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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

As my user name indicates...(long, sorry)

185 replies

needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 08:18

I want to write this all down so that I can get some perspective on my marriage. I feel so tangled up in my mind I just don't know what is reasonable or not anymore.

My husband and I have been married 3 years, together 4, and are in our mid / late 30s. We have 2 small children. I work full time, my husband stays at home with the children - this is purely down to financial pragmatism.

There are a number of issues in our marriage which I am finding difficult to handle.

Top of the list is my husband's moods and anger. There was a time when DH and I used to have a laugh together although he has never been easy going, always a worrier and always had anger issues. When we first got together he would fly into irrational rages induced by jealousy, percieved criticism, general "stress" etc. This rage sometimes got to the point of physical aggression (grabbing, choking, hair pulling, screaming inches from face etc.) although he has never hit me or actually caused me physical pain - just fear.

He was prescribed anti-anxiety meds 3 years ago which helped hugely with this issue and it only tended to re-emerge when he was extremely drunk or when he missed his pills for a couple of days. Still not ideal, but I could live with it. However, he came off his anti-anxiety medication at the New Year which correlates with the decline in his mental state. Over the last few months his moodiness and misery have re-emerged and he has become increasingly difficult to live with. He is short tempered, never seems happy, tuts and sighs at pretty much everything I do and we never seem to enjoy ourselves. I would LOVE to go for just one single day with him being consistently happy, cordial and engaging. It seems like forever since that happened.

I also DREAD him going out drinking (which to be fair happens very seldom now) because I'm scared of what state / mood he will be in when he comes home. He has a hair trigger and I have to be very careful not to set him off if I speak to him when he comes in after a night out. He also tends to get himself so obliterated that he loses keys / phone / wallet / can't find his way home / gets into fights / rings the doorbell / rings the home phone and wakes the babies. We have fought about this issue for our whole relationship but the only change he has made is to go out less often - he seems to be incapable of moderating his alcohol intake when he does go out. The last time this happened I abaolutely lost it and told him I couldn't take this any more and I wanted him to leave and could he move to the spare room. Cue 3 days of stonewalling from him before I broke down and apologised to HIM for what I'd said. No apology from him to me for anything.

I appreciate that he is very stressed being stuck at home with the babies all the time, plus we have financial worries and my job situation is insecure.

He has said he "didn't imagine his life would be like this" and I think in many ways regrets that we have the children (although he loves them to bits) and that our lifestyle is so confined and child-centric. He has said that he often wishes we could just be the two of us again, but I can't change things back now can I?!

Another issue is our sex life. We tend to have sex quite infrequently - once every 2 weeks or so on average. Occasionally more, sometimes less. I would have sex every day if I could, I crave the intimacy of our early years when I felt close to him and sex is the only thing right now which even comes close to bringing back that illusion for me. He however has said that he has a low sex drive and will never want it as much as I do. So we compromise. Or rather I just wait for him to initiate it - which isn't often. When we do have sex it is usually pretty perfunctory - rarely any kissing or touching outside of the obvious areas and no real feeling of intimacy or joy between us. I get the very strong feeling he only does it to keep me from getting too unhappy and to stave off a row not because he actually has any desire for me at all.

I shall add here that I have put on a good deal of weight with the babies which I am now trying to lose. He has never once complained about my weight or body and has told me he loves me for ME and doesn't care what I weigh. But equally when I confessed to him how much I am struggling to come to terms with my post-baby body he said and did nothing to reassure me. He never looks at and rarely touches my body which makes me want to hide it. I should add that he also has gained weight and feels very insecure about himself physically (he used to play a lot of sports competitively and was in excellent shape so notices a real difference in himself). He is extremely good looking but considers himself to be physically unattractive - this is just part of a much deeper lack of self-confidence and self-esteem.

I do not feel loved and supported right now and am struggling to communicate with my H about the changes I feel we need to make. He usually takes any such discussion as deeply offensive personal criticism and will consequently sulk, stonewall, speak angrily ("everything is all my fault again I see") or even fly into a rage despite my pleas to hold a reasonable constructive conversation. I want him to go back to the doctor and maybe try some different meds to see if they can iron out some of the unwelcome side effects of his previous pills (lethargy, tiredness, lack of libido). He says he will but still hasn't made an appointment - his reasons are he is worried we can't afford it or the babies have been too demanding for him to make a phone call. If I remind him he makes me feel like I am nagging / hounding him relentlessly.

Where do I go from here? Joint counselling?

OP posts:
Bucharest · 24/04/2012 11:41

Seriously, OP, why did you start this thread?
You asked for perspective, you've been given unanimous perspective. And yet you continue to make excuses for him. That's what they are, excuses. You're covering for him. There are women, and men, on here, and that I know IRL who have had far worse childhoods than your precious husband yet they don't bully and abuse the people they purport to love like yours does.

And not one of your posts shows me someone suffering from anxiety issues. A god-complex, a violent bullying thug, a boozer, a poor excuse for a husband and father, yes, but the only anxious one you describe is yourself.

Buy the books. Try and see that your life could be so much better and that you deserve so much more.

Sorry for being harsh.

NicknameTaken · 24/04/2012 11:44

Give her a chance, though. It's a process of thinking and looking and reading and battling your way through to painful realizations.

That said, I agree with Oxford - your dcs have first call on your mothering, not him.

OxfordBags · 24/04/2012 11:50

You have so much more power here than many women trapped with an abuser. You have a good job, your own money and a partner who wouldn't want to fight you for custody. I presume you'd also have family and friends if you moved back to the UK to start afresh as well?

Years ago, I was in a EA relationship (with hints of physical, financial and sexual) and I see so many women on here doing what I did; not being able to let go because you can't understand how and why someone who was so nice to you and professes to love you can be so awful to you. And you also chase 'justice' - justice in the way of always craving for him to realise he's being shit, apologise profusely and change. But it's not going to happen, because the abusive part of him is the REAL him, not the guy you initially fell for or you aee glimpses of now and then (the carrot part of his carrot and stick act, and it is an act). You can chase this 'justice' for the rest of your life but you won't get it.

You say you believe that hard work can achieve anything. Well, you can't flog a dead horse. Why not channel your excellent hard work ethic into getting better self-esteem for yourself and finding the bravery ro remove you and your children from this mire and build them a good and happy life, where they won't be abused-by-proxy by watching their mother be treated like this? It's not easy, but you have so much going for you to help you make the move.

needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 12:00

Kaluki - THAT is what conerns me the most - when the DCs are old enough to understand the sighs, slamming aorund, eye rolls, shouting at the dog, cursing the cat etc. Its debilitating living with that.

I do believe ANY man would feel emasculated in some way by not being employed (I felt that way myself when I wasn't working and I'm a Mummy who is "supposed" to be at home). My H is very much not a neanderthal in his views on women and claims to be fine with being a SAHD in principle but the reality is harder. Thats why I think going back out to work really has to happen.

OP posts:
HotDAMNlifeisgood · 24/04/2012 12:03

The DCs are already old enough to be affected by it. They are little sponges, and an empathy-devoid parent is very, very damaging to an infant.

needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 12:09

OxfordBags, the reason I'm discussing my DH not my children is that is what I started the thread to do. This conversation is about my marriage and my issues with their father. I have no issues to discuss relating to my children except how their fathers problems might impact upon then either now or in the future. They are both utter angels who sleep 12 hours a night, nap twice a day and are almost always a delight to be around. I have been very lucky to have easy and very contented babies.

I totally agree though that "managing" DHs moods is a huge preoccupation and that mental energy could be so much better expended elsewhere.

Oh, forgot to explain the meds thing - he stopped taking them because 1. he worries obsessively about our finances and our health insurance doesn't cover his meds or counselling (which was amounting to hundreds of pounds a month) and 2. the side effects were difficult to deal with in their own way - lethargy, lack of interest in life, tiredness, lack of libido and tweaking doseage and adding other medications didn't help. He wanted to get "clean" and see how much of his improved emotional state over the last 3 years was really the pills and how much was him. That has become abundantly clear to me if not yet to him!

OP posts:
needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 12:18

HotDAMN - I agree that his moodiness must in some measure be absorbed by the babies and I'm not at all happy about that. That also propels me towards pushing him into the world of work (and him being away for several weeks at once) and also pushing him back onto his medication and therapy as soon as possible.

Oh the plus side, when he IS medicated appropriately he is the most hands on, playful, loving, patient father I have ever come accross. He will spend hours on the mats, making silly faces, playing with playdough, building brick towers, teaching words and encouraging their development as well as taking care of the more mundane nappy changing stuff. He is still like that now SOME of the time, just not ALL of the time. And all of the time is what it ought to be. He is especially stressed if one of them is having a cranky day - he just doesn't handle that well.

OP posts:
cestlavielife · 24/04/2012 12:20

"As a mother, your duty is to your kids, not a nasty, moody man-child. Stop worrying about him, worry about yourself and them"

it is true.
something my friend would tell me too.
she was right.

and he would say "but what about me?"
if i put the Dc first

if he cannto se ethat off meds he is acrap parent and partner then your only option is to ask him to leave.

you had one yar of irrational rages etc.
then meds and thins improved.
now he off meds and it is crap.

so ?
what is he going to do?
what are you going to do?

needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 12:21

See, I find myself doing it again - rolling between his good points and bad ones.

It's like the Liberty scale which just keeps rocking back and forth never settling on one side or the other. Exhausting.

OP posts:
Kaluki · 24/04/2012 12:26

I spent 5 years with an abusive ?arsehole?man when I first split with my exH.

I told myself the dc were too young to see it and I ?shielded? them from a lot of the abuse but it did affect them. For 5 years my focus wasn?t on them, it was on HIM, how to appease him, judge his moods, control his drinking (as if I ever could!!).

I feel like he not only stole 5 years of my life but deprived me of the most important years of my dc?s childhood.
They were good babies too but I didn?t get to enjoy them because of him. Sad
I will hate him forever for that reason alone.

needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 12:27

Give me 24 hours cestlavielife and I'll come back and update you with progress / plans regarding those all important questions...

OP posts:
HotDAMNlifeisgood · 24/04/2012 12:32

That also propels me towards pushing him into the world of work (and him being away for several weeks at once) and also pushing him back onto his medication and therapy as soon as possible.

Can you accept that it is not within your power to make him work, or to make him take his meds? Only he can make those choices. If he wants to. And no, you can't make him want to either: it can only come from him if it is to lead to any on on his part.

needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 12:41

HotDANM - Yes, I do accept that. But he is not actually objecting to either working OR taking meds, he is just too apathetic depressed/lacking in motivation/confidence to make it happen without... shall we say encouragement.

He has recently completed a 2 week residential course qualifying him for a better job and is slowly getting all his paperwork in order to apply directly for roles advertised. Its not like I'm asking him to find work and he is resisting. He is just plodding about it.

He took his meds (fairly) reliably for 3 years so I didn't have to force that on him either.

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 24/04/2012 12:42

I am sorry, and this is most unlike me, but I didn't get past the point in your OP where you said "he pulls my hair and chokes me but he doesn't hit me"

I couldn't read properly any more after that, just skimmed

I have never seen so many excuses for an inadequate man made by a woman for a very long time, and I have read lots of threads like this

wake up, fgs

AnyFucker · 24/04/2012 12:44

Do you realise what you are saying ?

You want him to go back to work to limit his time with the children, because you are worried about the effect he will have on them

You have normalised so much, OP

Bucharest · 24/04/2012 12:45

How old are the children?

AnyFucker · 24/04/2012 12:52

he is in complete control of your relationship, but in a passive-aggressive way with flashes of physical aggression

so much so, that you prioritise his welfare above all else, including your children, and make every rationalisation under the sun for his behaviour

this is not a Prince Among Men, deserving of special consideration

this is a pathetic person who can't make a decision which fish to choose, but is quite happy to drag you round by your hair and choke you

this is a common-or-garden fuck-up, who wishes only to bring the rest of you down to his level...he's doing a damn good job getting you to run his life for him and refusing to help himself

cestlavielife · 24/04/2012 12:53

i dont get why he wont take meds now.
surely even he can see it is worth the cost.

he did for 3 years - why stop?

and given you've had 3 months of proof he needs them - why wont he go back on them today?

(tho are they really that much of a miracle cure?)

captainmummy · 24/04/2012 12:53

The prob with stopping the meds is that the person inside (ie him) doesn't see things the way you do - he doesn't see how much he changed without the meds, all he feels is that the moods/depression/grumpiness/lethargy are how he feels at this time. Once he's back on them, he may,with hindsight, see how he was/is now, but from the inside, it's very difficult to see a reason to go back to the dr/get a job/change this awful, humdrum, agressive life.

struwelpeter · 24/04/2012 12:55

This needs paring back to the bones: there has been some physical abuse and some is enough to make anyone scared as you are.

He probably does have some MH problems: they need professional help as it appears he manifests those through being abusive

He appears not to realise that drinking exacerbates the problem: so he needs to stop getting drunk.
You are expending way to much energy on finding workarounds for the problems he has and are worried about the children's future if not their present.

The money and the financial stuff is simply stuff: if the family and working it out are at the heart of your concerns - you say upthread that you take responsibility and work on things like grim death til a solution is found.

Don't go for workarounds - go for a solution, the root cause is with him and his problems. He will have to do that work himself and you need to look at a solution for you that doesn't involve him as he is at present.

You've got some pretty blunt advice upthread, it is scary, a lot of people will understand your desperate need to find some shreds of hope that this can be managed rather than tackled head on, but several people who've posted will have been on the journey you are on now and know from bitter experience that only tackling the root cause will work.

That said, don't be disheartened those people are exactly the ones who will support you as you take those first steps. But make this about you, not him.

Vicky2011 · 24/04/2012 12:55

Did he choke you and pull your hair before you had children with him, OP?

needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 12:58

Both under 2.

I am sure you are right AF. I have certainly "normalised" a great deal. My mother would call it "making the best of things" Sad

I'm not an idiot, I do realise how nuts it is to be saying "he only pulls my hair and screams in my face sometimes / when he is really drunk / if he is pushed too far" etc. I really, honestly do.

But I can't get rid of both the hope that his behaviour will get better and the feeling that when he is on the right medication / in therapy the good outweighs the bad.

I also feel as NicknameTaken says, pity for his past, love for him and a wish to at least give him the opportunity and time to heal himself if he wants to and can. Of course, I know I cannot MAKE HIM BETTER. But I can, even if just out of respect for my marriage vows, give him the opportunity to make himself better if he wants to try. The only exception to that being if it negatively affects my children.

OP posts:
needsomeperspective · 24/04/2012 13:09

The prob with stopping the meds is that the person inside (ie him) doesn't see things the way you do - he doesn't see how much he changed without the meds, all he feels is that the moods/depression/grumpiness/lethargy are how he feels at this time. Once he's back on them, he may,with hindsight, see how he was/is now, but from the inside, it's very difficult to see a reason to go back to the dr/get a job/change this awful, humdrum, agressive life.

^^
THIS

Vicky - yes he did. Hence me insitsing he went to see a mental health professional. I was married to him for a year during which he was medicated and did not repeat that behaviour - only after 12 months of sustained and marked difference in his mental state did we conceive our first child. He has never raged or been physically abusive when he has taken his medication. The only times during the 3 years he was on meds were when he had a gap between prescriptions due to his doctor being away / him not realising how low his supply was.

With regards to "miracle cure" - its certainly not that but the drugs do make a HUGE difference to him. But captainmummy's post above is just spot on. He actually asked me "Do you really notice a massive difference in me now I'm off my cipralex?" which made me go Shock. I mean DUH?! YOU don't??? But its because he can't properly recognise the difference in his behaviour from the INSIDE. he just knows he feels unhappy now, he can't remember how he felt / was before.

OP posts:
cestlavielife · 24/04/2012 13:14

so your answer is:

"yes i notice a massive difference and you need to go back on meds or leave"

what is wrong with that ultimatum?

NicknameTaken · 24/04/2012 13:15

Then put a deadline on it, and stick to it. I kept telling myself that if I could just make it to our first wedding anniversary, it would get better. It didn't.

"if it negatively affects my children". I'm sorry, but you know this deep down, don't you? It does affect them. Even if it's "just" by soaking up far too much of your energy, or by making it impossible for you to relax properly. You can't concentrate properly on them while you're treading on eggshells around him.

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