Can Asperger's look like emotional abuse?

[NotThemCrows]

I posted on here last week, concerned about my DHs behaviour. I have read the Lundy book (fantastic- huge thanks to all those who pointed me in that direction) and recognised some of the stuff in there.

Last night I had a 1 to 1 session with our Relate counsellor for the first time (had about 4 sessions together and DH had one by himself 2 weeks ago) and she thinks that my DH may have Aspergers.

This does make a lot of sense to me, he is socially awkward, no empathy, no emotional awareness etc.

Could his major problem be Aspergers?

I was just wondering if any else has difficulties with an Aspergers DH that feels like EA.

Either way he still has anger issues, has demonstrated unacceptable behaviour and I have totally had enough of his bs and want a separation.

I am just trying to make sense of it all (or am I making excuses?)

Thoughts please

Well I am vv good at language analysis, and the sub-text thing (this is known as Pragmatics, and is my academic linguistic speciality). And am not bad at detecting tone of voice. However, I still get caught out by not responding to hints - I sometimes worry someone is hinting when they are not, and can also miss hints. Also language being inherently ambiguous I can still get the wrong end of the stick. I can often tell if I'm getting things wrong though, and then I try to sort it out by asking follow up questions.

In part I think this is due to the female AS tendency to facility with language, in part due to my logical brain, and also much is due to having to puzzle out DF.

I do have to make sure I rest and recover and not overdo things. My preferred style is overdrive then long chill period

garlic I think we are entering something else here about how you see life.
I certainly would not chose to look for pain to 'improve myself'! and would not expect anyone else to do so.
But yes, you are totally right. I do use difficult situations as a way to learn. Yes of course. Just as I use the pain I had with PND and not loving my son to change and find a way to connect with him. Obviously in this case, he had nothing to do with it. The issue was completely mine. But I could also have said 'Oh well, sometimes you just don't get on with all your dcs. It's our temperaments. I can't do anything about it'.

The way I look at it is that you can only find real happiness within yourself so if you are unhappy, then that's also where you need to look.

amber, yes I completely agree with you. That's a recent discovery for me.
I really like the way you explain that though. It makes it very clear and real.
I can understand how to talk this way would help too. Except that it would be something else I need to work on tbh. Not something that would come naturally.

Prince yes it does sound like AS. And I can totally relate to what you are saying, apart from the fact that DH hasn't let me in nearly as much as your DH has. In some ways, you must have a good, trustful relationship.
For me, I have 'given up' expecting an emotionally close relationship where you can talked and share your deepest feelings. Too scary for DH. I have learnt to appreciate his ways of expressing his love (like bringing me flowers because I told him 15 years ago that it was somethig nice to do) and knows how to interprate it.

Peppa - your take on life really resonates with me. Each person is responsible for his/her own happiness. We CHOOSE to be hurt by other people. There are all sorts of ways to stop ourselves being hurt by a particular other person.

1. One is to end the relationship
2. One is to find a way of indicating that it hurts and that it is to stop and be replaced by [insert alternative] (if the person is well intentioned, they'll do their best to do that once they've got the message)
3. One is simply to decide not to be hurt. And there are various paths that help one in that direction - buddhism, new age-y spirituality like Eckhart Tolle and stuff, Christianity, etc etc etc

I would want to be quite sure that I'd exhausted the increased-happiness potential of 2 and 3 before I resorted to 1.

prince
"I am a very emotionally person who has good empathy and has close friendships where we talk a lot and I feel very lost in our relationship at times and like I am shutting down sometimes. I worry that I am disengaging and unless he starts to let me in a bit it will just fizzle out."

Yes, sadly I recognise this. I too am looking for how to break this pattern, and it seems I'm the one that has to find a way to do it. Like peppa, I know he loves me because of things he does for us.

ommmward your 1,2,3 resonates with me. I believe in (the potential of) our relationship, we made a commitment and have 2 dcs. It's our duty to exhaust every option before giving up on it, us and them.

peppa I like ambers points too, but will find the direct, stating the obvious way of talking difficult to get in to. I like your options too - did you say you'd had counselling? Are you in a better place for it?

This thread is very helpful for me too - thanks all

I had counselling. It helped me recognize and accept that I was been hurt. This in itself was a very good thing. I also gained some good insights on how I was reacting and how other people were reacting around me.

I can't say that after that, I really enjoyed it. I felt I needed to stop thinking about all the 'horrible things' he was doing and concentrate more on putting some joy back in my life. Going over and over the same things did the opposite to me.

I have to say though, that I did that before I really realized what was going on. I was very much in a place where everything seemed to be pointing towards abuse but it felt like I could not end the relationship because it felt too wrong.
If I was having counselling now, I would chose someone with some experience of AS.

Hi. I have a diagnosed "Aspi" DH, and he has some very "odd" behavioural quirks, and, even tho I love him to bits, and know and understand his diagnosis, he can be hard to live with at times. We have twin boys of 11yrs, and this is becomming a particular problem for him as he cannot relate any more to their rapidly changing personalities and needs,and also the fact that they, like most typical pre-teens, are starting to push at boundries and answer back, he gets v angry at this, and has difficulty in backing off, and i have to get inbetween them in order for him to see what he is doing is not acceptable. He can also say some really hurtful things, but he just doesnt understand why they are hurtful. He will apologise profusely, and say he understands, but you can see in his manner that really and truly he does not know what he has done wrong, and why the thing he did was not acceptable. We also have the problem with any punishment for bad behaviour- he cannot and never has been able to get his head around the fact that you cannot come straight in with a full blown punishment without giving any warning or lesser punishment, then he gets annoyed when I dont "back him up" For instance, one of the boys was being noisy (he is very suseptable to noise) and didnt quieten down as soon as he put the TV on, he went straight in with the "no xbox for a week", not asking if he could be quieter first! He is hard work at times, and, I must admit, recently I asked him to leave us for a week, so I could get some perpective on how things were working, as it seemed I was trying to parent 3 pre-teens, not 2, and I was becomming emotionally exhausted.

Hi bubby64 welcome aboard!

I relate a lot to what you say - the lack of patience, wanting to implement instant punishment, getting very agitated about being 'backed up'......I had to tell him I couldn't back him up if I didn't agree, yet he would make snap decisions without consulting with me, then expect me to almost be a 'henchman'.

He would get very annoyed that his way of parenting wasn't being allowed by me, but despite the fact I know I can be a bit soft - I knew he was way too harsh. (We did do things his way sometimes, eg letting dc1 cry it out at 2 1/2yrs old when he wouldn't settle in bed - but without doing the crying routine - ie he shut him in his room then settled down to watch tv! I allowed this one night but refused after that.I couldn't believe it, it was so heartless)

He would also arrange to play with the ds1 and 2, and say we'll play for 5 mins, and it would be exactly that. He would suddenly stop and say that's it. The kids would be mad with disappointment, and sometimes invoked punishment because they overvoiced their frustration.......

Very interesting you have a diagnosis, how did that come about and how did he react?

How would he score on the Asperger test?
www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

Baron-Cohen writes about affective empathy vs cognitive empathy where? I'd like to read about it.

His latest book 'zero degrees of Empathy' very interesting. I personally, do not believe that people with aspergers have no empathy. We just don't do that 'fake' empathy that many people seem to do.

I have noticed that some people (with and without AS) don't seem able to 'compute' how other's lives might be from the info they have - eg that someone with small children might not be able to do the things that they do.

Agree we can have empathy - too much in some cases!

Tired and wrestling with divorce settlement form, otherwise would elaborate a bit more. Perhaps later.

Welcome to anyone who has just posted on this thread. I am looking forward to hear different poc, ideas so that I can clarify mines.

All this is very interresting. I had never heard about affective empathy and cognitive empathy before! But the the bits I have read make a lot of sense to me and I can see how people with AS have (affective) empathy but are struggling with (cognitive) empathy. And yes Pink some people without AS are also struggling to put themselves in someone else shoes. I think we all do to a certain extent tbh (See the threads on MN about comments made by childless people to mums with a baby....)

On a another subject, do you think that AS can make it more difficult to people to have a 'discussion' ie exchange different pov on a subject, defend your pov (as explain why you think X) so that everyone gains a better understanding of a situation? It could be political or phylosophical. Or on a very practical pov, deciding where to go away on hols. Each year we talk about going away, I find it impossible to 'discuss' options with DH.
If I take the lead, I get the feeling he going along just to get very grumpy once we get there. If I leave taking the lead, nothing happens until the last minute. And then options are limited. I can't seem to be able to talk about what we can do with him. He gets monosyllabic and shuts down. No idea how to make it work atm.

Also, do you think that having a diagnosis helped both as an adult and as a child? I am thinking of ds here and I am still undecided as whether this is worth all the efforts (and unsettled times, both with him and with DH).

In my very humble opinion, Peppa, it's got to be worth it with DC. Feeling different is as hard for children as comprehending others' differences (they are not psychologically equipped for empathy.) Gaining the skills to explain one's differences to others, and to make the most of one's own potential, should vastly improve a child's life experience and future.

PrinceRogersNelson, I can completely relate to your post (see my earlier posts). A few weeks ago I was at the end of tether and had asked DH to separate as I felt so unsupported. I happened to see this thread and the behaviours led me to believe that DH has AS. I did just say it to him...but we were at crisis level. He responded very well, immediately did the online test which scored him in the high range. If I mention this to family they would surprised as he doesn't appear to have obvious symptoms and I think people assume "Rainman" characteristics but in DH's case it is more subtle. You only really know from being in a relationship with him.

DH purchased "Maxine Aston - AS in love" and read through it, he said he can relate to a lot within it. He shuts down when emotions run too high, he can't do empathy but is a kind person,he finds social situations overwhelming and only has superficial friendships and he is highly sensitive to criticism. From the book it seems that AS men tend to be attracted to strong, nurturing women with good social abilities.

In the last week DH has tried to be more supportive and since I have understood that it isn't deliberate I am also meeting him half way and my anger has subsided. DH has lots of great qualities, he loves me very much, he is loyal and is a great dad (he has fantastic levels of patience) and he's is very capable in some areas.
Great advice I had here was

1. to build up my internal energy levels and ensure I have a balance to DH through friends etc.
2. be more direct and ask for what I require

also knowing DH has AS I need to ensure that our family life is as stress free as it can be (currently we are doing a big building project) which is a recipe for disaster as it involves a range of emotions.

allaboutthename - I agree about meeting half way.
I am not sure if my DH would agree that he has AS. He did take the test without much fuss, but he scored below the threshold. I would probably have answered some questions differently though. For example he said he finds social situations easy. I don't think he does, but he has learned a 'script' which makes them easier for him. But I don't think he enjoys them like I do where I feel 'filled up' after spending time with people.

Maybe he isn't AS, however I think he is nearer there than I am and knowing that helps me handle things.
I explained to him in very simple, non emotive language that when he doesn't share with me then I find it hard to be close to him. He understood, said it made sense and has made huge efforts to open up. Because I need him to.
I have screamed and shouted at him before, trying to get an emotional reaction and got nadda.

I need to change the way I communicate with him as much as he needs to open up.

All I know is that reading this thread has really helped and knowing that if I communicate in a more appropriate way for him my feelings and needs are heard has helped a lot.

peppa yes we have similar 'discussions'. It gets played out (or not, as the case is mostly) nearly every weekend. I know if I suggest anything different to do I'll have to jump through hoops to make it sound worthwhile. So we tend to stick to routine, and things we know - and not do that much.

I also agree a dx is the most useful way forward......our ds2 is displaying traits similar to dh. Ds1 is noticing his brother is different, so for all of us to get to a level playing field would be very positive.

This feels like a mountain to climb to me. I'm now so used to any of our discussions going nowhere I haven't the strength to start them, but this thread has become so useful because all of a sudden the 'oddness' I've become used to as normal seems to be a shared experience among a lot of you....

allaboutthename and prince yours are another posts I recognise a lot of - not blaming and trying to meet halfway etc.

allaboutthename so so so good to hear of your Dh being "spoken to" by the Aston book. That's wonderful, that you are making progress as a family.

Hi again, submarinegirl sorry about the absence, very busy week with not much "me" time! Well- here goes - warning- its a long post!
It took quite a bit to get the diagnosis! It all came about because DHhad some "odd behavioural traits which at first i just though of as "his way" especially as he had had quite a traumatic childhood, it wasnt really until I read an article in a medical journal (I'm a nurse) that I began to suspectit was something more tangible. It gave 15 signs of possible apbergers, and said if you have 7 or more, this could be aspergers - well, DH had 13 of those 15, to some extent or other! I went to my GP to ask about this- and was told "everyone is looking for this diagnosis, its the new in thing!" but then he said "but your DH has some odd behaviour sometimes!" At first he wouldnt refer, but after a lot of nagging, and me also taking down an article and showing him various behavioural traits known to be linked with Aspergers, he finally agreed to make a referral to a clinical psychologist. It took one appointment for the expert to say "yes- he is on the autistic spectum, and leaning well into the "apergers" area."
For DH (as well as myself) it was a sense of relief to have a diagnosis, as he has always found it hard to fit in, and, although very good at his job, he moved firms often as he would have problems with other members of staff. He is now settled in a job he likes and is suited for (warehouse supervisor- a place for everything and everything in its alloted place!), and because of the official diagnosis he has the Disability Discrimination Act on his side, although, I must admit, his firm is good, and give him leeway when he sometimes make mistakes on the peer relationship stakes, as are most of his colleagues- they just know that "R is R, and thats his way" - hes now been their 7 yrs, the longest he has stuck at one job. Also, the fact that I am a very social person, and have encoraged him to socialise more, and also my friends are aware of his diagnosis also helps him, It's this rapidly changing childcare business thats got him stumped!

Ugh - just ignore the spelling and punctuation mistakes please- done on my ipod!

Reading back through previous posts i have to say I agree with alot of what is said - DH does find it hard to change his routine, and any spur of the moment things are lead and organised by me, he can get lost if in our largest local town and either we take a different route or get put in a diversion, it really stresses him out (we have lived here 15yr!). We can't do what I used to do a lot, which is take a different, longer more scenic route to somewhere- it starts him on the rant about "mystery tours that get us lost"- I am not lost, just taking a different route! In social situations, I take the lead, and if he gets too bogged down in the minute detail of a subject, if he is interested in a subject, he knows ALOT about that subject for instance- he can identify 99% of dog breeds, which owners of the rarer ones think is amazing - but then he will almost bore them to death with facts and figures, you can see their eyes glazing over, so I gently try to lead the conversation away to another subject. He does not like going to large social events where he knows few people. He can be very empathic at times but finds it hard to show that empathy, for instance, if he knows he has upset me or the kids, rather than tell us, even though money is tight he will spend money on "I'm sorry" gifts. He worries alot about trivialities, he when he gets really excited, he hand flaps unconsiously.I also have to realise that me getting over emotional or angry with him does not work, it just sends him running into a quiet place where he can shut us out- trouble is, even though I know this, sometime I just have to shout back at him, otherwise I will explode!

I also have to realise that me getting over emotional or angry with him does not work, it just sends him running into a quiet place where he can shut us out- trouble is, even though I know this, sometime I just have to shout back at him, otherwise I will explode!

So true......

Bubby, as Peppa says so very true.

DH & I have tried to talk about AS and the impact on me, he can discuss it for a period of time but then he has to end the discussion, it's all too much for him almost an overload that he can't handle. I do struggle to relate to it but I know it's genuine. My DS is hyper sensitive to noise, he actually feels pain, again I can't relate to this but I have to believe it as it has occurred since he was a baby. He is often the boy in the playground covering his ears because the noise is overwhelming whereas all the other children are happily playing:)

One factor which is making our situation more transparent is that my DD left home to attend Uni. She is NT however ds and dsd are most likely Aspergers so I now feel more isolated. I wonder if the reasonable balance of NT/ASmember in a family can be a coping strategy.

bump

I dont know about that, I'm afraid. Must admit, DS1 was starting to show some similar traits a couple of yrs ago, and I started to worry about him too, but this has since stopped, and I think he had just unconsiously picked up some habits from DH.
As I said before, our biggest problem at the moment is the DS's, and their rapidly changing emotional and behavioral challanges that most pre-pubesent and teenage children go through. They are behaving just like most of their friends of the same age, gradually becoming more argumentative, moody and monosylabic, (think Kevin from Harry Enfield!) wanting to expand their horizans and push the boundries, but also, in the next breath, still wanting hugs and loads of reassurance, but DH cannot cope with this easily, and often does or says just the wrong thing at the wrong time.

Oh yes, in mine and DB's teens huge emotional rows took place between me and DF (if I was crying, that seemed to mean to him that he didn't need to take what I was saying seriously), and DB and DF (theirs featured nervous giggling from DB - 'It's nothing to laugh at, DF would say - and DB saying 'Alright,alright' - 'It's not all right' DF would respond, of course in both cases DF got more annoyed).

This may not seem v encouraging, but we got to know the pattern at least. And I think DB and I turned out not too bad in the end