Need clarification re husband and I was asleep

[beautifulrelease]

So I've been reading the 3 panda's thread and have tried to ring rape crisis just for a bit of clarification. Have namechanged today but I have posted on the other thread a few times (I'm not curiousgeorgie).

Not as serious as three pandas situation but it's still bothering me. I have frequently woken up to find my husband touching me up, breasts, mastarbating me, no penetration. I have asked him not to but he falls back to sleep and carries on.

I have woken up to find him 'in me' but this was very early days in my relationship and he was my 1st and only sexual relationship so I thought maybe this is what you do so I let him carry on.

I have asked him to stop waking me in the night but he says he's asleep, I have little ones so sleep is precious and I still have nightmares about previous abuse and waking up to be groped after dreaming about it is quite alarming!

Have talked this through with someone who I feel I can trust and she says that my DH and sex aren't the issue, it's my past getting in the way of having a healthy sexual relationship. Please can you help me clear this up as I'm very confused whether being pissed off with him is right or not? Thank you lovelies x

Looking at the evidence of what Beautiful has said SGB about him staying on his computer until late at night and after his wife has gone to sleep, after which he then violates her, it is likely to be porn and religion that are behind this, but not masturbation. I think this man watches porn and then makes use of his wife. Because he doesn't 'technically' masturbate, his utter hypocrisy allows him to think he's faithful to the rules of his church.

I think his computer is full of rape porn.

Oh love . You deserve to be heard and listened to, the Bible says you are worth more than rubies. The fact that you didn't stop him isn't irrelevant, it's not unusual and it doesn't make what he is doing ok.

i really really appreciate how outrageous the abuse of religion is in these situations. i know better than anyone. really.

can i suggest we be careful though? the OP has described herself as "faithful", i.e. being very very committed to her beliefs. pointing to religion as the key problem is going to alienate her & cause her to defend her beliefs... thereby entrenching her into her position and making her less likely to be able to see that what's happening to her is wrong.

she speaks a different "language" to what most secular-ist/atheist/not-religious people do, but healthy words still exist in that language, and (i think) we should try to speak her language [or at least be sensitive to it] rather than try to tell her she should abandon it altogether based on our say-so alone. (i hope that make sense)

i'm honestly speaking from bitter experience here, and not trying to piss anyone off

Religion doesn't cause abuse. Abusers can & do abuse religion as a smokescreen and an excuse, but that's not the religion's fault. Abusers frequently abuse education, medical care and the law the same way, too. The abuser's 'tools' are not responsible for his abuse.

Are you in a church where women are told to submit to their husbands beautiful?

i also agree that your husband is lying when he claims to be asleep. He's doing it on purpose.

DH is saying 'I constantly push him away and he isn't always looking for sex, I interpret him that way'

If he has disrespected your body several times, even from the beginning of the relationship, it's not surprising that you push him away.

Not that not wanting sex is an excuse, mind you.

My ex didn't rape me, or tried it on when I was asleep, but he was too pushy and his "affections" were more often than not for sex only. He would always try to "grab" more than he was "allowed".
In fact, when he became violent, it was because I had refused sex, effectively.
In my mind I consider that as attempted rape.
Only, I was never one to tolerate such behaviour.
Not that it mattered, because he wasn't bothered (as yours) or repentant (as yours) and never got better (as yours).
I was at fault for not wanting sex, but him being pushy and effectively "telling" me we would have sex would really put me off.
So, given his behaviour, I'm not surprised you are off sex.

And your H should not making excuses (particularly blaming you) for his supposed behaviour once asleep.

If I was, say, violent towards my partner when asleep I'd make sure I wouldn't do it. Possibly move beds.

Religion should not be an excuse for abuse and should not be a reason for staying and being abused.
I'm a catholic "marriage is for life" sort of person, but I still had to leave H, as difficult as it was to leave him, and it still feels odd to be separated in the catholic community. However, anyone who would tell me to stay with him would not deserve my time of day.

This "submit to husband" thing is supposed to mean that, if the couple can't agree on a decision, the H should have the last word. There's also a bunch of stuff in there about respect and being equal-but-different. (Don't know the verse reference.) Churches certainly do not advocate wives being doormats. Or abuse victims.

Taking a woman's own will out of her power and handing it over to a man is abusive, especially when you're telling the woman that it's what god wants. Who can argue with god.

It's rare that I come out fighting from the churchly side
But I don't like to see other people's perfectly good value systems being misrepresented as malign. Especially when the perfectly good value system belongs to a vulnerable OP.

I am an atheist. That means I don't believe in god, not that I can't respect a culture which promotes peace, tolerance, respect and kindness.

OP is a christian; she dedicates her life to those values. I respect that. I think it's disrespectful to trash her culture on her own thread.

OP, I ask this in all gentleness; why is masturbation a sin but doing this to your wife acceptable? And he IS masturbating; he is wanking using your body. His actions are telling you that you are less than a dirty spunk rag to him. I am a Militant Atheist but I'll tell you one thing I do know about God - if there is a deity, He/She/It/Them would utterly condemn what your husband is doing to you. Sweetheart, don't let yourself be sexually assaulted and raped by the person who's supposed to cherish, honour and protect you (as is the usual Christian model) the most in the world just because the two of you mistakenly believe that a book written a few thousand years ago says it's okay. He's using religion as an excuse. If he wants to have sex but you don't and he's stupid enough to choose not to masturbate, then the answer is: he doesn't get sex. Tough. I'd like to be a millionaire but it doesn't give me the right to rob a bank.

Please, please, listen to what your gut is telling you. You might choose to hear it as the voice of God or Jesus. That voice is telling you that this is wrong. If you are a true believer, you will not call Him a liar, will you?

Garlic, obviously the OP respects those values, but her H doesn't.

He is abusing her and their religion.

I think that's what people are saying.

On the submission issue, if a H has the last word, then there's no possible disagreement and women end up as doormats. Particularly when such religions are male dominated and some of those males are abusers. They chose or even start those religions, or sects, because they allow them to abuse.

OP respects those values, but her H doesn't. He is abusing her and their religion.

YY, exactly :(

Wrt to the rest Lueji, there's a long discussion to be had (as it often is on here) about patriarchy and religions ... as there is about patriarchy and just about everything! But that "submit" line is over-quoted without the rich context around it. Several practising christians have posted to this thread, confirming that abuse is never acceptable. A husband is supposed to love his wife as he loves god, which kind of rules out sexual assault as well as domineering behaviour.

"submit to husband" has a complementary teaching without which it is void.

a xian man can't expect his wife to submit to him UNLESS he shows and practices extreme, sacrificial humility to her, and puts her needs first. ahead of his own, ahead of all other things.

a good christian man walks naked through the streets for his wife before he asks her to trust his judgement ahead of his own. and when he gets something wrong, makes the wrong decision when she trusted him, he says sorry, asks her forgiveness and searches his soul to prevent the same thing happening again.

when those two complementary elements don't exist (man's humility and self-sacrifice, woman's submission -- they are the same thing in practice btw), the marriage is considered untenable.

christian marriage is a balance of two people sacrificing their autonomy to one another. it sounds weird to a secular ear, but when it works, it works and it is a beautiful thing. it's a model for non-violence and acceptance. the marriage is a kind of meditation practice, not simply a social unit.

there is something beautiful available to the OP within her culture and spirituality. i want to support her in finding that beautiful thing.

I would have thought he would be more shocked if he was genuinely asleep? As in, expressing shock etc, not just 'oh I was asleep' & he would be trying to find a solution to it, because it obviously upset & distresses you!

You have asked home to stop before & he hasn't. Regardless of what other couples do, this is not your level of normal, so something needs to happen. At the very least he is abusing your trust & disregarding your feelings!

agree with differentname

OP, why do you think he has just made excuses and basically brushed you off? don't you think that shows he KNOWS he's doing something wrong? know what i mean?

if he was really doing it in his sleep, he would say "OMG I am so sorry, that must make you feel awful! Shall we set you up in a different bed so you don't have to worry about it anymore?"

think about what a reasonable person would say if they realised they were doing something in their sleep that scared their spouse, made them uncomfortable.

he is not treating you reasonably OP.

OIK have you read biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Deuteronomy%2022.28-29. It take a different view on marriage from yours.

OP he's a wanker, ditch him.

Beautiful, you say that you are getting a type of counselling from Church Elders. In standard, non-faith based couples counselling, it is very very rare that a couple would be seen where there is abuse taking place so your Elders are going against the evidence of what is helpful.

Counselling is about helping communication, it is not about getting one partner to stop sexually assualting the other. He has been given the opportunity to understand that you do not like or want this and he is refusing to act within the law. Counselling cannot help here. Perhaps he will respect the Elders when told not to do it, it sounds like that is your only hope as you feel unable to leave whatever he does.

I did once have a partner who did sexual things to me in his sleep, he had all sorts of acting out sleep behaviours and had had them since he was a small child. However, I would wake him and he would stop - there is no way your H is suffering from this I would say. Even though his eyes were open when he did these things (and they were rarely sexual, it could be acting out anything) there was a sort of glazed look that showed he was asleep. We knew acting out was worse when he was stressed and at those times we chose to sleep separately and he never blamed me, he took responsibility. The only way to stop this we were told was to take heavy sleeping medication. I have a relation with sleep aponea and they actually are usually light sleeping due to the aponeas waking them so even less likely they would act out in their sleep as they wake so easily.

Having said that, very sadly, your husband forced sex on you before you were ready and at a time when your religion prohibits it (pre marriage), the sleep stuff is a real red herring.

If your church preaches that you must stay with a man who hurts you, who breaks the law by sexually assaulting you, and who has always been a hypocrite as he forced sex on you before marriage, I'm sorry but your church is dangerous to human well-being and surely you could find a better church to belong to?

Morning me and the DH had a long talk last night and I think it boils down to my DH not being able to empathise. He is basically looking to me for his own sense of worth etc and he is majorly messing up our relationship by not exerting self-control .

I have been straight with him and told him that on a daily basis I think about being with someone else, someone who could cherish me enough to put my feelings first but I will never ever divorce him.

I do not think he raped me, ever. I do believe ( and you might not get this) that the crux of his problems is that he professes to be something he is not and he knows it. I told him if he wants a Christian marriage to work then he needs to start leading our family and going to Jesus for his sense of self/ worth. It's what I do and although you might think that it hasn't helped me with this situation, I definitely think I'm stronger than him right now.

I will see how he is this morning and thank you ladies c

Hi again, I think I'm going to leave this thread for a bit and get some advice as DH is no further forward this morning and I know I can't do this anymore x

Hi beautiful

How are you feeling right now?

Can you make sure you talk to someone outside your community as well as within? If you're not comfortable calling Rape Crisis you could ring Samaritans.

Oh my love, you have to do what you need to do.

I'll be praying for you both that you will find a way through this.

My thoughts are with you.

So if they can't agree he gets the last word? That means he always gets the last word doesn't it? She either agrees with him or he ignores her opinion.

Lovely! And fuck that!

Im also not sure that a defence of 'Im looking to my wife for my self worth' or 'Im pretending to be something Im not' would stand up in court as a defence.

You obviously have a certain view point due to your religion which i am unlikely to ever agree with, but you are asking a man to be stronger to lead your family when he doesn't even have the strength or understanding to respect his wifes body or to stop when she clearly says too.

You and your religion give this man so much power over you but i don't feel he deserves it. He had sex with you before marriage when you had been saving yourself. He didn't even ask your permission, just took it from you! That's awful.

Apart from being a man in what way does he qualify as being good enough to lead your family? Because Im not seeing much.

Can i ask. Were you abused within your church?

Beautiful, you're going to have to get yourself away from this idea that you have to submit to a man within a christian marriage. Marriage is a man made insititution, which was designed by men to subjugate women. What your husband is doing to you was only made illegal twenty years ago. That's what men made marriage for - so they could own women and do what they liked to them.

I've just read another of your threads and you're self-harming. I'm very sorry to bring it up here but these things are connected. This is your real self telling you you can't stand this situation and you need to get away. You need to look inside yourself for guidance not to outside parties like church elders or your husband.

In 2012 there is no reason for a woman to be submitting to man in marriage and being raped or assaulted by him. There are options, please think about taking them.