Support thread for those in Emotionally abusive relationships number 7

[foolonthehill]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Financial abuse Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans ? He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out ? You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.

Thanks all for your strength!

He has said that if he has to move out (bear in mind we were talking about for a short spell at this point, so I could "breathe" -or as Arthritic has put it so well with her analogy about the stage) then we need to tell our children immediately as he doesn't want them thinking he's abandoned them. He's using them to bully me into doing what he wants. I think he's going to force my hand in this situation. If he won't move out then I will have to- with the children- and that will be it. Over. But I am scared that he will just take them back. Pick them up from school or something. And how do I deal with that?

Does anyone know how do I go about getting a court order for residency?

Arth We have separate bank accounts anyway, with a joint account for monthly bills that are on direct debit, because he refuses to pool our finances. So at least I don't have to worry about that.

This is an awful thing to admit but I don't want him to change his behaviour now. I don't want him to become remorseful and full of regret and apology, or to acknowledge that he's been unkind because its got to the point where I don't think I love him enough any more to want to work things out even if we could. :(

Wobbly yes it was that in part. I did spend too on myself, but I don't think this was unreasonable to unreasonable levels and would certainly have been paid off by now (if not years back)

And no he is not paying half the debt! Ha! The very thought! The fact that he had quite high debts, (various car purchases) but we agreed that I would work part time (just) to be there for the children so he could pursue his career and maximise his earning potential, just means that he has had the opportunity to pay his off easily whereas my earning potential has hit the floor in comparison.

EW I had to answer your musing:

Have a lot on my mind. What if its me being unreasonable, and really the problem is that we have just drifted along and now I don't want to drift/put any more effort into improving our relationship, so he is the "wronged" party? That he hasn't done anything unreasonable at all really, nothing thats worth kicking him out over? I know it shouldnt matter what the reason is for being unhappy, that if things are this miserable then I should "allow" myself the right to divorce him, but it feels so messed up. I feel like I'm badmouthing him when I talk to friends about whether or not our relationship sounds "fair", so I just dont anymore and whilst on here we are all so so supportive (I couldnt get through this without you here) I am aware that we are so attuned to seeing our husbands as emotionally abusive that we might have a bit of a skewed world view.

Lundy Bancroft replies to the question: DO I SIMPLY EXPECT TOO MUCH FROM A RELATIONSHIP?

It's possible but, frankly, we doubt it. Women are more likely to deman too little than too much;... 'women are grateful for getting ten percent of what they deserve'. [these are the things that are bottom line]:
You must be treated with respect No partner should call you names, make fn of you, roll his eyes at you in an argument, humiliate you, or mock you. Period. It does't matter if he's had a bad day or a bad decade, if he's drunk, if he's under tremendous financial stress, if he's furious at you, or if he feels you you were disrespecting him. There's simply no excuse.
You must feel safe ... or if he behaves in ways that lead you to have sexual contact with him that you don't want to, you are not in a safe relationship. ...
You should feel loved the great majority of the time. ... And even during hard times, your partner should be capable of finding ways to get the message across to you that you are valued and appreciated... If the times when you feel loved are few and far between, and if your partner completely changes his attitude toward you anytime things aren't going his way, you deserve better.
Your relationship should create far more opportunities than it takes away. [Support and encouragement. Financial sharing better than if you were single]
You should have passion and intimacy* [non destructive men don't lose their desire for their wives, don't have affairs these are immature views of relationships and sexuality]
You should feel seen. Does your partner really know you? Does he like you? Does he understand your dreams and ambitions? Does he feel as though he's on your team in life, that he's got your back? Does he value what you give to the world? Is he a good friend to you?

... this list describes the minimum a relationship should have...

[Should I stay or should I go?]

Hi EW and Wobbly I am in the unfortunate position of FWH having gone completely off the rails. There is no way even he could defend his behaviour. And TBF he hasn't. I can do big.
However, I can also do 'small' which is what he has gone back to now he is 'Mr Nice'. I will give an example from the Friday before last. FWH insisted on coming with me to pick up one of the DCs. He then dragged us to buy a cartridge for the home printer. After having a strop in the shop and going on and on about how he needed to print a Very Important Document for his- work. We got home and when I had set up the printer and I had printed his very important document, he started going on about how he had just spent an hour going out to buy me a cartridge for my_ printer- .
Now that is, indeed, small - but just how fucked up is that kind of reasoning intended to make the recipient?

I feel for you, cling onto 5th april!

Sorry there was more to that...

Oh Arth what a complete and utter

And you know what, if there was a smidgen of recognition from the FWH's that such stuff is unreasonable, and it didn't happen all the bloody time it could even be quite endearing. We are all only human after all.

Wobbly- thanks for that. I so want to get the Lundy book (only recently realised to my that he is a man!!!!!) but if H realises I am reading it he will flip. At the moment I am trying hard to keep things as calm as I can (apart from todays happenings, a blip i suppose ) as I can't cope with having to think about what he wants out of this. My brian is fried.

Ha! Meant my brain is fried, not my brian! Poor brian, he's done nothing wrong.

but if H realises I am reading it he will flip.

How? How does that affect you?

If he flips... that's MORE reason to read it... Tell him as such too.

He has no business telling you anything. LET him flip. If he goes too OTT, call the police. Simple as that. STart getting this shit documented. It may help with getting occupation orders where you can kick him out of the house by law...

Arthritic... Oh what fresh hell! a row with a FWH AND issues with a printer!

My printer is my most hated appliance, it's the ONE thing that gets me swearing every time it needs toner (£££ & it then won't USE the flaming ink) It's a Lexmark All in One, but seeing as it rarely faxes, now has ISHOOS with scanning and won't scan to the network, and now it would seem printing is beneath it. I have renamed the bastard the Lexmark Bugger-All-in-One.

That all stops today though... shiny new printer awaiting installation... I am going to put the Lexmark in a SKIP!

The main way of dealing with these dickheads (I'm back to the supposedly HUMAN sources of our irritation here) is to stick to the truth, to correct them when they blame us, to say NO, that's not true, it was ...... Coolly, calmly, and with a healthy dollop of ennui if you can muster it... If not, substitute light sarcasm with a hint of contempt.

Don't let the bastards (or their printers) grind you down...

What Hissy says. They NO LONGER get to control.

Read your book, with calm. State your position respectfully, with calm.

Not being sidetracked from either thing.

Has he ever attacked you before? Or is it the bad feeling you get (short-circuiting people pleasing programme)?

My lundy book is at my sisters am picking it up tomorrow.

Use this phrase:

"H, you lost the right to control me/tell me what to do/say/read/wear the day you did "

He will say I did it cos YOU did X...

You say, Yep, that's what ALL the books on Abusers say you would say....

I used to say to my Ex, you are so mean/abusive/evil, they even write books about having to deal with people like you.... LOOK! It used to really upset him [diddums]

Also I find the insults they use against us are the ones that hurt them the most too, so when you are braver, use them and watch how it disarms them.

That is the final ramming it home stage though....

"This is an awful thing to admit but I don't want him to change his behaviour now. I don't want him to become remorseful and full of regret and apology, or to acknowledge that he's been unkind because its got to the point where I don't think I love him enough any more to want to work things out even if we could"

EW this what has happened to me. He is (at the the moment) only slipping up slightly - moaning about what biscuits I buy becuase he doesnt like them etc He is doing nothing that I could "justify" ending things for. It feels like relief because things have been so much worse, but on the flip side its not because I have been worn down to the point where my love has died a long time ago and it has just made me more confused.

Can I add 'me too me too!'?? Dh is not doing anythin truly terrible atm but I want him to so I can say that's it its over!
Almost cried at the Lundy description of a relationship - I don't think I could tick off one thing on that list!

I don't want my h to improve either

IWBF...don't worry, he'll be back to normal in the blink of an eye...and then he will be worse...because it isn't working.

Just getting a little bit better to keep you there doesn't cut it. Unless he agrees that he has a real problem that he needs serious directive help to fix he's not going to mend.

here is a..."Check list for assessing change in abusive men"

? Admitting fully to what he has done
? Stopping excuses
? Stopping all blaming of her
? Making amends
? Accepting responsibility (recognizing that abuse is a choice)
? Identifying patterns of controlling behavior, admitting their wrongness
? Identifying the attitudes that drive his abuse
? Accepting that overcoming abusiveness will be a decades-long process, not declaring himself cured
? Not starting to say, ?so now it?s your turn to do your work?, not using change as a bargaining chip
? Not demanding credit for improvements he has made
? Not treating improvements as chips or vouchers to be spent on occasional acts of abuse (e.g. ?I haven?t done anything like this in a long time, so why are you making such a big deal about it??)
? Developing respectful, kind, supportive behaviors
? Carrying his weight
? Sharing power
? Changing how he is in highly heated conflicts
? Changing how he responds to his partner?s (or former partner?s) anger and grievances
? Changing his parenting
? Changing his treatment of her as a parent
? Changing his attitudes towards females in general
? Accepting the consequences of his actions (including not feeling sorry for himself about those consequences, and not blaming her or the children for them)

how many do your NSDP's tick

I've got a solid total of none so far (5 months)

None here either!

Well I'm still here - but I'm fighting back, as it were. Challenging him on little things, letting him know I'm keeping an eye on his behaviour. He, to his credit, has taken on board some things I said, but we had a big crisis talk on Sunday night and despite being incredibly upset I still marvelled at the ways he tried to manipulate me into staying (he told me if we split up I'd have to tell his children and his mother, because he wasn't going to. I told him I'd do no such thing (and I bloody wouldn't either, for the record). I suppose some of it worked, because I am still here, but I still feel like it was my choice, naive as that may be. I showed him that my bag was packed and I was in two minds whether to leave without telling him but thought he deserved to hear it face-to-face. He admitted that he'd been feeling resentful about a lot of things in his life and had directed it at me, which was out of order. Yes! It was! He also said he was losing any self-confidence he once had because his health and fitness is declining and as a farmer he relies on his physical strength. Lingering health problems and resultant chronic pain aren't helping. But none of that is my doing and so no need to take it out on me.

He'll be spending a few nights a week at his other base and I think this will make a big difference because I'll not feel guilty for doing all the things I love doing in the evenings (such as doing sweet FA, eating all the food I love and so on). I am also making plans for myself, applying for jobs just far enough away that I'd have to move, looking into working abroad, all of that sort of thing. Who knows what will happen but I am starting to make changes.

Oh EW you sound SO like me a few months ago (and even NOW.)

"I feel like someone is who is putting on a cold mean face because they don't care and is using the suggestion of EA to try and justify it internally."

I think this all the time. ALL THE TIME. I feel like a fraud for being here. Although I KNOW that DH did all the Bad Things, sometimes I think that he just didn't realise or was just inadequate. BUT THEY STILL DID THE BAD THINGS. Someone who is NICE and LOVES YOU will not do the bad things.

Putting stuff in writing - my DH made me do this too. I agreed to an email he wrote which contained about 15 "clauses" of things we would not do for six months. Including not moving in with Nice Boy, not having things of Nice Boy's around my house, not introducing family/the children to Nice Boy, submitting receipts to XH for everything I have spent, how it is my decision to move out and end the marriage, etc etc. (Bear in mind that at the time I had not had ANY sort of physical relationship with Nice Boy, DH just knew that he "made me feel safe" and was the trigger that made me question why my HUSBAND made me feel THREATENED.)

At the time I thought that him asking me to put everything in writing was perfectly reasonable behaviour. OMG. It is MADNESS.

"This is an awful thing to admit but I don't want him to change his behaviour now."

I know, of COURSE you don't. You have DOUBTS which are normal - partly because he has made you think that perhaps you are BONKERS. You are not. My XH is now as sweet as pie and doing all he can to help me - although sometimes I still shake with fear when I see him. That's not NORMAL!!

"I so want to get the Lundy book ... but if H realises I am reading it he will flip."

Of COURSE HE WILL. Because he won't ever accept that he is That Man. He will just use it as evidence that it's YOU that has lost the plot and are now imagining things, when he is really lovely and kind and loves you.

At few months ago, I was talking to a friend about my marriage and she said: "At the end of the day, you will do what you want to do." And I felt SO RELIEVED. Because I knew that what I wanted to do was LEAVE. And I did.

YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO END THIS RELATIONSHIP WHENEVER YOU WANT.

xxx

Iwbf- I know that feeling... I was explaining to my friend that it's like do much hurt and resentment has happened over the years that now there's this massive ball of it and I don't know how to break it down or where to start with it all?! It's the bloody constant grinding down I can't stand... Pick,pick fucking pick... "helpful" points, remarks.... The times I've not wanted sex and asked him to cuddle me and he's just turned his back on me like a whore . The fact he's hit me(and I've hit him) and when he gets angry I think he's going to punch me. Arrrrrrgggghhh!!!!! Then im so used to his crap that he came home from work and I "pulled a face" when I kissed him (I didn't it's because I asked if he had been to counselling) that he then talks and looks at me like complete shit... Utter shit. After I tried to remember what he had said and couldn't ?! He confuses me!!!!!! Makes me crazy
Also dont want him to change but do. I think it's that I don't believe he can? He bought ds1 DVD the other day and when it arrived it filled me with dread. I thought he had got me something... I even had to open it to prepare my fake "happy " face!!! So relieved when I saw Aristcats!
None of its right though... The worst is when we think WE are the horrible ones!!!

Thebighouse- I Want a nice boy!!!

.
EW...when fwits do/say things that hurt our feelings, and they keep doing/saying them, despite being told that is the effect they have, this is what I would call coffin nail syndrome. I warned fwit, that all these things were nails in the coffin of our marriage but he TOOK NO NOTICE. I am not talking about irritating things that annoy, but hurtful things, that are DESIGNED to make us feel stupid, ugly, unimportant etc. Eventually they kill all the love you had for them, and these are not the actions of someone who really loves you. People who really, healthily love you, do not want to hurt you like this.

Yes, Lundy's list is pure gold
Even FWH admits he can come up with nothing on it.
Although, since turning into Mr Nice, he has started very occasionally emptying the dishwasher. Do you think that counts as
?Carrying his weight
FWH doesn't mind me reading Lundy's books - he is not really interested in anything I do really :(

I want to get this book too!

Dh says that I take umbridge at little things when I shouldn't, for example dd was tired and screaming whilst I was changing her for bed. He shouted up the stairs "what are you doing to her?". That really pissed me off! He never changes her nor puts her to bed but if he thinks he can do better he's welcome to try! But that's just me being stroppy again, as usual!