to feel really threatened by my OH's dead fiancee?

[badabing123]

Feel horrible writing this but it's beginning to eat me up inside.

Am a late 30something who is in a 1.5yr rel with a man whose late fiancee passed away with the Big C while she was in her mid 30s.
We actually met not long after she's passed away (4 months) - I'd come out of a 10yr rel which had been abusive and very sad-making six months earlier. But I pulled myself together and got out and since then have worked on getting my self esteem back and my life on track.
I'm happy, for the most part I am.

There may be some who think we got together too quickly; maybe we did who knows, but it felt right and we've largely kept under the radar and moved at our own pace. It is what it is.

We have a good relationship. In many ways, both our experiences of 'loss' have given us an understanding and greater compassion, I suppose. Or at least a determination to want to grasp happiness when it comes along. We both want to build a future together and one that involves kids which, as I am in my late 30s, is in some ways something of a relief.

But - and you knew there was a but coming! - however good our relationship is (and there are times I am so happy that I can almost touch the happiness it's so tangible) I am just eaten away by the thought, the fear that however good our relationship it will never bear the same significance as that with his dead fiancee.

1- I am happy for him to continue a relationship with her family, im supportive of this
2- I'm ok with photo of her out on show (i wouldnt think of objecting, though I'm relieved it's now only 2 photos instead of the 7 on the living room shelf when we met)
3 - Ive been supportive of the charitable fundraising he did in her memory.

I am saying the above to make clear that I dont think I am a 'bad person'. I am fair. But I just wonder where I fit in - sometimes there is just no space for me.

Things I object to (and yes, HATE)
1/Her facebook page still up and replete with photos of them together, beaches at sunset, Paris etc etc. Getting friend suggestions with her photo. (nb there's no way I can ask to take this down, it's not my place to do so, but its tremendously hurtful to see this and realise that the affectionate gestures I thought were for me are just replicas of those he gave her)

2/OH telling me that her final request had been that he call his first daughter after her. I replied 'No way'. Not doing that at all. His retort was that he wouldnt push it, was only repeating what she had said.

3/OH wanting her family to come to our wedding. I'm not happy with this; it's our day. I don't want to be there thinking that there are people there wishing I was someone else.

4/Gravestone wording: this was somewhat of an unexpected surprise before xmas as I had assumed this had all been done. Im absolutely sick at the prospect that the wording is going to include wording such as 'fiancee of'. I dont know, Im just dreading the worst what it could be.He doesnt know; its anyone's guess at this point, but it makes me feel sick even thnking about it. Even in death, it feels, she is still 'the one'.

I'm a good person: Someone dying of cancer at such a young age; it's deeply sad. I am sorry for her, Im sorry for her family and I am very touched by how my OH stood by her and supported her during such a difficult time.

But I'm not a stand-in; Im not a replacement.
I have talked these fears through calmly with my OH, he says I am absolutely not, that it's about us building a future. That our pasts are our past.

Yes, I totally get this. I mean, it's not like I had an easy time either (violent ex, mental cruelty) but I got up and moved on. It's not unreasonable to want to be 1st choice. Im not trying to vanquish his past, or remove her memory (not at all) but I feel there is no space for me.

He says he loves me and wants to have a future together - but you know, these things make me feel awful!!! I feel so awful.

What I am scared of most is how his past is not his past; it is always going to be part of the present and the future. We were getting on so well before xmas and then whoosh! news about the gravestone and all the fears (still unresolved) about that immediately surface. It feels like something to do with his past is always going to 'pop up' out of the blue and make me feel sh*t.

AIBU to want to be 1st choice? When I told him I wanted to feel this, for him to tell me that - he said I was being 'ridiculous', no one says stuff like that'. He says I am the one he wants to build a future with, but faced with a %$££%£% Facebook page filled with reams of endless romantic photos and other things besides - I am scared that eg even if we got married and had kids - I could never 'be enough'. I would always be thinking he was wishing I was her.

I am scared that because of my age I am settling for something that say 10 yrs ago I would have walked away from. I love him - but I hate his past.
I can accept that it's his past but I loathe the way it's coming into my present and my future.

Even worse, it is making me dislike HER (ashamed to admit this). As much as I objectively feel sorry for her I cant bear the hold she has now, even in death. And you can't compete with someone who is dead.

At least with an ex who is alive you can b*tch about them - but you can't do that when someone is dead. You just have to ...eat it?

AIBU? or how can I possibly deal with this better (without resorting to the vodka bottle :) )?

In response to the person who said they have never seen fiance on a gravestone . . . i have seen it a lot. I often wander about reading the stones when i visit the grave of the person i lost. It only ever says beloved daughter sister fiance etc. never the relations names or fiances name.

Has he actually said his name will be on it or is this just something you are worried might happen?

Gravestones are a snapshot in time. The way things were when that person died. The fact that he had a new girlfriend is irrelevant to the fact that she had a fiance when she died.

I cant help but feel you are trying to possess him and make him all yours. Hence not wanting him mentioned on the stone. He is a person with a past not a possession.

Mediumorchid . . . i agree with your 9.50 post

I agree with Quintissentially about the immaturity of asking questions about what his ex was like in bed.

The more i read the more i think that although he is still going through the long process of grief that the problems here are your own issue. Perhaps you should try to deal with what is behind them.

I also agree with mishimimi that he shouldnt have to bitch about her to make you feel better.

Ooh cornflowers . . . solipsostic! Thats a new one for me . . . will have to look it up!

Hi badabing.
Perhaps I can give you some persepective from a man's side.
My then fiancee died 14 years ago at the age of 29. The difficulty I think you have is that your DP fiancee did not leave him of her own free will or he split up from her, so like me he does not have the negative feelings towards her that develop when there is a separation. Those negative feelings help us to move on so we can start afresh.
I don't have those feelings and I still love her. But I am not "in love" with her. that is impossible, beacuse she is no longer a part of my life. She is only in my head.
It took me a long time to get over her death and I locked myself away for many years. I am getting married soon, but although I keep in touch with her family and send flowers to her mother on her birthday, out of respect for them and to let them know that I have not forgotten their daughter, I will not be inviting them to our wedding. I think that would be too painful for them more than anything else. When I see her family it is now a case of us being old friends, just the same as any other old friends.
There are occasions when I do think of her. Something will happen or be said that reminds me of her. That will never change. I keep a photograph of her on display again it is a love and respect thing.
What all of those things obsolutely do not mean is that my now fiancee is second best,or that she has to compete, because there is nothing to compete with any more than she is competing with the memory of any other person I loved who has now passed on. I loved them both with all my heart, but they were different people and the love for them is different, because people actually want to be loved in diferent ways. Not that the love I have for my now fiancee is any less.
The "moving on", that people talk about is not the same when a person dies. i have had a number of girlfriends since her death and I have moved on from all of those in the usual sense, but there the love has died, but when a person has passed away the love does not die, the person does. So "moving on", is not the same at all. What it seems you want is for his memory of her to be erased. That won't happen. It's impossible. what will happen if you push it will be that he still lives on in his head in exactly the same way, but he will just hide it from you. That is no way for you to develop a healthy relationship.
What I am trying to say, is that you OH past will not go away or be any different regardless of who he now choses to spend his life with. Whether that's you or if you decide to walk away then eventually with someone else. If he loves you.. then he loves you end of story. Men are much simpler than women, I think, in this respect. The fact that he still has memories is really here nor there. He will not cease to love you and want you because of his dead fiancee, if he ceases to love you it will be for some other reason to do with your relationship.
I can assure you that you are worrying about nothing, so far as his dead fiancee is concerned.
My advice is let him talk about her on the occasions she pops into his head in just the same way that you wouldn't mind him talking about, say another close dead relative when he or she pops into his head. You wouldn't feel threatened by that would you? so please stop torturing yourself about a woman who is no longer with us.
Best of luck. I hope you get it all sorted.

Great post, trampus.

So sorry for your loss :(

"It took me a long time to get over her death and I locked myself away for many years."

How well do you think you would have been able to love another woman 4 months after her death?

I think it is important to remember that as much as this man doesn't owe the OP anything in terms of getting over or forgetting his fiancée, she doesn't owe him waiting until (unless?) he is ever able to love her properly.

Just because he says he loves her and wants a future with her doesn't mean he really does. People say a lot of things they don't/can't/wish they mean.

The decision has to be about what he can realistically offer in the medium (to short) term, and what she wants from a relationship.

Just because he's a good guy who says he loves her doesn't mean she should stay in a relationship that can't give her what she wants.

Athingin Perhaps she shouldn't stay in the relationship. I don't think anyone is saying she should if she's not happy. She might not be making him happy either with all the going on at him. I do think though that if she is unhappy due to the issues she has mentioned then that is of her own doing. Not that she has done it on purpose but that if she wasn't so insecure they wouldn't be problems at all. It would be a shame if she couldn't get a grip on her jealousy and the relationship had to end for that reason alone.

AThing -

No I could not have loved anyone for a long time. I simply wouldn't have been able to and I don't think it would have been fair for me to enter into something so soon. That is me though. Perhaps some people are able to.

I agree that if he is not able to give her what she wants from the relationship then it is not fair of him to pretend (if thats the right way of putting it). hence my use of the word "if" in the phrase, if he loves her then he loves her.

Having said that, if he is not able to give himself fully to the OP, then that is because of where he is or some other reason to do with him or their relationship, not because of his dead fiancee. The threat to their relationship doesn't really come from her.

I also think that naming any DD after her would not be appropriate. I couldn't do that, because any DD I may have would be a product of my realtionship with my now fiancee. Even if my fiancee had asked me to do so, I may have agreed and meant it at the time, because of the situation that was we were in and to comfort her that she would not be forgotten, but the reality is that after the grief it just wouldn't happen.

As for the Gravestone. I don't see a problem. That is about what she was at the time of her death.

I also think the OP is perhaps worrying too much about the fiancee's parents. The parents of my fiancee were genuinely thrilled that I had found someone else to love. No way would they judge my now fiancee. In fact they thought that I had let too many chances pass me by. I am glad I did, but they really wanted me to get on with my life. I suspect that the OH fiancee's parents would feel the same.

If the relationship is right in itself then the OP should not worry about the dead fiancee and all that comes with that.

Thanks trampus, for answering.

I didn't mean to be as intrusive as I'm sure that question seemed

You sound like a lovely man, and I wish you every happiness :)

I think it is normal for a person to actively keep alive the memories of someone they loved for 10 years, after less than 2 years since their death. It really is a relatively short time in the grieving process for someone you have been very close to.

I can understand how hard it must be for you to be in this position, that you might feel that you can't 'compete' with a dead fiancé. But you have to ask yourself honestly if it is HIM that makes you feel you need to compete or your own insecurities?

I think things such as the gestures he makes that you thought were just for you are probably very common to all of us, but until the prevalence of social media we didn't get to 'see' our DP's with their exes all that often, so believed them to be unique. It's probably not that they are gestures for you, or for her, but just happen to be the way that your DP behaves with someone he loves very much. You probably would have a lot of these crossover gestures too if you were to ask an ex of yours.

The issue of her parents coming to your wedding etc are hard. Those peole probably mean a lot to him. I still miss the parents of an ex that I haven't seen in years, they were like my own family, and if he hadn't been such an asshole to them about staying in contact with me then I can actually envisage them having been invited to my weddng...but I don't actually give two hoots about the ex that brought them into my life...so perhaps you don't need to worry about them so much? It would be tragic for him if he had to give them up just because the woman who brought them into his life was dead, why should he lose the things they bring into his life too? I honestly wouldn't see them as a threat if it were me....unless they were the type to make disparaging remarks about you or generally make you feel second best.

If he has asked you to marry him after such a short space of time he is either VERY in love with you, or he has a void in his heart and his life that he needs to fill with someone who will love and look after him, that doesn't mean that he doesn't love you, truly, but it could mean that he has never given himself time and space to get over the loss of the future he USED to have, if that makes sense? Only you can truly know the answer to that.

Without wishing to sound harsh, some of your posts have come across as being just the tiniest bit selfish, although I'm wondering if that is because of a lack of self esteem rather than selfishness. you seem very threatened by anything to do with her, but if you love this man, really truly love him, then you have to accept and embrace his past as well as his present and his future, that's what love is isn't it, an acceptance of all that a person has been, is and will be in the future?? He is partly his relationship with her, she formed part of his personality, you can't have a 10 year relationship without that happening, but it seems to me that this is something that you are perhaps emotionally unable to accept and deal with.

think of it this way, if he dies 10 years down the line, and you get together with someone new 4 months later, how much understanding would you expect at the stage you guys are at now....my guessing is perhaps a little more than you are giving him. please don't take this as criticism, I can understand WHY and HOW a person could feel like you do, but I think he and you would be happier if you were honest with yourself about whether or not this is a situation you CAN actually handle?

I agree with whomever suggested couples counselling, your and you DP sound like good people, who just need some help with this, and let's face it, it's a pretty huge thing to handle alone.

I don't know whether my experience will be relevant to you or not, but here goes -

When I was about 13 my mum started teaching piano lessons to a recently widowed dad of three and two of his children, one of whom was in my sister's class at school. They married about a year later (so probably 18 months to 2 years after his late wife's death). Her family came to the wedding and were genuinely happy for them, my mum made a real effort to get along with everyone and treated them all as extended family.

When the 3rd anniversary of his wife's death came round, he wanted to go back up to Yorkshire to spend time with her family, visit her grave etc. My mum was happy to go with him to support him, or let him go with his children, whichever was easiest. He said he wanted her to go, then at the last minute changed his mind, said she should stay behind, and left. He never came back. He clearly hadn't got over his first wife's death. My mum's world was shattered as she hadn't seen it coming.

I'd say it sounds like he isn't ready for a committed relationship whilst his grief is so fresh. :( for you OP. YANBU to feel threatened and like a replacement IMO. The name thing is weird - the FB and family at the wedding I could handle, if he had moved on. If you continue with this relationship, it's not fair to insist he cuts out a chunk of his acquaintances associated with his previous relationship. If on the other hand he had not moved on, then I'd have to cut my losses.

I suspect due to your relationship history, you feel insecure because you need somebody whose whole heart is yours IYSWIM. As another poster said, you need to feel cherished completely.

There has been talk about this relationship being a bridge for him, with her as a stand-in, not loved for herself etc.

It is actually coming across quite strongly to me that the OP sees him in something of a similar way. There's no big talk of love, feelings for him etc- just fairly abstract plans for marriage and children despite them not actually being engaged.

OP, are you sure you love this man so much that you actually WANT to marry him? Or are you just keen to marry somebody so you can have children?

Twolittlemonkeys that is HORRENDOUS. Your poor mother! How is she now? And in many ways, your poor ex stepfather!

I think I may have come across (indeed actually BE) unbearably a little smug regarding my oh so happy marriage to a guy who was recently widowed when I met him, but your post has really pulled me up short (to the extent that I immediately went to talk to him about it)

If I were in the fiance's position of asking him to name a dd after me if I were terminally ill, what I'd actually be doing by saying that is acknowledging that he will move on, and giving him permission to do so. Otherwise you would be saying don't you ever replace me!

You have to trust him not to compare you to her, and accept she will always be part of his life (although this will diminish with time). I wouldn't interfere with the gravestone - let him make his own decision re wordings. I lost my partner 13 years ago, and promised myself at the time I would never compare him to any future relationships. I met DH 10 years ago and only got rid of letters/ keepsakes of my partner a few years into the relationship despite being in love and very happy. I needed time to let go. Give him time - it only happened recently and it is such a huge thing to get through. Just be supportive and try not to feel threatened. Just because he still thinks of her does not mean he doesn't love you and it will get better in time.

Bada - may I ask what attracted you to him to start with? What do your friends and family think?

I think Springy had it right - you want (rightly) to feel secure and cherished as a first priority. I don't think this relationship will give you that. I would put all talk of marriage and children on the back burner. I'm sorry.

I grew up in a volatile household riven with unresolved unhappiness and insecurity - my mother was my Dad's second wife - his first (young, beautiful, talented, popular) had died of cancer leaving him with two young children so the situation was even more emotionally complicated than yours. She has never felt cherished or valued. And they have been together fifty years. :(

Not so oddly, as a consequence, I too have been drawn to emotionally unavailable men, as a moth to a flame.

A really good therapist might help you sort this through. I really feel for you. It's a horrible situation which exposes so many justifiably raw and visceral feelings - which then make you feel 'bad' and 'unworthy' compared to the dead partner. It's a real Catch 22.

Also - feelings are there for a reason - they act as a primitive warning that all is not well. I think we should trust them more often than we do. The torture of your current situ is that you may be tempted to deny or sugarcoat them. and blame yourself.

When the reality is that you feel threatened because you are being threatened. Not through overt abuse but through the emotional complexity of the situation.

How long was he with her for and what is the story behind the engagement? I think I would feel more threatened if they had been together for 10 years and become recently engaged and she developed a rapidly progressive cancer where she was never well enough to marry than if the relationship had only lasted a couple of years and he proposed knowing that he wasn't really going to marry her. That sounds more heartless than I mean it to, but I wonder why they bothered getting engaged and yet didn't marry.
I'm wondering if it was the sort of relationship where they were as good as married, or whether she was more just a girlfriend.
I would find this sort of relationship really difficult. I know someone who married a bloke whose first wife had died and the house was full of about 100 teddy bears as she had collected them that he wouldn't get rid of.
On the other hand if my dad remarried I'd hate to think of all evidence of my mum being purged from the house.
He is still quite young though and for whatever reason they didn't get married or have children together.
I wouldn't be keen on having his ex's family come to the wedding and would feel that whilst he still felt that bond with them that it was too soon to think of marrying. I would feel differently if he had had children and his exes parents were still connected through being grandparents of his kids, in that case they will always be part of his family.
Difficult, I would see how things go with time. If the relationship is good he will make you feel special and valued despite his ex.
I wouldn't call a child after her though and do wonder why he told you that. It reminds me of Violetta in La traviata giving Alfredo a locket with her picture in as a reminder of how much she loved him and to give to his next girlfriend and to tell her she is watching them from heaven. Suspect if I was that girlfriend I'd run a mile at that.

If there is going to be any long term relationship here, you have to accept that, however much you want it, he is not going to tell you that you are his first choice. because, it simply isn't true, is it? After all, had his life gone the way he (and they) had planned, he would have married his fiancee and you wouldn't even be in the frame. But, sadly, she got ill and died. Then he met you. To all intents and purposes, you are the one he wants to be with now. That doesn't make you second best, it just means that his life, as well as yours, took a different turn to the one that was expected.

As far as the gravestone is concerned, your posts seem to indicate that it is not him that is arranging it. I would expect that her family are doing it, and that when they have decided the wording on their daughter's gravestone, they will notify your OH. I don't think it is for him, and it is certainly not for you, to tell them what they should write in commemoration of their daughter's life.

And really? asking him to compare your performance in bed to hers? Sorry, that is just so wrong, I am not at all surprised he flew off the handle.

I understand that due to the nature of your previous relationship, you have a real need to feel sort of extra special. But I also think it is a very different situation to choose to leave a relationship, for whatever reason, than it is to have it torn away from you, with no hope ever, of getting that relationship back again.

I realise I may have come across as unkind, but I really am not trying to be. I just think that the two of you met at the wrong time for each of you, you both had and continue to have, very different needs from a relationship. And in a way, I think you both still have some grieving to do for the loss of your previous relationships. Maybe you should both take a step back for a little while and allow each of you to deal with your own grieving processes without having to worry about the other, just for the time being. If this relationship is going to happen, it will still be waiting for you when you are both more ready.

The OP did say she was drunk at the time and realises the sex discussion was stupid. However many of us have conversations like this discussing exes and I got the feeling her boyfriend had asked her that sort of stuff about her sex life with her ex and she was just wanting some info on his ex and did feel resentful that he thought she should discuss that sort of stuff about her ex but was unwilling to discuss his and used his exes death as a reason not to, so the discosure was one way.
Discussing previous sexual experiences is rarely helpful to a current relationship and usually means you tell half truths so as not to hurt current partner's feelings. many of us still do it though, although I've found men want to know more about how they compare (and be told they are the best of course!) than I want to know about their past sex lives.

Right; a couple of days have passed since I last read this thread. Frankly, reading it became just too painful and it was (is) horrible to hear my life and feelings being dissected and yes, inaccuracies stated and then blown up and exaggerated.
Not nice to read; I have feelings too.

Having digested what's here, I would say yes, on balance, my own relationship history (10 yrs with an abusive ex) has probably left me in not the greatest shape and yes, those insecurities have shaped the way I am treating this relationship - in some ways. I really do know this and yes, I beat myself up too thinking shoulda/coulda/woulda left earlier. But I didn't, because I kept thinking in vain that things might change.
So, there are times when I think my current behaviour, reactions and even anticipation of what might be is based on my past experience. It's absolutely not fair on my OH...and it is something I am trying to address. I will be fine for 90% of the time (because I really have made efforts to build myself up re confidence) but it's true, it can take something small or 'stupid' that just knocks me off my perch and activates those insecurities. So yes, for those who said my attitude - or rather, my insecurities - werent helping here, I can accept that on the chin.

However; let's get this straight too - I am not for one minute trying to control my OH's memory of his late fiancee or his relationship with her family. Not at all. I categorically dont want her memory to be erased or purged. I have never, ever (ever) said that. And all those posters who wrote stuff here saying that; you really hurt my feelings and made me feel like %$^%$. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT (!!!)

All I want is to feel loved in my own right, and cherished. (Not so different from my other single, female friends actually.) I came on here to ask if certain specific things - namely FB profile, gravestone wording and naming of a DD with her name are 'unreasonable' NOT if it was ok for my OH to continue to respect her memory or even continue to have love for her.
On balance, I've come away thinking...ok, there are some things that maybe I am being unreasonable about and that I can compromise on and accept, even though tbh I felt threatened by them at first. By hearing other opinions has made me think...yeah, ok, I can live with some of this. I dont really have any one else I can discuss this with and certainly no one else who has direct experience of this; that's why I am here!
It's just an 'odd' situation at times to be in; no rule book. I have friends who are seeing divorced men and that comes with its whole raft of issues too - except that in that instance, they have the 'outlet' of being able to criticise the ex if they feel threatened. I don't have that and yes, there are times when I feel jealous or insecure. I just do.

But I am also clear too in terms of what I want and need from a relationship. I want to be happy. I do love my OH. I wish we hadn't met so soon after his fiancee passed away, but it is what it is. Frankly, had you asked me over 10 yrs ago what my life would be like at this age/point in time, I would have painted a different picture entirely - but here we are. I have a past too.

Thank you everyone, especially @SarahDoctorIndyHouse, @MediumOrchid and @TheJoyfullPuddleJumper and @MandyT68 @hellymelly @trampus (v much appreciate the male perspective that was so very lacking otherwise) and...again @SarahDoctorIndyHouse (:) )