balance that you think that you have.

It's funny (or not) as I was just having a conversation with a friend about how most people think of domestic violence as a punch in the mouth when in reality, it goes much further than that. Have a look at the Women's Aid website, they can explain it in better terms than I.

I know that when I finally left XDP my (then) 18mo DD was displaying signs of stress of having to deal with the situation we were living in.

I know how hard it is living with someone on meds, but I do think you're normalising all this behaviour on his past and the fact that he needs some serious counselling.

I hope you and your children are safe and that you heed everyones warning in this thread, however, I'm quite sure you won't be leaving him just yet and I just hope you and your children are safe.

Well he started taking 50mg of Zoloft yesterday. We shall have to see how that affects him over the course of the next few weeks.

He found this thread last night while I was putting the baby to sleep as I?d left it open on the laptop we share. He was obviously very hurt and angry, but he didn?t fly off the handle. He asked for some time to himself and went and laid down on the spare room bed in the dark to calm down. When he came down we discussed why I?d posted, that I didn?t want to speak to friends IRL because I thinks it?s disloyal to your spouse to involve friends in your marital issues but I needed to get some outside input and to try to write things down to clear my head. He was still very angry (and humiliated, and guilty, and ashamed I think) but understood my reasoning. He didn?t lose his rag or fly into a rage or threaten me or anything else beyond the pale. This morning he is calm and affectionate again.

To those who have expressed concern about my or the children?s physical safety I don?t believe you need to be. Even at his worst, years ago, unmedicated and drunk he has never actually injured me in any way ? not so much as a bruise. He has been threatening, manhandled me, grabbed me and scared me but has never caused me any physical damage whatsoever. He has never threatened or lost his temper with the children ever. Not once. And I truly do not believe he would ever, ever do so. Make of that what you will.

My concern has been far more about emotional or mental damage which can be inflicted (on all of us) from living long term with someone who is negative and angry.

We shall have to see what difference these pills have on his mental state. And if they are not as effective as the Cipralex he can always switch back and we shall just have to resign ourselves to the side effects.

"He has been threatening, manhandled me, grabbed me and scared me but has never caused me any physical damage whatsoever".

Still well within the definition of physical abuse. Just saying.

Most women didn't wake up this morning and say "He spied on me and got angry, but didn't physically attack me. Yay, I'm onto a winner!" For most people, that option is just not on the table, not even imaginable.

Anyway, I'm now concerned that saying anything negative about the relationship will be used against you, so I'll leave it there. Good luck, and here's hoping the meds make your life better.

"He has been threatening, manhandled me, grabbed me and scared me but has never caused me any physical damage whatsoever. He has never threatened or lost his temper with the children ever. Not once"

That does not make it more ok either. This is yet more minimising on your part.
So what does that teach your children about relationships?. That you were at that time his personal and emotional punchbag (you still are). They don't themselves have to be physically hit but the emotional scars are still there all the same.

You orginally wrote the following:-
"I have a history of hanging onto a relationship's icy corpse until it has to be pried out of my relentless iron grip. I was brought up to believe that hard work can fix anything and a responsibility once undertaken is not renounceable".

Why do you think the above is the case; is that what your own parents taught you about relationships?. To have an inbuilt need to rescue and or save someone. He was never yours to rescue and or save. It looks like history is again repeating itself.

Oh yes, I'm not debating that. I'm just saying I don't fear for my life or limbs. For what its worth. He is not very computer savvy so I doubt if he would be able to find this thread himself from a cold start - even now he knows what website its on. He only came across it because I oh so cleverly left it open and had just posted something which was very evidently about us / him.

I'm not, and haven't at all in this thread, either minimized or excused any behaviours. Discussing reasons for someone's heinous actions is not making excuses for them and giving explanations or clarifications of events is not "playing down" what happened.

I'm attempting to be scrupulously accurate and factual in the information I provide in my answers to people's questions so as not to mislead readers and so as to get the most useful feedback.

Catastrophising is as unhelpful as minimizing. I need to be able to assess the situation for what it IS not what it might have been or could be.

While it is very interesting and useful to hear others experiences and see the paralells and differences to my own situation it's NOT really useful to extrapolate worst case examples of what might have happened / might happen and conclude my children are in imminent physical danger if I don't immediately pack their bags. They aren't.

I'm not sure what I garnered from my parents marriage really. I rarely saw them argue, I certainly can't remember any individual incidents of rows at home. My mother finds my father rather irritating (as do I because he is quite an irritating man and a fusspot) and I found out as an adult that they had their own problems they had to work through (or remain bitter about in my mother?s case) but I don't recall being aware of any negative atmospheres or anything like that growing up.

My father worked very long hours during the week and was what you might call a "traditional" male - i.e. he was the breadwinner and didn't quite know what to do with a child. I don't remember giving him much headspace at all really growing up - my mother was the one who did everything for me - practically and in terms of discipline. My father was an "ask your mother" type. It was a typical middle class country upbringing - bike rides, tree climbing, activities every evening (ballet, swimming, riding, music lessons) village school then girls grammar education. All very standard and untraumatic. I suppose this could all be my father?s fault for being uninvolved and largely absent at the office. But I'd hardly say that was unusual in the 1980s.

Yet I ended up being a rather promiscuous and sexually adventurous teenager who confused sex with love and thought one could induce the other. All fitted in around getting my school work done on time of course.

I really have no idea why I feel these "rescuing" tendencies. All I can think is that I WAS brought up to be very dutiful, practical and take my responsibilities and commitments extremely seriously. Maybe that?s it.

I feel for you. Has he got PND? Because you seem to have done an awful lot in four years. My DH and I met, married and had babies at the same time as you and there have been times when I have felt very low because all the life changes hit me so fast and maye he is the same, especially if he is staying at home with the kids - it´s isolating for women, I imagine its even worse for men. There have been times when I have felt very angry and bereft of my career and indivuality.

But I am not excusing his behavour - i think its appalling.
He needs to see a doctor, and maybego back to work. You cant leave kids with him if he is so volatile.

OP seems like you can intellectualise and justify why you are putting up with this abuse. And you will allow worse things to happen and they will happen to your children but you can always explain it away so it's okay. They haven't asked for this but you must know that every moment of abuse they experience or witness will be at the hands of someone that you allow to remain. As a child who was in a similar situation whilst I loathe my father I hate my mother perhaps even more so.

I agree Posie, and if they ever do witness or experience any abuse I shall let you know about it. Its ME that has experienced that not them.

Agree Alive. We have had a huge lot going on in the last 4 years - more so for him because he has left his job, his friends and family and even moved country to be with me. While he has made friends and settled here well he does find it isolating and loath as he would be to admit it, slightly emasculating to be at home and not in FT employment. 2 kids in 2 years and now money worries on top makes life very stressful at times.

I'm by nature laid back and a glass-half-full type so I cope better. He is the opposite. I've also had fewer changes to adapt to, and I actually thrive on that sort of thing really - a challenge is something to get my teeth into, whereas for him it is something very scary and potentially awful to be obsessed over all night long until it drives him mad.

'if they ever do witness or experience any abuse I shall let you know about it.'

So you're confident that you'll just know, yes? Did you read WhiteShores post? Maybe you should read it again.

'Catastrophising is as unhelpful as minimizing.' No, not really. Not when you have young children and a man who has shown himself unable to control himself properly having care of them when you are not there.

Your children aren't in a position to draw up a charter, have the adeptness of mind to get on with minimising his behaviour and how it affects them, or, heaven help them, even defend themselves against them if they need to when you aren't even there to see it

'He has never threatened or lost his temper with the children ever. Not once. And I truly do not believe he would ever, ever do so. Make of that what you will.'

• Yes, everyone on here who has lived through similar, either as an adult or as a defenceless child, is making exactly what they will of it, which is why you are getting the responses you are getting. YOU AREN'T THERE TO SEE WHAT HE DOES. YOU CAN'T KNOW.

Read WhiteShores posts again.

"manhandled me, grabbed me and scared me but has never caused me any physical damage whatsoever."

no bruises is irrelevant if you were scared and intimidated - you (or your DC) dont have to have physical bruise or evidence.

he has gone "so far" before. stopped - just - scared you but in control so as not to bruise or maim? keeps you on your toes tho...

without meds he could one day explode (my exp did)

let's hope for you and him the new meds work.

Make of that what we will? OK. He has physically abused you. You can carry on making these excuses for him all you want, and start accusing everyone on this thread of "catastrophising" but we have reacted to your words alone. Not our own preconceptions of anything. What you have described, and are now excusing with one trite "poor wee emasculated diddums of a man" comment after another is appalling abuse.

And neither you,nor I, nor anyone reading have any idea what he does when he's on his own with those children. But 2 under 2s are not going to be doing his "stress" levels any favours.
I just hope for your own conscience that they don't turn round in years to come and give you the wake up call that people on here have tried, and failed to.

Oh, and like the men who made the atomic bomb...he ain't gonna have unlearned your user name and the mumsnet logo overnight. Please don't kid yourself.

But where have I excused anything and where have I said it's NOT appalling abuse? I have said very clearly that it IS!

What I have said is that I believe categorically he has never abused our children in any way. And if I had even the shadow of a doubt over that I wouldn't be leaving them with him.

That is my decision and my judgement call to make.

Sure is.

Thank fuck it's not mine.I like to sleep with a clear conscience.

I'm now getting nasty, for which I (kind of) apologise.

One final question from me. Did this thread not turn out as you hoped? Were we all supposed to say you were over-reacting and should be doing things to make his life easier? What exactly? Because those responses are the only ones you seem remotely interested in listening to.

I feel very sorry for you. And more so for your children.

A "really good Dad" does not engage in behaviour that instills fear in the mother of his children.