If my son were my daughter... LONG!

[IfMySonWereMyDaughter]

My son is in his midtwenties, and is engaged to and living with his DF. They've been together for about 8 years, and I think she was his first GF, certainly the only one he has ever mentioned or introduced. I have always found it difficult to like her or even get to know her; in all of that time I have only heard her chat freely once, and was astounded at her cattiness and lack of empathy, but I suppose she's young. (I made no comment at the time, nor have I since.) They are due to marry later this year.

She has a difficult family background and this has caused her problems with insecurity and self-esteem, including eating disorders; this was disclosed to me when every invitation to a family event resulted in her being "sick" at the last minute. Despite not having a "chatty" relationship, she has confided in me about some events in her past and ended up sobbing in my arms a couple of times. I have suggested counselling, offering to drive her to appointments, and even sourcing the help available, but she has taken no action so far as I know. I concluded she's a bit of a drama queen (understandably) and left it.

Until they moved out about 15 months ago, they both slept in my home 3 or 4 nights a week, spending the other nights in her home. They would come back from work or college, collect their meals from the kitchen and vanish upstairs to eat and watch TV in his room. They did not participate in family life at all, did no housework and paid no rent, but DH and I left them to it. We were, tbh, relieved when they moved out, as DS had constant clashes (verbal!) with his dad and younger brother and the atmosphere could be uncomfortable at times.

So far, so normal.

However, since then she has decided that she hates me, and is refusing to speak to me. Xmas gifts were pointedly from him, not them. When I asked DS what was going on, he told me his DF feels I betrayed her confidence when I spoke to a friend when seeking help in supporting her with her eating disorder; said friend is a bit of an expert on the topic and the information I disclosed to her has gone no further. So yes, I did breach her confidence but only because I was worried about her, and I have apologised and explained this to her, but my apologies are not accepted. DH is included in the "not speaking to" category by virtue of being DH, and DS2 is also included because of the sibling rivalry going on when they all lived here.

DS feels caught in the middle, but is still speaking to us and even managing to be civil to his DB now they live apart. He's in a difficult situation and none of us wants to make that any worse.

However, DH and I recently bumped into one of DS's good pals from school, and were disturbed to realise that DS hasn't seen him in over a year. Plans had been made a few times, but cancelled at the last minute when DF was "sick." DS2 met another of DS's old friends (DS was best man at his wedding 18 months ago, this couple introduced DS to his DF) and he hasn't seen DS in a long time either. The married couple have often invited DS and DF to social events, but every time DF was "sick" at the last minute. They haven't even seen DS and DF's new home.

There are other examples, he has left one club, drastically reduced his involvement with another, and given up a third pastime he had recently taken up, all since moving in with her. They live in a property belonging to her family, in her village.

So, if my son were my daughter, I'd be sitting her down for a chat about red flags and abusive behaviour. I'd be pointing out that DF is attempting (and achieving) to isolate her from friends and family, and is emotionally manipulative. I'd maybe even say that, damaging as DF's background was, it doesn't excuse such controlling behaviour in the here and now. I might point out that DF cannot be "fixed" by love or responsibility alone.

But I have a horrible feeling that attempting such a conversation would result in a complete break from family. What, if anything, can or should I do? Keep my nose out and not be an "interfering MIL from Hell"? Or attempt the talk and maybe make everything so much worse?

From what you've said, there would seem to be some considerable degree of dysfunction in her family but, that said, I find it a tad peculiar that you haven't had any communication with her family - cards at Christmas, occasional phone calls, Sunday lunch? - over a period of 8 years.

Surely now's the time to organise a get-together? Maybe invite them for tea?

OP I have just been helping a male friend through the break up of a relationship that sounds very similar to this. By the time it ended she had isolated him from all his family and friends and we commented that if he were female everyone would have seen the emotional abuse far more than they do when it is a man.

Agree though you have to bide your time as there is none so blind as those who don't want to see, just be there if and when he needs you

The op said the her family were toxic.

My parents have only met my dh's family twice in 12 years.

It happens,it's not strange when you have toxic families or just not close as a family unit.

Oh God, izzy, I can't tell you how much I'm dreading that. I'm not good at meeting new people, already don't like her parents because of what they did. I am childishly hoping to just get an introduction at the wedding, a bit of small talk for a couple of hours and never see them again.

I know this is not a particularly adult way to carry on, but I genuinely shake at the thought. Beta-blockers may be necessary for the wedding as it is.

Thanks Tranquil, and Thingumy again.

It's not that unusual- my parents have never met DP's lot in six years. There's no problem at all on either side. Just no particular reason for them to have met.

It does sound like they're having an extended honeymoon period....and that she is not a balanced person. I know if my Mum were you, she would be dong things like encouraging me to go to see mates when she saw me....very hard OP. It must be difficult but he has to live his life I suppose. And learn his lessons.

Even if he WERE your daughter you couldnt DO much.

I don't see him often, he's been by twice this year but only to collect mail, never stays long enough for a cup of tea, and usually on the way to work. (He doesn't work a 9 to 5)

It seems like you don't know enough about what your son does do in his daily life now to know if this change in friends and activities is just part of change with age or not being able to afford things or if it is down to deliberate isolation. I've heard that these people will speak to family members too so maybe it might help you to have a chat with a volunteer expert if they will chat to you? www.mensadviceline.org.uk/pages/advice-support-for-male-victims.html

As for her behaviour, it could be down to needing to push away a mother type figure given her own background and, if so, she probably would have found any excuse once an emotional reaction kicked in that you shouldn't let a mother get too close.

When you read threads of women on here who are in trouble and need to leave their partners you so often read them say they couldn't possibly turn to their parents for support because parents would be scared/disappointed/sad/angry/told you so or various other reasons. So, as others have said, just letting your son know you are there for him and won't judge if he needs help to come away or help to stay and make things better if he needs it, will be one of the best things you can do for him I'd have thought.

What about your DH? Where is he in all of this?

Thanks for the link, will have a look. She hates DH too but he's not overly-concerned.

No worries OP.

I think I probably see myself in your DIL.

I had a awful abusive upbringing and the result of that I found and still do find it hard to trust people,if you can't trust your parents or family,who can you trust?

She sounds like she shuts down 'relationships' if she feels backed into a corner or hurt,it's not 'right' but it can be a very sure way of self preservation often learnt from awful abusive childhoods.

I also have had issues with panic attacks/depression which has made both I and my dh not go to social events or mix with others if I have been 'bad'.That might of been perceived as me being controlling or making dh miss out,but he wouldn't go if I was ill.

I can't really surmise as I don't know her but I do hope that you ALL can be civil and kind to each other and somehow both you and her can be friends one day,if only for your sons sake (and those future grandchildren).

I have a male friend this happened to, his girlfriend went out of her way to cut off his friends, or at least try to control any meetings and minimise time spent with his family, however, although all these concerns were articulated before he moved in with her, they are still together 10 years later and very happy. For whatever reason, they seem to like being in their own little world, and I do think he could have resisted had he wanted to (unlike some women with some men). I am glad no-one said anything too much, as we are still in contact and whilst it's not the same, those ties are there for the future in case anything happens. I think you are fairly powerless in this situation and just have to keep the lines of communication open so that it gives him a way to resist her a little, or temper her feelings. But ultimately, it is his choice and by siding with her a bit, he is forming a family unit and letting you know where his loyalties lie. It's very sad and I bet you wish it were different.

Thank you so much for that post, Thingumy, I think you're exactly right. But did you turn down every invitation? Because as far as I can ascertain, they haven't socialised in a year and a half, at their friends' wedding. It's not just being asked out to dinner, it's been theatre/gig in a bar/walk on the beach, and every time she calls off at the last moment. I totally understand about not eating in public and I have tried to be supportive, but yes, "shutting down" would cover it. :(

Hardgoing, I hope you're right. He certainly seems happy enough at the moment, but then plenty people put a good face on it too.

Oh, absolutely, TSC, I'm the same and expect my DC also to take that view. I understand that my DS's primary loyalty should be to the woman he chooses to settle down with, and have no doubt that it is.

Thingumy's posts, especially the last one, have enabled me to see things from DF's point of view, something I used to do (or at least try, or imagine I was trying...) and which I had lost, perhaps because I was genuinely shocked that she had been harbouring this resentment for so long. When hatred is blasted at you, you get thrown a little off-course.

[re-engages sense of compassion]

Yes,there has been times where I have in the past not attending anything for a good few years because of the panic or utter fear of being with others and my dh has supported me,not because I'm controlling his every move but he wanted to be with me.

It can be a awful trap to get into as agoraphobia sets in and then it's very easy not to even try to get out and mix.

I guess people could of judged my non appearances or 'excuses' (I had loads) as being cold or not wanting to bother.I'm sure lots did think that.

I can say this is what your son's gf is going through but it could be a possibility.

*can't

Thank you again, Thingumy. She does get out to work, is that a different stress to socialising? Sorry, I know you can't speak for her, but for you?

Yeah, I could go to work as I knew all colleagues and there was no fear with familiarity.

My fear was of social situations say like a meal out or meeting new people (social anxiety).

I completely understand that, though it leaves me wondering why she turned down invitations from the couple who introduced DS to her, good friends, and why she hasn't invited anyone to see their new home. (She was out when DH and I went, now I realise why.)

Thank you again, from the bottom of my heart, Thingumy. I will stop the cross-examination now.

I hope the wedding and bridges get build from all directions.

Wish you well.

Your future DIL sounds like very hard work and I agree 100% that if she were a man, you would have had quite a different reaction on here.

If she has an ED (and I suffered from an ED myself in my early 20s) then surely it's time to seek help rather than refuse every invitation and make her DP refuse them also.

And the cheek of not speaking to someone who is paying for your wedding! And for not speaking to the OP's husband purely because she fell out with the OP. She sounds about 9 years old. And not putting her name on the Xmas presents. Do grown women really act that pathetically?

As others have said though, I guess you can only let your DS know you are there for him and let them get on with it. I wouldn't pay for the wedding of someone who wasn't talking to me for such a pathetic reason, though.

Have to LOL @ Tryharder, or at least smile. I was getting a bit teary there, may have been involved, and thinking I'd been a bit of a cunt really, and then I get a slap about the face with a wet haddock!

I love MN.