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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I fighting for my marriage or begging?

631 replies

cwtchy · 28/03/2012 15:28

I've been with my DH 14 years, and married for 5 of them. We have a 2 yo and a 4 yo. Things haven't been great for a while as often happens with 2 babies, but DH also works shifts and I work on his days off, which means we have had almost zero time to ourselves since the DCs were born.

DH has told me this week he doesn't love me anymore and it's the end of our marriage.

I'm bloody devastated. I love him as I've always done and was looking forward to our youngest starting nursery this sept so we could have more time together - I was so looking forward to that. He says however that it's gone on too long for him and the love just isn't there any more for him.

I don't want to just let him go, and have told him exactly how I feel, asked him to come to counselling with me, asked for the separation to be a trial one. But he is refusing and says he doesn't want to drag the pain out for me. Should I be trying everything to keep him, or do I deserve better and let him get on with it? I just feel like he hasn't even tried. We used to have such a fantastic relationship. I don't want to beg someone to stay with me who doesn't love me. But I also want to fight for what we had.

OP posts:
BeforeAndAfter · 09/04/2012 23:16

Blimey, when I read that you were pregnant, I thought there?d been an Easter miracle for a moment Grin.

Now, onto ELT (entitled little tosser - a most excellent name Fiventhree) - he really is a piece of work isn?t he? You see Cwtchy you didn?t follow the script. You didn?t let me him have his cake and eat it. First of all you took the control out of his hands by discovering and exposing his affair before he was ready to wheel out his new partner, once they?d cobbled together their web of lies plausible story of her helping him through his heartbreak and then - poof - cupid?s arrow struck them both but ... but ... the cheek of it, you outed him and then didn?t let him come home for his creature comforts. Poor ELT. So now he?s floundering around trying to figure out what to do next so all he can do now is sulk. That is the measure of the man. The whole inch of him.

Look at how you have fought him Cwtchy since he pulled your world apart. Your sword is made of intelligence, maturity, love, dignity and self-esteem. His shield is quite the opposite of that - it really is. From what I have read, he cannot boast a single one of those traits.

Based on my experience, which so many others echo, I expect that in the next few weeks, maybe sooner, your grief and sadness will start to turn to anger. I kind of feel sorry for him when that kicks in because that will be when you start to see him for what he is and you will be 10 times the force you are now. Poor bastard! The anger phase is tough because it is a double-edged sword (ooh, I?m on the weapon metaphors tonight, aren?t I?). With my anger I felt a rage that consumed me and turned me into quite the best horror writer going. Actually, had anyone seen what I was thinking I would have been arrested, I?m sure. But that rage does help you so when it starts, make sure you recognise it, let it flow and ride it.

For now I can give you more trite words based on experience. You won?t be the woman that the see in the photos because we all grow and move one and few of us can ever be the women we were and, quite frankly, why would we want to be - we need experiences, good and bad, to help us grow and evolve as individuals. You will be different but different in a good way. You will rediscover a joie de vivre, you really will. You will develop a spring in your step and a glow. People will comment on this. But the big thing that you may secretly be thinking and so scared of is that you will trust someone again. You really will. I said I would never trust another man again as long as I live and I?ve been proved wrong on that. I?m no-one's fool and I don?t have ?mug? tattooed on forehead - which for a while I did wonder - but I know, a year on from discovery that I can trust a man and that?s a big deal and a surprise. I haven't yet fallen in love but I've stood on the edge of that cliff and felt that I could just fall off into a great big pillow of swooning love. I didn't - he had flaws - so I dumped him Grin. So at the grand old age of 46 I've learned that I can trust again, love again and dump someone (that last one's a new skill!). That's all lying ahead of you, my lovely. It wasn't in your plan or on your map, but it's not terrible, it really isn't.

The other thing that surprises me is that I can think of H and I feel sort of caring about him. I think I still love him in a way but when I look at a photo of him I see a stranger. I see a man that I don?t fancy, that I don?t want to be intimate with and I certainly don?t want to kiss him so those scales do fall away from our eyes. It takes time and I?m sure that each of us has a different rhythm whereby we reach the recovery milestones at different times and, possibly, in a different order but we do move on. I?ll say it again, but from the way you write and the things you have done, you will move on very positively, you really will.

Don?t worry about feeling too sad to post; you don?t need to post much but it?s nice for us to know you?re OK.

As for sorting out the house - don?t do it until you?re ready (sort his shit out from the house but no need to tackle the big stuff yet). If he has to live with Mum, or in a shoebox to pay his share of the mortgage while you become strong enough to tackle the shit then tough. ELT had a choice, he took the wrong turn, made a shitty bed so let him lie in it.

I would strongly recommend that you don?t let him decorate/sort out the house. For now I think it would be a disaster for you if you had him spending all that time in the house, either when you?re there or not. I imagine you would come home from work looking for signs of where he?s been and what he?s been doing and you would become slightly demented from it - I know I would. I also think for him to be home when the DCs come home from nursery/school/shopping with you, would be terribly hard and confusing for them. I remember being told about one incident with DSD1 (then aged 8). H was at what had been the martial home sorting out something on the computer for their mother. The DSDs had been away on holiday for a week with Mum and when they arrived back he opened the front door and waved at them. After he left, DSD1 was inconsolable because she thought that her Dad had come home for ever ... so do try to avoid something similar if you can.

I think it?s a good thing that you?re back at work tomorrow. I?m a believer in routine and a believer in garnering support during hard times from every corner, including work. The hardest thing is telling people but then, you?ve done nothing wrong so remember:

  • it?s his loss;
  • it?s his shame;
  • he will regret it;
  • he is an Entitled Little Tosser.

Good luck tomorrow at work. Mascara, lippy and a deep breath will see you through. Oh and I hope there's plenty of room in your office because the MN crew will be there with you, we really will x

midwife99 · 10/04/2012 00:36

Brilliant as ever B&A!! Good luck tomorrow we'll be thinking of you Cwtchy!! Smile

toomuchmonthatendofthemoney · 10/04/2012 20:21

How did it go, cwtchy? I hope it was ok. You are probably knackered so i hope you get some good sleep before the kids come back.

Keep going.

BeforeAndAfter · 11/04/2012 23:11

Hi Cwtchy

I hope the week's going OK or at least as well as it can. I think you've got the bairns back tonight which will be good.

Take care.

B&A x

cwtchy · 12/04/2012 00:20

Hi all! I have my Babans back with me today which is great. They had a lovely time away. Upon putting youngest DC to bed however, we discovered the cat had decided to piss all over his bed at some point. (why? Why the BED?). So he is in with me tonight. Not altogether a bad thing :)

Work is going ok, but it's almost impossible to concentrate. I'll just have to persevere with that though. I met with the staff counsellor this week; he was great, very experienced and has given me loads of useful practical info to start with.

My feelings are a bit all over the place really. I feel as if I've been sleepwalking the last year or so, and as if recent events have flicked a switch and the old me is back. I'm actually feeling things again! Things must have been pretty bad. What I can't work out yet is what I'm feeling about H. I'm oddly finding him more attractive than ever, and can see now that we both needed a jolt to get out of the rut we were in. Tonight, whether he ever comes back or not, I feel like he's done me a favour! I may change my mind tomorrow though Smile

OP posts:
midwife99 · 12/04/2012 08:56

You're bound to be all over the place & apparently during the divorce process it's really common for there to be a sudden old times sake fuck so you fancying him at the moment is normal I reckon. Whether you want to act on it in the circumstances is another matter!! It probably wouldn't help you get over him though?

AnyFucker · 12/04/2012 18:37

My cat once poo'ed all over my pillow when I was pregnant.

It's normal I think to see what you originally saw in someone. I don't recommend you acting on that itch though. A lot of water under the bridge since then !

Keep a lid on that libido, and save it for someone who appreciates it.

ToothbrushThief · 12/04/2012 19:15

Someone else suggesting you are pregnany cwtchy Wink

I think your feelings are very normal. It's interesting how you are feeling things again. That suggests things haven't been good for a long time.

I felt the same way about my ex initially. I was remembering the 'early days'. Then I went through a stage of revulsion towards him. I'm back to pretty neutral at the moment. Think of it as a stage to pass through

ToothbrushThief · 12/04/2012 19:15

My dog peed on my bed once. I didn't kill him but considered it

AnyFucker · 12/04/2012 19:22

no ! I never suggested cwtchy was pg ! Grin

I was illustrating how wierd cats are

and yes, he barely got by with his life, the furry little fuck

cwtchy · 12/04/2012 21:26

Ha. Sounds like something out of Closer magazine..." my cat told me I was pregnant!" . A previous cat went through a phase of peeing in the bed whilst me and H were in it. I am not in possession of that cat or that bed now Grin.

I am definitely feeling free, I suppose I couldn't admit it for the first few days, but the feeling is there. That could be because this is the most amount of child free time I have had since I was, er, child free. As Toothbrush says though, I will need to keep my feelings in check and await the "revulsion" phase.

I'm going to go and dye my hair dark brown now! It's highlighted at the moment. Yes I am a walking cliche, I know...

OP posts:
BeforeAndAfter · 12/04/2012 22:37

Half the battle is admitting stuff to yourself. The stuff that you keep bottled up, hoping it will go away, or you convince yourself it's borne out of frustration with something else, anything but admitting that, actually, being with the same partner for a long time does get you in a rut and does end up being dull UNLESS you are both consciously working at the relationship, which is pretty rare.

It's sounding like you're in a good place Cwtchy, well maybe good's not the right word, but you're in a better place than you were and I love that you have a sense of "finding the old me".

Oh, and speaking as someone with a libido that just seems to take me over sometimes, if you do find yourself succumbing to H's charms then for god's sake make sure you throw him out once you've finished with him! Stay in charge! Better still stay away but that's easier said than done in the early days ...

cwtchy · 12/04/2012 23:37

I think I am in a better place than I was, B&A. Its odd that things can change in my head so quickly. How long feeling slightly better will last, I don't know..

H doesn't appear to want to come anywhere near me, so the state of my libido is probably inconsequential! I have just dyed my hair fecking BLACK, so chances are nobody else will be interested for a while either.

OP posts:
BeforeAndAfter · 13/04/2012 00:01

So is the new you going all goth with DMs ready to stomp down hard on certain toes? Grin

Black can be good - subject to skin tone! Me? I did one shade up from black, years ago. I'm pale, not as in alabaster pale but slightly prone to blotchy skin and zits pale. My skin tone does not work with black hair!!

midwife99 · 13/04/2012 09:07

Yeah scare the bastard I should! Black eyeliner & red lipstick should add to the effect!! Wink

midwife99 · 13/04/2012 09:09

Also it sounds like the cat is having a divorce too!! Or will be if it keeps pissing in beds!!

cwtchy · 14/04/2012 21:01

My hair has faded slightly and I quite like it now.

H and I are taking the DCs swimming tomorrow Hmm. We are meeting him there, taking one child each into the changing rooms, and then I think he will take them out for lunch afterwards so I get some time on my own. The DCs are sooo excited, so it will be worth the gritting of teeth I think.

I found out today he has spent quite a few nights sleeping in his car. I'm so upset to hear that, as obviously I still care for him. I have to remember though that he is also spending some nights with OW.

As the days go on now, I'm almost glad this has happened. Something had to change, I've finally had to admit to myself that neither of us were happy. I have also been thinking...if it had been me who had been away with work and I had clicked with someone, could I honestly say I would have acted completely innocently? I really don't think I would have :(

I think the OW was just a symptom of the problems we had. It's funny that I would never have thought I could be thinking these thoughts a few weeks ago. I just couldn't see what was going on.

OP posts:
Dozer · 14/04/2012 21:34

Cwytchy, recently you seem to be wavering and falling for the "he cheated because the relationship was unhappy, he met someone and couldn't help himself, because I wasn't good enough" myths.

Spending time with him with DCs, and getting them excited about it is not a good plan. They are two and four, too young to get excited unless adults gee them up. And do-able for one of you alone to take them - many of my friends and their partners do this. Why torture yourself and confuse the DC?

How do you know he slept in the car, from him? More crocodile tears IMO. And he is still seeing OW.

Know this is harsh, if you want to have him back it's your life. am Sad because your DH's actions have been and continue to be shoddy, selfish, cruel and manipulative. He clearly thinks he can have you back anytime.

cwtchy · 14/04/2012 22:52

Thanks, Dozer. You're right on all counts, of course.

It's so hard to work things out in my head. I'm glad I can type out what I'm thinking here before I release it to anyone in RL, especially H! I guess I don't want to believe he can act in this way, and that I married such an Entitled Little Tosser.

OP posts:
BeforeAndAfter · 15/04/2012 02:31

The way I see it, I?m divorcing a Twunt and you are living apart from an ELT. I don?t think that either of us married those men though; we married the men we fell in love with but for me, at least, that version of my H doesn?t exist anymore. For whatever reason, they morphed away from being lovely Hs and now we only get to see the Twunt and ELT persona.

The thing is all relationships go ?stale?; that?s normal. The trick is that you have two people willing to work at it and to keep it alive. Twunt was like that once. We had date nights, to make sure we actually remembered to have sex Confused, to have fun and keep the friendship alive. He stopped working at the relationship, probably about 18 months before we split up and I got complacent so didn?t put much effort into the relationship.

I think all parties to a relationship have a part to play in its breakdown but if one party chooses to deal with that by having an affair rather than talking or bailing out honestly then that is 100% on their shoulders, not ours. I can understand that he strayed, I can understand the urge to shag someone else but I can't understand 9 months of lies and living a double life. How a man can shuttle between beds and loving arms and not breakdown with guilt still disgusts me today.

In terms of your plans for Sunday I don?t really get the swimming together bit. I?m worried that you?re setting yourself up for a heap of rejection and hurt and agree with Dozer.

As for ELT sleeping in the car, well he didn?t think through what woold happen two or three steps along from his deed, did he? What exactly did your H expect you to do when he told you that he didn?t love you anymore and didn?t want to be with you? Did he really think you were going to plump up the pillows on the spare bed and let him live at the house? If he did then that should make you angry because he was taking you for a mug and showing little regard for you. If he really is sleeping in the car then he must be mightily peeved at OW for not letting him stay there, even if he won?t admit it right now. That's a good thing.

Just wondering - have you worked out what you would say if he asked to come back home and be your husband again?

ToothbrushThief · 15/04/2012 07:59

I loved my ex when I married him. He was a lovely man. He changed. I couldn't accept that and worked at the marriage until I nearly had a breakdown. The harder I worked the more entitled he became. It was doomed.

It needed two to work and I pondered why he couldn't. Pondering, left me convinced he was depressed, confused, it was a poor family background, circumstances at work, his grief, inadequacy (which wasn't his fault)....you name it and I excused it.

I felt sorry for him because he wasn't happy. (At one point my ex slept in a van) It broke my heart because I loved and wanted to care for him.

The key thing in this ? All my attention was focused on making him ok, worrying about him, wondering what I had done to upset him, drive him away, worrying that our children had drained his life of energy and joy and I needed to put that back.

So busy was I obsessing over this issues that I missed the blindingly obvious bit that had he felt the same way as I did, he'd have only needed to put 5% of that effort into our marriage and we'd be happily married now. I forgot to look after me and he never even once considered it (maybe a throw away comment with a caring look... are you ok?? ). His actions spoke far more, but I hooked and hung onto the throwaway remark convincing myself he wanted me really, he wanted his family, it was just he couldn't because..... back into the cycle of blaming myself....

I wanted my happy marriage back so much that I took several long years to accept it was over. I regret that and will regret that on my death bed. My children suffered in that time. In the family we had a priority scale of
TOP - ELT (he jumped and the whole family jumped)

His family
DC
Dog

I was not even on the scale

I have been separated 3 years and am moving on very well. One little thing that I avoid because it drags me back into that destructive phase of my life? Contact with him. I limit it as much as I can because even after all this time he still has the capacity to make me worry about himself and forget that I deserve a happy life.

cwtchy · 15/04/2012 09:49

Thanks, B&A and Toothbrush. Those posts are really helpful to me.

As for the swimming thing today, I only agreed because we had been taking them together every Sunday until this happened, and our pool has a 1:1 ratio for kids under 5. I can see its a bad idea though, and will have to find someone else to take them with me from now on. I just thought it would be nice for the DCs to be with both of us.

B&A, if he asked to come back today, I could only say no. He's not going to though, he is not looking to save this marriage, is he? Like Toothbrush says, I am the one thinking about all of this, he is the one moving on and sleeping in someone else's bed. Or his car, probably because he is lying to OW as well because he doesnt want to admit what a mess he has made of everything. I need to put myself first now.

OP posts:
sternface · 15/04/2012 10:50

cwtchy I just caught up with this thread (I posted in the early days)

I think you're making the classic error of thinking that the unhappiness in your marriage pre-dated the affair. There've been lots of posts since I was last on here and I may have missed it, but do you know yet when this affair started or who the woman is and when he met her?

If not, logic should tell you that it started a long time ago, because even the stupidest husband and father wouldn't ditch his marriage within a few weeks or even months of meeting someone new. I think I said as much earlier in the thread, but affairs like this always have a build-up and it's my guess that your marriage problems neatly coincided with him clapping eyes on the OW.

During that build-up and during the affair itself, of course your marriage was unhappy. How could it not be? But that unhappiness was manufactured by him. Yes, during that period if you'd met someone who was treating you like a human being and not the shit on his shoe, you could have responded.
But I reckon you wouldn't have done so before his affair was a possibility, because he would have been behaving very differently before he met the woman and you would have felt that all was well in your world and your marriage, apart from the normal strain that occurs when you've got young children.

Dozer · 15/04/2012 12:20

Hope today goes OK.

Maybe he can find another pool, or a lesson for the eldest while he takes the youngest, or they can find another fun activity to do, park, soft play or whatever.

A few posts back you mentioned finding him v physically attractive. Think that's quite common, have experienced it after the end of two relationships where OW were involved, maybe is weird fight-or-flight or competitive thing. Had it the most with an ex who had treated me terribly and it'd been a completely toxic relationship, my head knew that, but took a time before my heart / body caught up! Was easier as no DC and could avoid him!

On reflection, think I did what B&A, toothbrush and others did, and spent lots of time and energy trying to make men happy and worrying why they weren't, trying to change etc. And not on dealing with my own unhappiness.

Have been careful ever since not to put people above me in my own head iyswim?

fiventhree · 15/04/2012 13:23

I second what others have said about when the relationship may have changed.

I have stayed with my h, and whilst he doesnt exactly say that he was deliberately difficult during that time, he does admit to distancing himself and withdrawing during that phase in order to feel Ok about what he was doing. Many of our problems stemmed from that, and the only other one, that he said I could be 'controlling', actually stemmed from my attempts to get him to refocus a bit of his attention a away from work to family/me- and it was stress from that same over-work which created the conditions where OW looked attractive.

So dont blame yourself.

It is good in fact that he is sleeping in the car and having a tough time- because the best lessons which life teaches to us all are the hardest ones.