to feel really threatened by my OH's dead fiancee?

[badabing123]

Feel horrible writing this but it's beginning to eat me up inside.

Am a late 30something who is in a 1.5yr rel with a man whose late fiancee passed away with the Big C while she was in her mid 30s.
We actually met not long after she's passed away (4 months) - I'd come out of a 10yr rel which had been abusive and very sad-making six months earlier. But I pulled myself together and got out and since then have worked on getting my self esteem back and my life on track.
I'm happy, for the most part I am.

There may be some who think we got together too quickly; maybe we did who knows, but it felt right and we've largely kept under the radar and moved at our own pace. It is what it is.

We have a good relationship. In many ways, both our experiences of 'loss' have given us an understanding and greater compassion, I suppose. Or at least a determination to want to grasp happiness when it comes along. We both want to build a future together and one that involves kids which, as I am in my late 30s, is in some ways something of a relief.

But - and you knew there was a but coming! - however good our relationship is (and there are times I am so happy that I can almost touch the happiness it's so tangible) I am just eaten away by the thought, the fear that however good our relationship it will never bear the same significance as that with his dead fiancee.

1- I am happy for him to continue a relationship with her family, im supportive of this
2- I'm ok with photo of her out on show (i wouldnt think of objecting, though I'm relieved it's now only 2 photos instead of the 7 on the living room shelf when we met)
3 - Ive been supportive of the charitable fundraising he did in her memory.

I am saying the above to make clear that I dont think I am a 'bad person'. I am fair. But I just wonder where I fit in - sometimes there is just no space for me.

Things I object to (and yes, HATE)
1/Her facebook page still up and replete with photos of them together, beaches at sunset, Paris etc etc. Getting friend suggestions with her photo. (nb there's no way I can ask to take this down, it's not my place to do so, but its tremendously hurtful to see this and realise that the affectionate gestures I thought were for me are just replicas of those he gave her)

2/OH telling me that her final request had been that he call his first daughter after her. I replied 'No way'. Not doing that at all. His retort was that he wouldnt push it, was only repeating what she had said.

3/OH wanting her family to come to our wedding. I'm not happy with this; it's our day. I don't want to be there thinking that there are people there wishing I was someone else.

4/Gravestone wording: this was somewhat of an unexpected surprise before xmas as I had assumed this had all been done. Im absolutely sick at the prospect that the wording is going to include wording such as 'fiancee of'. I dont know, Im just dreading the worst what it could be.He doesnt know; its anyone's guess at this point, but it makes me feel sick even thnking about it. Even in death, it feels, she is still 'the one'.

I'm a good person: Someone dying of cancer at such a young age; it's deeply sad. I am sorry for her, Im sorry for her family and I am very touched by how my OH stood by her and supported her during such a difficult time.

But I'm not a stand-in; Im not a replacement.
I have talked these fears through calmly with my OH, he says I am absolutely not, that it's about us building a future. That our pasts are our past.

Yes, I totally get this. I mean, it's not like I had an easy time either (violent ex, mental cruelty) but I got up and moved on. It's not unreasonable to want to be 1st choice. Im not trying to vanquish his past, or remove her memory (not at all) but I feel there is no space for me.

He says he loves me and wants to have a future together - but you know, these things make me feel awful!!! I feel so awful.

What I am scared of most is how his past is not his past; it is always going to be part of the present and the future. We were getting on so well before xmas and then whoosh! news about the gravestone and all the fears (still unresolved) about that immediately surface. It feels like something to do with his past is always going to 'pop up' out of the blue and make me feel sh*t.

AIBU to want to be 1st choice? When I told him I wanted to feel this, for him to tell me that - he said I was being 'ridiculous', no one says stuff like that'. He says I am the one he wants to build a future with, but faced with a %$££%£% Facebook page filled with reams of endless romantic photos and other things besides - I am scared that eg even if we got married and had kids - I could never 'be enough'. I would always be thinking he was wishing I was her.

I am scared that because of my age I am settling for something that say 10 yrs ago I would have walked away from. I love him - but I hate his past.
I can accept that it's his past but I loathe the way it's coming into my present and my future.

Even worse, it is making me dislike HER (ashamed to admit this). As much as I objectively feel sorry for her I cant bear the hold she has now, even in death. And you can't compete with someone who is dead.

At least with an ex who is alive you can b*tch about them - but you can't do that when someone is dead. You just have to ...eat it?

AIBU? or how can I possibly deal with this better (without resorting to the vodka bottle :) )?

You don't create a blended family with friends.

You don't expect friends to become a third set of grandparents to your children.

Of course there is room for these people in his life, for as long as he wants there to, but as long as they occupy the place of soon-to-be in-laws, nobody else can take that position.

This man wasn't yet married to their daughter, they didn't have children. The only thing keeping them in the role they have now is that none of them are ready to move on.

That relationship (like most, but particularly where important circumstances change) is likely to change over time as they all move on.

But none of them are ready to let that happen (unsurprising less than 2 years since their bereavement) and that tells its own story.

The "it'll be great, we'll all be such close pals and see each other all the time, and there's no need for anything to change", is a pretty common reaction in the early stages of dealing with change. But it's not realistic. They're not ready for reality yet.

I disagree. She will always be his fiance like it or not just like my dead mum will always be my dad's wife regardless of who he should marry in the future. She is dead. I can understand how you feel but you really need councelling about this and he is a bit foolish getting involved so soon after his wife's death.

That dosn't mean that he cannot love you but some people are very close to their ex wife's. There is enough love to go round in this world imo for evryone to have a share.

I am a firm believer that we can love more than one person. He may love her buyt obviously in a different way as she is dead. I think you need help stopping your dislike of her. She has made him who he is today. Be thankful for that if you can accept it.

If nothing else, this thread has shown that we all move as individuals and will grieve in our own ways and at our own pace. There is no absolute consensus on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong', so it seems that the only way for the OP to resolve this is to decide what she can and can't live with, and talk really honestly to her dp, in the hope that he sees things broadly the same way.

I understand the wanting to keep contact with the fiancee's family, but I can't get my head around him wanting the OP to do it too. The OP has no connection to these people, emotionally and she is not grieving the loss of the fiancee, so shouldn't constantly be put in situations where she is expected to act as if she were.

"She will always be his fiance."

Only if he never moves on with his life.

Your fiancée is someone you intend to marry (present tense).

I really hope for this man's sake he doesn't try to preserve his life in aspic like that.

As sad as it is, presumably the intention to marry her passed with her.

In the fullness of time she will become the woman he would have married if life had run differently.

The idea of an eternal fiancée is incredibly weird, and it would be crazy to get involved with a man who had one.

"The OP has no connection to these people, emotionally and she is not grieving the loss of the fiancee, so shouldn't constantly be put in situations where she is expected to act as if she were."

Indeed.

The gravestone thing is a bit weird, IMO- I don't think I've ever seen a reference to a fiancée on one. I've certainly not seen the living fiancé mentioned by name, unless he had plans to share the plot. Perhaps on a newspaper memorial, but gravestone? It seems odd.

You may like to suggest that he looks at some form of grief counselling.There are recognized steps to the grief process that everyone appears to go through at some stage, and must in order to help them emerge "the other side".

The very fact that whatever they are feeling is part of the process, that they will deal with it and emerge the other side appears to be very helpful

In my view, losing someone like this leaves the possibility that they are placed on a Pedestal, rather than being remembered as a loved and missed person with all the usual human frailties.

Hope you manage to work things out

www.crusebereavementcare.org.uk/

I have read through your post time and time again and I can only think what did you expect would happen if you got involved with someone whose DF died only 4 months earlier?

He obviously was totally in love with her and with a combination of love and grief at the same time is an explosive emotional combination..

I really think way too much to soon for the pair of you.
You seem to be holding on to him out of desperation- you say yourself 10 years ago if you had found yourself here you would have walked away and because he seemed a good catch compared to your previous relationships.

After thinking hard about what I would do, or think I would do, it would be to back off, maybe meet other people and let him go through the breavement cycle first. He is still at the first stages of it and I'm guessing may have a lot more emotions to work through before he returns to his old self. You can always get together later on.

I'd walk away for now.

I think jumping into a new relationship so quickly was a huge mistake. If you (by "you" I mean both of you) had waited until he was truly ready to move on, chances are he'd have removed all the photos himself and rather than have them on show, keep them in an album. He and the "inlaws" would have naturally drifted apart and if/when, in the fullness of time, he mentioned such ridiculous ideas as naming your first daughter after his dead ex (I still think she's an ex, regardless of circumstances) and inviting her relatives to your wedding, you wouldn't have to tiptoe quite so gently round telling him in no uncertain terms how inappropriate that would be.

Sorry, I couldn't be doing with it. Sympathies and all that, but if you're not careful you'll end up talking in hushed, reverential tones about her and dusting her picture for the rest of your life.

About the naming of future daughters... when my mum and dad came over to tell me that my brother had died, i was 5 months pregnant. my dad suggested that i could name the baby after my brother. later he retracted his suggestion and said it was grief talking. my brother will live on in our memories and hearts and we don't need other people named after him.

Also, i've just read a novel where this issue was covered ie, woman with horrid man as ex meets man with dead wife. it's called 'chances' by Freya North. it ends happily but there's some dodgy times. you might read more into it/take more from it than the average reader.

I believe it's quite possible for you and your man to forge a happy future together. you just need love, patience, compromise and acceptance. big hugs.

I can't see why (op and other posters) are finding such a problem with him keeping in touch with his fiancee's family. If my dh died I can't imagine cutting his family out of my life. I see them as my family. And if a future partner of mine refused to meet them I'd be very hurt. I'm afraid I'd see them as being petty and insecure. Your partner sees his fiancee's family as part of his family because he was close to them when he was with her and then they went through a tragedy together. He wants to stay in touch because they are important to him in themselves, not because they remind him of her or he wants their approval for you.

I'm afraid I can't see why you consider the request to meet them or visiting her grave together 'bizarre' - I did both of these things with my dh when we were first together, and I thought it they were nice things I could do for him.

I agree that 4 months was too soon to get together but it's done now, and apart from that I really can't see what he is doing that is at all unreasonable. You must keep in mind that none of this is his fault - or hers. It is not as if as he keeps going on about her, or compares her to you, or says things like 'oh yes, i went here with xxx', is it? I presume you would have said if he did. In which case he is doing his best to commit fully to his relationship with you and leave her in the past. To ask him to do anything more would, I think, be unreasonable.

I hope you don't feel I'm going on about this too much but reading the later replies to your thread I am suprised by the number of people who are implying that he is being unreasonable.

Orchid - I've read it more as an unreasonable situation, rather than either the OP or her DP being unreasonable.

If my DH died, I'd have no particular desire to keep in touch with my ILs. It wouldn't make me feel closer to my DH. And I wouldn't feel the need to introduce any future partner to them. In fact, I'd avoid it at all costs.

But that's my personal situation.

Just as your experience is your personal situation.

There are clearly elements of the OP's situation that aren't comfortable to her and there's no reason why they should be. She is making an effort, but I can completely understand her concerns.

I think that with, no children involved, I'd be withdrawing from this relationship.

I don't think this is going to end well. You won't finish it or give him space. Whoever said desperation had it right. You see him and this relationship and your 1.5 year investment as your last throw of the die for children, that's it isn't it?

This man is not over his ex at all. I don't think it's unreasonable for him or the family to have him on the stone. It's a marker of how her life stood, not yours.

Her fb page will always stay as a memorial as long as her friends and family want it. Yabu. Block it.

These people were a huge part of his life, they shared a huge loss, so I can see the contact thing, they need each other. If you had of waited or written off the relationship, you probably would have found the intensity of this relationship would eventually dwindle a bit.

The name thing, I get that, but it shows that he just isn't over her and he is still grief stricken. Not surprising he hasn't had the time or space to grieve. It's not been two years. The majority of that has been with you. He hasn't had the freedom and space to get all this out. So you are offended at lots of things, he is still trying to process all that is going on, a messy combo.

Unless you give him time to get through this on his own, in his own time. Then you are going to be resentful of things which are normal in the grieving process. He will get resentful of you seeing her as competition and not allowing to process it all.

By carrying on like this, heartache lies for both of you. You need to let him go, to grieve properly. Otherwise you will just end up miserable.

I just wanted to echo what some others have said about the gravestone issue - I have never seen a gravestone which mentioned names of anybody other than the deceased - ie it may say fiance/father/son etc, but not the names of of the people concerned. Did you maybe misunderstand what he meant?

More generally, I also agree with others that this is a big issue (IMO) which probably won't just go away. It sounds to me that he simply wasn't ready to enter a new relationship, and as much as he wanted to move on, he clearly hasn't managed to even begin to do so - which is not suprising as his fiance had only been gone 4 months. Yes she was clearly a big part of his life, and will always be 'in' his life in some respects - but she wasn't ever a part of yours, and I think for him to try to make her so, by talking about you naming your child after her, is wrong on so many levels.

I don't blame him for this, he is clearly struggling to accept that she is in the past and won't be part of his future. Maybe this will come with time, as it does for the majority of people, but in the mean time, I honestly don't know what that means for your relationship. Only you know if you are prepared to be his friend and maybe bereavement counsellor first, and girlfriend second - for now, anyway.

One thing that does strike me is that you accept you've gone from an abusive relationship with a selfish man to a relationship where someone has less to give you because he is grieving. If this is a pattern of yours there is every chance if you do walk away that you will find another selfish man. Whereas at the moment you have a good man who will become more and more available to you as he processes his grief.

I think as you move on, get married, have babies - time will pass and you will both heal.

You don't really know what will be on the gravestone. But it will say what she was, not what she is. She was his fiancée. And I think you're going to have to be generous with that or risk a lot of bitterness from his family. It's a small thing to give. I know it doesn't seem like it, but it is.

Some good points about the gravestone from FinallyFinally.

I think this society put such great emphasis on what a woman is in relation to a man. I think for her parents to want that on her gravestone, is more about finding peace with the fact that their daughter had this definition, and that she would have been married, and not died a spinster, or without knowing love. It makes it seem less sad, like her life had been "less in vain" in a strange sort of way. I think it is important to them. I would not put obstacles for this. It is more for the parents and them coming to terms with the loss.

The fella has two photos up as opposed to the seven initaly - not unreasonable

The gravestone --He was her DF at the point of her death, that is a fact. The wording on a gravestone indicates what she was to people , daughter, sister and so on. It would have said wife on if they had been married - not unreasonable.

facebook comfort for other people It can be blocked not unreasonable

Invite to the wedding, a bit more trickier emotionaly but if he has known the family for a long time and got on well with them why not. It is his wedding as well and it would be nice to have an open happy heart. If a couple of them came to the evening do, this is assuming you are getting married, would it really take the shine of the day to say a couple of nice words and be friendly to a family that have suffered. In a cruel way their loss has been your gain. I wouldn't expect dozens of family members to turn up!! just those he was close to, maybe a brother or the parents may come for an hour to to wish him future happiness.

Future DD name. Well that sounded more whimiscal than anything else. I'd let that go because it isn't even something for consideration at the moment. If you do feel that it is a name you would never have picked say so. Possible a middle name? That depends on how strong you both feel. Deal with that later, you may never have a DD so it isn't an issue.

Try to have love in your heart, I said earlier it does sound like he is in the breavement cycle because it was only about 19 months since she died, which isn't that long really.
If you still find it hard, like I said earlier, maybe a short break until emotions are calmer.

I don't think anyone has said that he is being unreasonable, just that he doesn't seem to have dealt with his grief yet.

There's nothing unreasonable about that, but it does have implications for the OP.

She says she's in no rush to get engaged, but they're already talking about wedding guests and names for future children.

That kind of confusion could well indicate that this is a bridge relationship for him - that he's pushing on with the wedding he was planning to have before his fiancée died, still wanting to have the children they planned together (with the same grandparents, named after their missing "mother").

Waiting until he is ready to genuinely move on (either with him or separately) seems the only reasonable option here, but the OP is in her late 30s.

Time isn't on her side, unless she's prepared to potentially miss out on having children for this relationship.

And even if she decides she is, is he? He has more time at his disposal.

There seems to be an awful lot of judgement and expectation on this thread.

In truth, none of us knows how we would react if we lost a partner, yet seem to think it ok to have expectations of how others should act.

If my dh died I cannot imagine cutting his family out of my life. Yes we have a child together and obviously that does make things more certain in terms of keeping family bonds, but even if we didn't I can't imagine just cutting them out and having nothing more to do with them. Because even if you meet people through other people i.e. I wouldn't have known ILs were it not for dh, there's nothing to say that if that connection is no longer there you cannot maintain a relationship with those you came to know through that person. Why on earth should it? Any expectation that a tie between the man and his fiance's family should be severed at any point is the issue of the op, not anyone else, IMO.

I am going to disagree with the vast majority on this thread and say that I think the naming of a child is a bit of a non issue, actually. We're talking hypothetical here, the op and this man aren't even living together yet let alone expecting a child. If the op were expecting a child and the discussion of names had come up and he said he wanted to name the child after his dead fiance then yes I could see issue with that. But as yet there is no child and no pregnancy and any children are probably years into the future, at which point thoughts and feelings will most likely have changed. After all how many of us have discussed our hypothetical children, and their names etc and when it comes to the crunch nothing is ever as we envisaged. It's no different here IMO, it's just that the subject matter is more emotive.

I think this is less to do with this man's grief and his fiance and far more to do with op's insecurities. Asking him about what she was like in bed for instance just shows that the op is setting herself up for heartbreak. I think op that you will have issues regardless of who you get involved with at this point - clearly you have self esteem issues, and no man is ever going to make you feel 100% loved because you will always be looking for reasons for this not to be so.

What a thing said basically. He is still so much into her and he is still so stuck in the grieving cycle.

Not surprising he hasn't had any time at all to process this himself. It's almost like a rebound relationship. I do think this could be a bridging relationship as Has been said.

It's all so over the place, it is like he is saying one thing, trying to pretend she is here, via op, his old plans will carry on. But on the other hand wanting to wait as he hasn't moved on. Either way I still think heartache lies here for her.

I am going to go out on a limb here and throw another thought into the mix, mostly based on the wise words of wannabee and Athing...

There seems to have been lots of talk about wedding and future children, very early in the relationship before you are living together, and before he has processed his grief.

AThing is talking about a "bridge" relationship where he is continuing his plans with you, rather than her.

Could all this premature talk of weddings, and children and names, be nothing more than him working through his emotions about what he has lost?
To be blunt (and not saying this wont change!!) maybe he actually does not want to marry you (right now), he just wants to be married, because that is the life course he was on?

Possibly he just needs more time. Time to work through his loss, his emotions, and find a proper place for you. And wannabee is right about your insecurities. You know, my husband (we have been married 13 years, been a couple for nearly 20 in total) had recently broken off with a woman he was set to marry, at the age of 20. I never asked him what she was like in bed. I was torn with jealousy, as I had seen her picture and she was beautiful. He was talking quite a lot about her, mostly because she had tried to trick him into a quick marriage saying she was pregnant, when she wasnt).

My point is, it is natural to talk about the predecessor, especially if there are things to process, but it is not natural to ask questions such as "Do you think she is prettier than me, do you think she is better in bed" etc. These are very immature questions, and I did not even ask them as a 21 year old. Love is blind. In the sense that looks doesn't matter. My husband is not the handsomest of men, but it does not matter, for I love him. I think he is gorgeous though. I know I am not as pretty as his ex, I am different, and it really does not matter. And as for the bed? Well, really it does not matter, not when you love somebody.

Perhaps understandable but also a little unreasonable at the same time.

1. Her facebook page is her own, not his. Maybe he doesn't have access to the password? It is a place where her other friends can remember her and leave messages in memorial.
2. It's not an unreasonable dying request and it's also not unreasonable for you to feel a bit uncomfortable with it. Perhaps you could come to a compromise and have it as a second or third given name so it wouldn't be in your face all the time.
3. He didn't just have a relationship with his ex-fiance, he had a relationship with her family. They might feel a bit wistful but they may love and admire him and want to continue to be a part of his life. If they love him, they will be glad that he has found someone to love again. Personally, I think it would be lovely if I died and my DH remarried , if he invited my family, who respect him enormously.
4. Do you actually know what the wording will be or are you living in dread of something which may not turn out to be so bad after all? It might just say "Beloved by x,y,z" without mentioning their specific relationships.

I do think YABU to demand that he say you are his '1st choice'. He has obviously has chosen you to rebuild his life with and I personally I would settle for that rather than worry yourself about hypotheticals (would he choose me or her if she was still alive) which make unreasonable demands on his private affections. Even if she had not died and was just an ex, he might not have been willing to bitch about her with you just to make yourself feel better.

I am not angry and bitter at all op, just blunt. I dont particularly believe in tip toeing around it and also its hard cos im on a phone!

Yes there are two people in the relationship and your feelings are just as important as his. But i cant help feel that you are being controlling jealous and insecure.

Yes this man comes with baggage but its not up to you to make him discard it. If you cant handle it you should break things off. I strongly believe that you got into this relationship too soon as you cant handle being with a man who is still grieving and so you should back off.

There have been some stories on here about new partners making the bereaved partner cut of his old life and that is incredibly sad.

I really dont understand why the gravestone bothers you. It might say that they were engaged but that is the truth. By not wanting that on there you are trying to wipe that part of his life. You have no right to do that. Seeing as this is a gravestone which you may never even see and isnt exactly going to be in your face everyday or even ever, then the only reason you can have an issue with it is your own insecurity.

I was in an abusive relationship as well and was very delicate afterwards. Perhaps this is why it is such an issue for you.

Athinginyourlife . . . perhaps he thinks of them as parent figures though. Lots of people do with their partners parents. The blended family thing may be a step too far but who knows exactly what he means by that. Would be nice if they could remain friends though. Perhaps though it is his guilt at having moved on which made him come up with the blended family idea. But whatever the reason if op makes him cut them off he may well resent her forever.

I don't think you sound at all bitter, poopoo. Actually, I agree that the op is being unreasonable. Her dp is still trying to overcome a massive personal tragedy.He (perhaps ill-advisedly) got involved in a new relationship too soon, possibly to distract himself from his grief and despair, much like a rebound. He will never be able to process his grief effectively if he is busy tip-toeing around op to appease her insecurities. Op is paying lip service to her dp's feelings, but this strikes me as rather disingenuous. The thrust of her argument seems to be 'yes, yes, it's all very sad and all that but what about Me?' I find it slightly solipsistic to be honest.