As my user name indicates...(long, sorry)

[needsomeperspective]

I want to write this all down so that I can get some perspective on my marriage. I feel so tangled up in my mind I just don't know what is reasonable or not anymore.

My husband and I have been married 3 years, together 4, and are in our mid / late 30s. We have 2 small children. I work full time, my husband stays at home with the children - this is purely down to financial pragmatism.

There are a number of issues in our marriage which I am finding difficult to handle.

Top of the list is my husband's moods and anger. There was a time when DH and I used to have a laugh together although he has never been easy going, always a worrier and always had anger issues. When we first got together he would fly into irrational rages induced by jealousy, percieved criticism, general "stress" etc. This rage sometimes got to the point of physical aggression (grabbing, choking, hair pulling, screaming inches from face etc.) although he has never hit me or actually caused me physical pain - just fear.

He was prescribed anti-anxiety meds 3 years ago which helped hugely with this issue and it only tended to re-emerge when he was extremely drunk or when he missed his pills for a couple of days. Still not ideal, but I could live with it. However, he came off his anti-anxiety medication at the New Year which correlates with the decline in his mental state. Over the last few months his moodiness and misery have re-emerged and he has become increasingly difficult to live with. He is short tempered, never seems happy, tuts and sighs at pretty much everything I do and we never seem to enjoy ourselves. I would LOVE to go for just one single day with him being consistently happy, cordial and engaging. It seems like forever since that happened.

I also DREAD him going out drinking (which to be fair happens very seldom now) because I'm scared of what state / mood he will be in when he comes home. He has a hair trigger and I have to be very careful not to set him off if I speak to him when he comes in after a night out. He also tends to get himself so obliterated that he loses keys / phone / wallet / can't find his way home / gets into fights / rings the doorbell / rings the home phone and wakes the babies. We have fought about this issue for our whole relationship but the only change he has made is to go out less often - he seems to be incapable of moderating his alcohol intake when he does go out. The last time this happened I abaolutely lost it and told him I couldn't take this any more and I wanted him to leave and could he move to the spare room. Cue 3 days of stonewalling from him before I broke down and apologised to HIM for what I'd said. No apology from him to me for anything.

I appreciate that he is very stressed being stuck at home with the babies all the time, plus we have financial worries and my job situation is insecure.

He has said he "didn't imagine his life would be like this" and I think in many ways regrets that we have the children (although he loves them to bits) and that our lifestyle is so confined and child-centric. He has said that he often wishes we could just be the two of us again, but I can't change things back now can I?!

Another issue is our sex life. We tend to have sex quite infrequently - once every 2 weeks or so on average. Occasionally more, sometimes less. I would have sex every day if I could, I crave the intimacy of our early years when I felt close to him and sex is the only thing right now which even comes close to bringing back that illusion for me. He however has said that he has a low sex drive and will never want it as much as I do. So we compromise. Or rather I just wait for him to initiate it - which isn't often. When we do have sex it is usually pretty perfunctory - rarely any kissing or touching outside of the obvious areas and no real feeling of intimacy or joy between us. I get the very strong feeling he only does it to keep me from getting too unhappy and to stave off a row not because he actually has any desire for me at all.

I shall add here that I have put on a good deal of weight with the babies which I am now trying to lose. He has never once complained about my weight or body and has told me he loves me for ME and doesn't care what I weigh. But equally when I confessed to him how much I am struggling to come to terms with my post-baby body he said and did nothing to reassure me. He never looks at and rarely touches my body which makes me want to hide it. I should add that he also has gained weight and feels very insecure about himself physically (he used to play a lot of sports competitively and was in excellent shape so notices a real difference in himself). He is extremely good looking but considers himself to be physically unattractive - this is just part of a much deeper lack of self-confidence and self-esteem.

I do not feel loved and supported right now and am struggling to communicate with my H about the changes I feel we need to make. He usually takes any such discussion as deeply offensive personal criticism and will consequently sulk, stonewall, speak angrily ("everything is all my fault again I see") or even fly into a rage despite my pleas to hold a reasonable constructive conversation. I want him to go back to the doctor and maybe try some different meds to see if they can iron out some of the unwelcome side effects of his previous pills (lethargy, tiredness, lack of libido). He says he will but still hasn't made an appointment - his reasons are he is worried we can't afford it or the babies have been too demanding for him to make a phone call. If I remind him he makes me feel like I am nagging / hounding him relentlessly.

Where do I go from here? Joint counselling?

I'm so sorry that your relationship is being such a struggle. I think underlying depression can cause anger and irritability, from my experience. That said, my marriage has coughed and sputtered in between being fine, for 30 odd years but with the help of marriage counselling - and that includes reading books on the subject too. BUT we have both wanted the relationship to continue if at all possible, so are committed to putting in the hard work needed...and it is work sometimes. I think the drinking, in your situation, would for me, be a huge stressor because of the inevitable behaviour that is so destructive. But perhaps your DH uses alcohol to self medicate at times. I wonder if a marriage counsellor (safe, controlled environment...and there are all sorts of counsellors both good and bad unfortunately)...might address the m/h side of his behaviour that really needs medication and counselling on an ongoing basis...
I really wish good luck to you all.

I agree with NicknameTaken.

I justified physical violence in an abusive relationship because he never punched, slapped or kicked me. he did grab, push and shove me, shout in my face and was verbally abusive.

I wish I had heeded the massive red flags. Seriously.

bringbacksideburns - I agree wholeheartedly about him working. I think that him being a SAHD hasn't helped his self-esteem and is not a long term tenable solution. We are working towards him working again and I'm interviewing a Nanny tomorrow to give him more of a break from the children. It is extremely difficult managing 2 small kids day in ay out for anyone, let alone someone who suffers from his anxiety issues. I do aympathise with him in this regard and is why I have made allowances for his behaviour more than perhaps I should have done.

shadowland his therapist said that in her view his alcohol problems were exactly that - self-medicating and going totally overboard because he has few outlets for his stress. She recommended exercise but he has yet to follow that through.

I do think he is depressed because he is lacking motivation to do much of anything outside of the home. He is also of course tired after being with the children all day and just wants to chill out in the evening rather than go to the gym.

I think we need to reorder our schedules and priorities to give him (and me) time to destress, exercise and have time alone. he also needs to see the doctor, start new meds and go to counselling - regardless of the cost.

I think the best way to manage this is simply to make it all a fait accompli - and also lead by example i.e "Tonight is my night for the gym, will see you at 8pm. Tomorrow is your night." and "I booked that apointment for you as I know you're swamped with the kids - its wednesday at 4pm, I've arranged childcare".

I think that would work and he would defeinitely go along with it. I am generally the leader in the relationship when it comes all pretty much all major (and minor) decisions.

Oh well, if you're not ready to hear it, you won't (been there too!)

See you again the next time he chokes you. I don't mean that flippantly. Good luck.

He has issues about 'then', and issues about 'now'. ie his past and his current life.

They have all become tangled in your head.

My h was also badly physically abused as a child (aged 12-14). This sort of past causes a great many issues in ones current life, in any case. There will be many unresolved feelings in himself about male power/lack of, and about self esteem and trust. These are not your issues and you cant help him with them.

I have been with my h 22 years, and it took me a long time to realise this.

His current situation- a SAHD- is pretty tricky for most men, and we all know the full list of reasons why that it. Society isnt set up for it, and it takes a very very balanced man to make it work.

Those two things together are a bit of a recipe for problems.

This isnt really about how you look, but about how he feels.

His behaviour towards you in the past is totally, totally unacceptable. I have never had to tolerate violence, and I wouldnt expect to.

I think the most constructive thing you can do to improve your life at the moment is look at what it is in your own past story which attracted you to him, and makes you think that you can 'fix' him. And also, why you have tolerated what you have.

I am really saddened by your last post. It just reads like a list of excuses

I have been a SAHP, and was tired and suffered PND. It didnt make me abusive to my DH. He excuses himself, you excuse him. Yet he is a grown man. A grown up!

If he is genuinely depressed, he must seek help, exercise, change his diet, take his medication promptly etc. He must deal with it, not hand it over to you to organise. He isnt 13. You arent his mum.

The worst line is this: 'I am generally the leader in the relationship when it comes all pretty much all major (and minor) decisions'

He dominates and controls you with his vicious outbursts, yet you are the leader? Do you mean, you are the one who takes responsibility? The grown up in the relationship?

He sounds horrible.

It seems to be that in an abusive relationship the abusive partner is by definition controlling. My H is not that at all. I am the main earner, I make all the major decisions on where to live, go on holiday, what car to buy etc. and even most of the small decisions - what to have for dinner, which restaurant to choose, whether to accept social engagements, red or white wine. I mean the man phoned me from the fish market this morning so I could tell him whether to buy red snapper or prawns for dinner. He also asks my permission before spending money, before going out, before arranging a social event. This is not characteristic of an abuser surely?

It does annoy me at times that he is incapable of making a decision about anything and literally likes to be told what to do. He is also very negative and apathetic about changing things. He will complain about the status quo but just say it is what it is, I'll stay miserable. Its up to me to find the solutions which he then moodily opines won't work / will be too expensive / are impractical etc. I then get on and do what I suggested in the first place and it always works out because I am relentlessly postive and always find way to MAKE things work.

He never tries to stop me seeing friends or family, he never tells me what to wear or what I can do or not do. He is extremely tidy and gets very stresed by mess but never complains openly about my horrible untidiness - he just cleans it up (although he will get moody and thundercloud like without directly addressing it which pisses me off).

Although some of his behaviour is definitely abusive - the rages I mean, the rest of it is certainly not text book abuse at all. This is why I have been prepared to work with the situation.

Isn't "control" one of the key defining factors in an abusive marriage?

If he can control his temper with your Dc then he can control his temper with you. He's choosing to lose his temper with you because he is abusing you. If he really couldn't control it because of all his issues, he would be losing his rag with everyone in every situation that stressed, annoyed or upset him. But he doesn't. Can't you see that?

And just because he has never hit or punched you, the other things you detail ARE domestic violence. He has physically abused you and now he emotionally and mentally abuses you. Do not underestimate how much your children observe and will continue to observe. You are teaching them lessons about relationships. Boys will learn to be abusers, girls will learn that this sort of shit is normal and they must tolerate it.

That he was abused can be a reason for some bad behaviours, but it can never, ever be an excuse. You sound like you are trying to heal him - but by letting your children live in this environment, you are creating the next generation of people who need healing because of dysfunctional childhoods, watching their mother be abused.

But maybe he "controls" me insidiously through his moods and rages. I do admit that when I MAKE all those decisions my overriding concern is whether my choices will make him more moody irritable and unpleasant to be around or less...

Have youread the red flags thread? Long butwlel worth a read.

Abusive men arent identikit. Not all abusive men are outwardly alpha male (although my abusive ex was). Many abusive men are childlike. They can't take responsibility for themselves.

You said in your first post that he flies into jealous rages, yet rarely initiates sex or looks at you/touches you. Sounds controlling to me.

excuse typos

x-posts sorry.

Yes he usually is able to control his anger with other people and outside the home. But he hasn't always been able to. He has in his past been in trouble at work and even with the police (drunken fighting in his youth) because of losing his temper. He has got into a couple of road rage confrontations as well. So it isn't JUST me he loses it with.

Will you at least do some more reading on this? You want to understand and you believe you can fix it, right? Try the Lundy Bancroft and Susan Forward books I mentioned, even if you don't think they apply to your situation.

Fwiw, my abusive ex never tried to make me stay at home. I moved to another country because I got a job, and he followed me. I financially paid his way, managed his immigration process, suggested he marry me and made all the arrangements. I often chose what restaurants we ate in and helped him choose the food. I sorted out our holiday arrangements and helped him with job applications.

Abuse comes in several forms. In my case, my ex wanted someone who would ease his way through life. He also raged and raged and found me wanting because I couldn't wave a wand and make his whole life perfect - I was magically meant to make things happen that he couldn't even articulate. It was like the primal rage of a small child against a mother for not being all-knowing and all-loving.

read lundy bancroft - what looks like deferring to you is kind of passive control. that he cant make decision which fish to buy? that he needs you so much? moody complainin miserbale - it is so wearing to live with someone like that. and howeve rmuch smiley face he puts on the kids will pick up on it ...

you not been together long and had children fast.

"not because I think he would ever HURT them - but because I do believe he is capable of being angry, moody and generally unloving, unfun and unlikely to engage with them in a positive way at all times - which is the ideal standard I would expect from a caregiver."

if he was your nanny you would kindly sack him right? give him two months notice?
suggest ways he could improve otherwise he would be out?

but because he is dad you put up...it makes it tricky.

my ex became SAHD and exhibited a lot fo your h's bahviours.

but it comes down to if he wont take meds/address his ossues then you cannto do that for him and you have to consider the long term.

by taking over and enabling him to carry on as he does you doign him n favours either. it is complex. you woudl benefit yourself from counselling even a few sessions with a relationhsip expert .

and read lundy bacroft book - some bits wont apply but some will.

Yes, I have read the red flags thread. Much of it was applicable to our early days - short courtship (marrued within 9 months), early declarations of love, hugely jealous, emotionally unstable, cheated then begged for forgiveness afterwards (and got it). Yes they were all there.

To be fair to him he improved DRAMATICALLY over the course of the marriage and was almost uniformly pleasant to be around UNTIL he stopped his meds and we had the added pressure of a second DC very close to the first one in a too-small house, AND financial worries AND both feeling crap about ourselves physically AND no family support around us.

Does he want to change? It doesn't sound like it to be honest. From what you have said you are in an abusive relationship- whether he can buy his own fish is irrelevant- you have described physical and emotional abuse and of course your children will be affected despite your best efforts to protect him.
I think you need some space,time and distance. I would take some time apart - a trial separation in order to decide your next steps.
He may change and seek help during this period or you may decide that you feel so much better you want to separate permanently .
In case I missed it- why did he come off meds?
Good luck You sound very capable

Then give him an ultimatim - he needs to sort out his meds by a certain date.

Do you know why many women stay with abusive men? Pity for them and guilt. And the feeling that they can fix the situation.

This is all very interesting and helpful so thank you very much. I am taking it in honestly.

NicknameTaken - you post has me cringing - could have been me that wrote it - even down to the moving to a foreign country, healping wth job apps etc...

I will get the Lundy Bancroft book - have been meaning to anyway having seen it recommended so many times on here.

cestlavie - I agree about the enabling thing. I am actually not helping his self-esteem issues by sorting everything out for him. I have been tackling this in small ways by just dumping responsibility on him for things "So, you're pissed off I haven't had the car serviced in a year. No problem, from now on the car and everything to do with it is your responsibility. Make it right."

Its also why I want him to start working again. He needs to feel more in control of his OWN life and maybe he will stop taking it out on me that he isn't happy. He still hasn't accepted (and nor have I to be honest) that he is responsible for his happiness, not me. We BOTH seem to think that making him happy is my job!

emdelafield - interesting what you say about a separation.

If he goes back to work it would involve weeks away at a time then weeks on lay-off at home. I'm actually quite pro this idea even though it would make my life MUCH harder with the children (and mean they would have to be with a Nanny all day rather than one of us which makes me ) because it would give me a break from his incessant moods and hopefully help him appeciate being home with us when he is here. He is used to this coming and going before we married so it may actually feel more natural to him than the SAHD role.

I was going to say "happy reading", but it may not be all that "happy"! Taking a long, hard look at your relationship can be extremely hard - I was lucky enough to access counselling through my workplace that helped me acknowledge the things that I really didn't want to see. If you can get some personal (not joint) counselling, I really recommend it. And if your relationship isn't all that bad, as you say, no harm done, eh?

And keep coming back to MN for a reality check. When you're inside a situation, you can no longer tell what's normal and what's not. Plenty of people here will cue up to remind you!

yes you need to step back.
you cannot make him happy
only he can.

and you are responsible for your happiness
and for that of your DC

he has chosen to stop meds which were apparently helping. that is bad. ultimatum time.

but dont fall into trap of thinking if you manage to make him happy everything will be fine...

or if he gets a job - it will be fine.

he may just find something else to moan about...my exP hated his job.
so he resigned.
then he moaned about not having a job.
it is always a no-win situation.

Why did he stop taking his meds?
Will he start taking them again if you tell him to?
You can't rescue him from his past - its not your responsibility. He needs professional anger management counselling and lots of it.
Does he feel emasculated being a SAHD? If you control all the money and make all the major decisions, could he be feeling like he has to claw back some control and being abusive is one of the ways he can control your emotions?
Don't for a minute think this won't affect your dc. It will. They will watch your relationship, every tut, sigh, eye roll will be logged in their little memories and they will see that as the blueprint for their own relationships when they grow up.

OP, it sounds v controlling to me. Controlling isn't being forced to be a housewife, with your husband locking you in and telling you what to do, tracking your every movement, etc. Most controllers are far more subtle. Abusers and controllers are awful all the time, because no-one would ever stay with them if they were. They operate with carrot and stick- some times nice, sometimes nasty, you never know what they'll be like. The good times make it seem silly or wrong to leave, the bad times are awful but suddenly they are okay again and so you feel confused as to what's happened and surely it must be your fault, etc., etc. it's like a script tou're both following.

You say you base your decisions on what will minimise his negative reactions or anger - that is being controlled, my love. You have a thousand excuses as to why he is like this and why he isn't so bad, etc. But what I want to know is this: what is your excuse for accepting this treatment? Not just as you in your own right but letting your children see their mother be treated so nastily by daddy?

I am registered disabled with a life-long pain issue (and was bullied so badly at school that I am scarred for life from some of the violence) and I am a SAHM and we have money worries, etc., but I would never even dream of treating my DH the way yours treats you. Do you not think it's telling that not a single person on here thinks his behaviour is acceptable?

I meant to add: you seem totally preoccupied by him and his moods and trying to save him, heal him, make him better, make him nicer, make him more fulfilled, etc., but you don't seem to talk much at all about your children. You seem to be more about mothering him in what you write than mothering them. I'm not saying you're a bad mum, not at all, no way, but you are mothering him by making constant excuses and tolerating all this. As a mother, your duty is to your kids, not a nasty, moody man-child. Stop worrying about him, worry about yourself and them.

Amen