As my user name indicates...(long, sorry)

[needsomeperspective]

I want to write this all down so that I can get some perspective on my marriage. I feel so tangled up in my mind I just don't know what is reasonable or not anymore.

My husband and I have been married 3 years, together 4, and are in our mid / late 30s. We have 2 small children. I work full time, my husband stays at home with the children - this is purely down to financial pragmatism.

There are a number of issues in our marriage which I am finding difficult to handle.

Top of the list is my husband's moods and anger. There was a time when DH and I used to have a laugh together although he has never been easy going, always a worrier and always had anger issues. When we first got together he would fly into irrational rages induced by jealousy, percieved criticism, general "stress" etc. This rage sometimes got to the point of physical aggression (grabbing, choking, hair pulling, screaming inches from face etc.) although he has never hit me or actually caused me physical pain - just fear.

He was prescribed anti-anxiety meds 3 years ago which helped hugely with this issue and it only tended to re-emerge when he was extremely drunk or when he missed his pills for a couple of days. Still not ideal, but I could live with it. However, he came off his anti-anxiety medication at the New Year which correlates with the decline in his mental state. Over the last few months his moodiness and misery have re-emerged and he has become increasingly difficult to live with. He is short tempered, never seems happy, tuts and sighs at pretty much everything I do and we never seem to enjoy ourselves. I would LOVE to go for just one single day with him being consistently happy, cordial and engaging. It seems like forever since that happened.

I also DREAD him going out drinking (which to be fair happens very seldom now) because I'm scared of what state / mood he will be in when he comes home. He has a hair trigger and I have to be very careful not to set him off if I speak to him when he comes in after a night out. He also tends to get himself so obliterated that he loses keys / phone / wallet / can't find his way home / gets into fights / rings the doorbell / rings the home phone and wakes the babies. We have fought about this issue for our whole relationship but the only change he has made is to go out less often - he seems to be incapable of moderating his alcohol intake when he does go out. The last time this happened I abaolutely lost it and told him I couldn't take this any more and I wanted him to leave and could he move to the spare room. Cue 3 days of stonewalling from him before I broke down and apologised to HIM for what I'd said. No apology from him to me for anything.

I appreciate that he is very stressed being stuck at home with the babies all the time, plus we have financial worries and my job situation is insecure.

He has said he "didn't imagine his life would be like this" and I think in many ways regrets that we have the children (although he loves them to bits) and that our lifestyle is so confined and child-centric. He has said that he often wishes we could just be the two of us again, but I can't change things back now can I?!

Another issue is our sex life. We tend to have sex quite infrequently - once every 2 weeks or so on average. Occasionally more, sometimes less. I would have sex every day if I could, I crave the intimacy of our early years when I felt close to him and sex is the only thing right now which even comes close to bringing back that illusion for me. He however has said that he has a low sex drive and will never want it as much as I do. So we compromise. Or rather I just wait for him to initiate it - which isn't often. When we do have sex it is usually pretty perfunctory - rarely any kissing or touching outside of the obvious areas and no real feeling of intimacy or joy between us. I get the very strong feeling he only does it to keep me from getting too unhappy and to stave off a row not because he actually has any desire for me at all.

I shall add here that I have put on a good deal of weight with the babies which I am now trying to lose. He has never once complained about my weight or body and has told me he loves me for ME and doesn't care what I weigh. But equally when I confessed to him how much I am struggling to come to terms with my post-baby body he said and did nothing to reassure me. He never looks at and rarely touches my body which makes me want to hide it. I should add that he also has gained weight and feels very insecure about himself physically (he used to play a lot of sports competitively and was in excellent shape so notices a real difference in himself). He is extremely good looking but considers himself to be physically unattractive - this is just part of a much deeper lack of self-confidence and self-esteem.

I do not feel loved and supported right now and am struggling to communicate with my H about the changes I feel we need to make. He usually takes any such discussion as deeply offensive personal criticism and will consequently sulk, stonewall, speak angrily ("everything is all my fault again I see") or even fly into a rage despite my pleas to hold a reasonable constructive conversation. I want him to go back to the doctor and maybe try some different meds to see if they can iron out some of the unwelcome side effects of his previous pills (lethargy, tiredness, lack of libido). He says he will but still hasn't made an appointment - his reasons are he is worried we can't afford it or the babies have been too demanding for him to make a phone call. If I remind him he makes me feel like I am nagging / hounding him relentlessly.

Where do I go from here? Joint counselling?

This is nagging at me because it seems so strange. He came off his meds becuse he wanted to get "clean"??

He wasn't taking illicit class A stuff he was on long term prescribed meds which patently worked.

A diabetic wouldn't come off insulin to get clean would they?

It sounds to me like more controlling behaviour.

I never tell people what to do and I am also one of life's copers and fixers but please go (even temporarily) and see how much better you and the DC feel.

I know you love him and want to honour your vows but I think ultimately this situation is not to his benefit either. You are enabling him to behave in an abusive manner with potentially dire consequences for all of you (him included)
Sorry to be bossy but it's from the heart (and head).

For what is worth, there are several parallels between you and me, except that exH was a sahp because he stopped working due to his depression and anxiety issues and we had only child only.
He didn't go out and come back drunk, but he drank at home hidden from me. I once went back home to find him sleeping in his own vomit and not answering the door to the supermarket delivery guy, with DS sleeping on the couch. He was supposedly ill...

Yes, he is controlling through his moods and rages.

I have felt that DS (7 now) has developed so much since ex left one year ago. He would rarely take DS out to play and would either sleep or be at the computer the whole day.

When I say left I mean I kicked him out because he turned physically violent with me and then made a serious threat that involved DS.
To this day I haven't left DS alone with him again.

For 6 years his efforts to get better were minimal.

He also kept saying that he'd rather be working, but did nothing to actually get back into work.

I almost divorced him over the way he treated our cat, who at some point sustained injuries on his head and back leg, but it was supposedly an accident. So I had no evidence... again.

His apparent helplessness is also control, because it becomes your responsibility, not his, and he has an excuse to pester you and engage you the entire time.

I had him calling me several times during an important meeting in another continent because of some silly issue. I actually answered because I was worried about his mental state.

When I left I had suicide threats and death threats.

But it has been a much better year than when married.

I suppose I was ready to leave when it happened. No regrets, except about not having it done sooner.

WhiteShores. A hug for that child that you once were if I may ((()))

I really hope the OP has taken these posts in. Sadly I fear her absence means that she is sitting thinking "but my dh isn't like that, he's different"

(WS, thanks for yesterday's post to me. And another hug ((())) ).

OP, I hope this hasn't been too overwhelming. I think we all want you to see how this serious it is, but there's always the risk you pick out the bits that don't sound like your experience and use that to say that we're all misreading your situation and projecting our own experiences.

But not one person has said, "Oh yes, I know a situation like yours and it all turn out fine". Get your nanny, ask your H to leave. Give him an incentive to go back on his meds and get his life together. You can't do it for him. If he does go back on to meds and turns permanently into Mr Lovely again, fine, after a year or so, maybe you'll get together again, who knows?

When I left my ex, I was totally preoccupied with his misery. I was walking down the street when I thought "Why not stop carrying his burden of feelings, just for an hour? Is it actually lessening his load? No, it's not. Why not think about my feelings, just for one hour?" It felt like a massively selfish and daring thing to do, but a massive weight rolled off my shoulders, permanently. I had tried to give and give and give and make up for all his old pain, but he was prepared to suck me dry and still demand more. He was an insatiable black hole of need, and I could never fill him up. On balance, he's no better and no worse since I left. An infinity of need plus you contributing everything you have still equals an infinity of need.

No, I haven't been sitting around sadly - just bit busy with FT work and 2 under 2s! I'm also in a different time zone.

I have read all the posts with great interest. I am not ignoring the posters who have outlined the worst case scenarios, I have taken them on board (and huge sympathies to those of you who have been through abusive relationships both from family and partners).

As I mentioned before my husband had HAD therapy he is just not currently IN therapy. He did discuss his anger management issues and told her of the incidents of violent behaviour towards me. He also discussed this with his psychiatrist. The dr was satisfied that his medication was working well and expressed no reservations whatsoever about his fitness as a father. (I had a session with him too).

The "getting clean" terminology was mine not his, to try to illustrate the concept. As I said I think he wanted to see if he could manage without the pills given that he had had therapy and had made such good progress with managing his anxiety and temper whilst medicated. It depresses him to think that he will need to be medicated for the rest of his life. But the reality of that has to be faced.

I had a discussion (carefully) with him again last night and he has phoned his psychiatrist and has an appointment for 4pm this afternoon. We discussed some alternatives to his previous medication which he wants to run past his doctor - perhaps trying zoloft instead of cipralex to see if the side effects are less intrusive. Whilst his previous pills were very effective they did make him lethargic, tired and affected his libido (which I didn't like much either given that he has a lower sex drive than me at the best of times). He accepted that the medication is necessary and he is 100% prepared to go back onto his pills and re-start therapy. I think the reason he was slightly resistant despite his very obvious mental downturn was he is disappointed and feels like a failure that he couldn't "do it himself". Hopefully the doctor will be able to reassure him that the medication redresses a physical / chemical imbalance which he can't just wish away.

I feel rather annoyed with myself that I tiptoed around him so much and didn't just take the bull by the horns earlier and say "you need to go back on your meds. STAT."

I think that has a lot to do with my own lack of self-confidence at the moment. I have been made redundant and have had to take a job at a third pay cut. I have always defined myself and set my self-worth upon the back of my career so that has knocked me quite hard. Add that to 2 back to back pregnancies with the accompanying hormonal swings and the physical changes in my (overstretched and blobular) post-baby body I have been feeling pretty down about myself.

I think I will take a watching brief on things and see how he is after one month back on his anti-anxiety meds.

I also interviewed a Nanny this morning who seems very suitable and we are likely to hire her provided references check out and we see her interacting well with our children in the next interview.

The alcohol issue (binge drinking basically) I am sure will not be one which is easily addressed. The problem and his attitude to drink is one which is long-term ingrained and reinforced by his job for the last 20 years. The industry in which he worked is notorious for being testosterone driven and very alcohol oriented. He has tried to work through it before with his therapist but didn't make much headway in achievening "moderation" once past a certain point. As incidents where he drinks excessively are rare I can probably deal with it PROVIDED he is on his medication and is therefore not violent or aggressive when drunk. The compromise we have agreed upon is that when he goes out drinking with his male friends he will stay with one of them and not come home until the next day. Not an ideal solution but a pragmatic one.

I am also in the process of drawing up a charter of things I NEED in the marriage and things I WOULD LIKE. For example: I need to feel safe in my own home. I need to know our children are receiving the best possible care. I need to feel respected and listened to. I need physical and emotional intimacy. Then break it down into specifics. I would like him to go to therapy at least once a fortnight. I would like him to take his medication regularly and ensure he fills prescriptions promptly. I would like us to spend at least one evening a week together without TV and other distractions and properly talk. I would like to have sex at least once a week, preferably twice. I would like to have a few hours a week to exercise. I would like to make sure that one evening a fortnight I can go out with my girlfriends and I would like him to do the same.

This should help me to establish clear boundaries and set up some healthy habits. Once his meds have kicked in I will also ask him what his charter would be. For example, I know he would like to have just a half an hour to himself at the end of each day so he can wind down and get a bit of peace after being with the kids constantly. I know he would like to exercise again. I know he would like me to make more of an effort to help him round the house and be tidier and more organised.

I'll update periodically as I'd like to refer back to this thread because so many of the comments have been very insightful and helpful.

I feel like I've got my head a lot straighter and we communicated very well last night. I felt listened to and as if my concerns were validated not brushed off.

Wow Need - you sound as if you really have it sorted! If it all goes according to your 'charter' (and his, when hes ready) you really sound on top of things.

Good luck

Only time will tell.... But actually DOING something about these problems immediately makes me feel better. I had begun to feel helpless, victimised and totally not in control of my own life.

Well, if he's going back on the meds, I can see why you are holding out hope. But please give it a deadline (say, three months) and if you don't feel safe in your own home (yes, an absolute rock-bottom basic entitlement), you can't keep waiting for it to improve, even if things are a bit better.

But you've got to have absolute zero tolerance for any further violence. No excuses of the "oh, his meds needs adjusting" type. If he can't realize that this is totally unacceptable, then he is just not safe for you or your babies to be around. It may be brain chemistry, it may be a choice, it doesn't matter. You don't put yourself and your dcs at risk because you feel sorry for him.

I have a good friend who is separated from her bi-polar ex. She still loves him - I'm not sure there will ever be another man for her - and they see each other all the time. He is in and out of her house, but has his own place too. His mental health issues were not under control, and she realized that her young son was scared and unsettled, and she made the judgement that she needed to make her home feel like a safe space for him.

I'm slightly concerned by all your focus on self-improvement. It's him, not you. I'm not saying that it's bad to work on yourself, but don't fall into the trap of thinking that it needs to be quid pro quo, that he hasn't sorted out his problems, but you can't reproach him because you haven't sorted yourself out either. He is not safe to be around. No perceived failing on your part comes anywhere near that particular shortcoming.

I'm not sure if you know about the drama triangle - might be of interest.

Agreed. I am not trying to take on responsibility for the problems in our marriage. But equally I am sure that they are not ALL him. It is so complicated at the moment because I can't tell which feelings stem from my OWN issues and which from the way he behaves and thus "makes" me feel: i.e. am I feeling miserable, unhappy, unvalued, unloved etc. because I have my own self-esteem issues going on or because he is treating me badly - or both. If I sort out my own problems it gives me a clearer view on the "is it me or is it him" question. That puts me in a stronger position to make a decision to stay or go if it comes down to that (in the absence of a clear cut decision maker such as further violent episodes).

Good luck with it! I understand what you mean about trying to get clarity on your own thoughts and feelings. It might be worth keeping a diary - it helped me sort my head quite a bit.

The drama triangle is very interesting thank you.

I certainly recognised myself in The Rescuer. I have no idea what made me this way though. When I had therapy myself years ago my therapst couldn't see any underlying events or relationships which could have been damaging in my childhood, which was about as idyllic as it gets.

It was interesting to note the DIFFERENCES between my H and the Perpetrator. He is not critical, judgemental and never puts me down. Quite the opposite usually. He has NO sense of entitlement and seems to feel he deserves nothing - especially not a nice wife and family. He never tries to justify his aggression or balme me for it - he recognises it is him. His outbursts don't appear to have anything to do with the will to control or manipulate - they instead seem completely defensive - as in "attack is the best form of defence".

He lashes out when he (usually mistakenly) perceives himself to be under attack in some way - being criticised, blamed, put down, confronted or belittled. He reacts to the "injustice" of this by getting angry instead of allowing himself to be ground down. His therapist says it is basically him trying to defend the child inside who was beaten, controlled and told he was worthless on a daily basis. He couldn't fight back then and so now overcompensates. Because of his low self-esteem, depression and anxiety he is hypersensitive and sees slights where there were none - a victim mentality. This is what the meds help with. His chronic irritability is due to persistent feelings of anxiety which the meds also quell to a good degree.

But at the end of the day, whilst this is all very interesting from the perspective of a psychological study it doesn't alter the facts which are that he can be a nasty, aggressive, scary asshole and that isn't fair on me. And it needs to stop.

Sounds like a sound bottom line!

I wish you all the best with the course of action you have agreed. :)

I totally agree with the bottom line too and that was mine as well.

I could cope with moodiness, etc, but not feeling threatened or afraid in my own home.
When we split I gave him a deadline of 6 months to get better, but there could not be any aggressive behaviour during that time. He failed, needless to say. :(

It seems that your OH at least has some good will for now.
What type of therapy is he doing?
Cognitive behavioural therapy is supposed to be very good for anxiety issues. It should lead to a change in the way we process our thoughts.

He previously did what I scathingly refer to as "blah blah" therapy - basic psychotherapy discussing childhood issues. Rehashing all the sob stories about being beaten black and blue by his stepfather.

I'm a big fan of CBT because as far as I'm concerned I don't care WHY something is the way it is or who can be blamed for it, what matters is the here and now and changing current behaviours.

Need, you might be sick of me by now, but I've been thinking about you all through my lunch-break. Thing is, I can't get past him choking you. He's not safe. He's not safe. HE'S NOT SAFE.

Great if you he engages with the meds and therapy, but I really think you need to ask him to leave while he does that. He needs to take ownership of the process, and do it at his desire and at his pace. (Were I a cynical woman, I'd put good money on it that he'd sabotage it somehow, in order to be rescued again. There are so many possibilities for him to punish you by stalling the process).

Your confusion is your sense of self-preservation saying "Danger! Danger!" while you keep over-riding it.

Just because he plays the Victim as well as the Perpetrator, doesn't mean that these two roles cancel each other. It's just a doubly unhealthy relationship.

You've said you're going to ready Lundy Bancroft -he also has a new one out "Should I stay or should I go?" I haven't read it, but I trust his take on it. Please add it to your reading list.

You can't trust someone who is capable of choking you. You are keeping yourself and your babies in a situation of danger because you think you are tough enough and clever enough and determined enough to handle it. This is not strength. It is wilful blindness.

You cannot save this man. You can save yourself and your children.

back on meds = good.
but stick to the bottom line.
set you boundaries.

your boundaries

Nick, without trying to minimize but for the sake of absolute clarity me using the word "choke" is probably more sensationalist than it needs to be. "grabbed by the throat" is more accurate. He did not actually cut off my airway it was a threatening gesture. It was also over 3 years ago and he has never done it since. I think he realized I was a hairs breadth from walking and would do if he ever did it again. Not that throat grabbing is in any way acceptable. I'm just trying to be scrupulous.

Okay, that does make it very slightly better. Thanks for the clarification.

You are certainly scrupulous in your minimising and excuse-making

agree with AF

Me three.