Can Asperger's look like emotional abuse?

[NotThemCrows]

I posted on here last week, concerned about my DHs behaviour. I have read the Lundy book (fantastic- huge thanks to all those who pointed me in that direction) and recognised some of the stuff in there.

Last night I had a 1 to 1 session with our Relate counsellor for the first time (had about 4 sessions together and DH had one by himself 2 weeks ago) and she thinks that my DH may have Aspergers.

This does make a lot of sense to me, he is socially awkward, no empathy, no emotional awareness etc.

Could his major problem be Aspergers?

I was just wondering if any else has difficulties with an Aspergers DH that feels like EA.

Either way he still has anger issues, has demonstrated unacceptable behaviour and I have totally had enough of his bs and want a separation.

I am just trying to make sense of it all (or am I making excuses?)

Thoughts please

Peppa have you told them he loves them? (see my first reply). Isn't this thread partly to help you help him find new strategies? We are all having a very productive group think, we aren't there yet!

Re the criticism thing. And my rather patchy employment record. I feel sorry for my employers, being unexpectedly confronted with a weeping woman in her 50's (other decades also applicable!) because they felt they should have a word with her about some aspect of her behaviour or work.

Sorry, just realized that my last post actually xpost with quite a few...

Pink No I have never done that. And this is one of the things I am going to do. Just need to find the appropriate time for that, esp with dc1 real thinker, very emotionally aware type of child (hence the fact it 'clashes' more with him than dc2). I really appreciated that input.

omm that's a nice way to explain. It can relate to the 'X might the right solution to you but it isn't to me. Y works better for me. And that's OK'. I have been quite factual about it too. A bit exhausting because it feels like I am teaching DH as much as I am the dcs...
I really like your comment about keeping factual rather than framing the critism! Something I will have to work on.

Interrestingly DH has shown me he can do the same than your H and come up with fantastic ideas I wouldn't have though of. Perhaps one of keys for us would be to find ways for DH to 'unwind' in some ways because then he is so much better to cope with the mayhem that is our house.

submarinegirl you have described my partner - OTT with the dcs, almost a performance rather than a communication - or monotonous monologues.

And you could say that's AS, but I would say the behaviours are narcissistic - because it is all about him. There is no questioning whether he has upset you or checking his behaviour to ensure he is not embarrassing the kids - he reacts with a kind of disbelief followed by self-pity that others dare to question his enthusiasm. And then during the fallout low times, is there any self-doubt, any 'what's wrong are you ok'?

We were recently watching one of those makeover programmes. A gory operation bit came up and me and dd shielded our eyes and screamed in fun horror. He then told us in detail what happened while our eyes were shut, laughing, as if it were funny. Sometimes his willingness to push things that bit further comes across as sadistic, he gains something from seeing our limits pushed. And perhaps that comes not from a congenital disorder, but from something he had to do to his tough mother when he was younger to get her to react to his needs.

I'm still not buying the Aspergers theory I'm afraid, but I'm also not wanting to blame him as being an evil monster. It's just the way he was brought up.

When I took the AS tests I came up quite high as well, (just below the AS level). But mine is more about not reading between the lines, not wanting hugs from strangers much, needing to be alone a fair bit. I have always overcome these issues to avoid upsetting anyone - I won't flinch from a hug, even if I don't like it.

And whatever the reason, AS, bad childhood, NPD, in the end it's about how it makes you feel. And how do I feel? Following the barrage of perspective that is mumsnet, I'm confused, extremely pissed off, but also not able to get out of the tangled web that we've woven together.

horse as you know I think my ex has both, and I have AS. I feel we have leaned on each other for support like two weakly plants, and have grown all tangled and knarled. As I have tried to grow and change, and he has not, I at least have become more self-supporting. It has taken quite a while to unweave our branches and I hope we can both thrive without each other.

Does he have any symptoms like face-blindness, dyspraxia, hyperlexia (over-learned reading) ie things that are associated with AS but not NPD?

horse
"There is no questioning whether he has upset you or checking his behaviour to ensure he is not embarrassing the kids - he reacts with a kind of disbelief followed by self-pity that others dare to question his enthusiasm. And then during the fallout low times, is there any self-doubt, any 'what's wrong are you ok'? "

Absolutely.

guess I've been dreading replies like this because I too am tangled up in a mess of thoughts, I can't make sense any more but I think I'll feel more powerful/in control if I thought he had As, rather than NPD.

I can imagine him being very hostile if I suggested he was basically being very self centred.
I think he's also hate to be confronted with as, which is why I've been on and off threads like this for months, trying to feel sure about what's going on.

I did manage to stop him playing football with ds1 in a really aggressive, nasty way, so at least he responds to what I say, (and he didn't seem to realise what he was doing....??) but I don't enjoy playing any games/sports with him - he is out to humiliate. There's no companionship, fun for the sake of it. Sometimes I think he doesn't like the type of person I am, and ds1 is similar, its as if he has to punish us.

My dh had a v happy childhood, solid in family and friends, (he was the only boy in many generations, so in some ways is used to being treated as special) but he's very chippy about his working class roots. I had a more sheltered upbringing, but a colder emotional environment.

I've said this before, but all these things have driven me to seek counselling - I am pinning all my hopes on that to come out the other end stronger, and more enlightened.

I printed off the thread a couple of days ago, and am going to try and do some kind of digest when I have time (and have printed off the rest of it).

I am hopeless at physical sport, as for board games and card games I don't play because I feel personally threatened at identity level if I don't win, or at least play optimally

The discussion is really interesting. I can't really lend any insight on the question of partners on the autistic spectrum. However, my brother was high functioning autistic. He was 'trained' quite rigorously in various aspects of his behaviour. This was before there was widespread knowledge or medical interest in the condition, so we did it entirely in family. I remember gradually through his teenage years he stopped violent and angry outbursts and attacks on the rest of us, as my mum gave him alternative strategies to manage his temper. We also trained him to give very funny hugs (stiff backed, with face turned right away), but eventually he could see why to do them as he could see they made us happy. He also liked to play the same songs endlessly, but when he was an older teen was able to poke fun at this a bit or would rush about closing doors apologising.

However throughout his life there was ongoing discussion with him of what behaviour would make his passage through the world easier for him and those around him. And he tried to understand and always took advice. He had great humility and willingness to learn. He had no idea why doing this made the family so happy, but eventually came to value our happiness.

The question I suppose is whether your partner is happy to accept this sort of guidance from you, and whether you can maintain a romantic relationship while offering this sort of support.

I am wrong, I remember he had a psychiatrist, who was very supportive, so not all in family.

The question I suppose is whether your partner is happy to accept this sort of guidance from you, and whether you can maintain a romantic relationship while offering this sort of support

Actually these are extremely valid questions and probably the bottom line of the whole issue AS/NT relationship.

If it helps thinking on this, as someone on the autism spectrum, I can certainly panic for England. In fact if there were an Olympics for panicking over nothing, I'd have won gold by now. But I really really want to learn how to be a good friend, good mum, good partner....and I love learning about the others around me. I'm total rubbish at reading stuff I literally can't see, and hearing tone of voice that I literally can't hear...but that's to be expected.

Autism/aspergers is nothing at all to do with someone being a nasty person who doesn't care what happens to others. That's not it. If a person is choosing to be like that, that's a personality disorder of some kind. Not autism. Alas, some diagnostic people didn't know how to tell the difference and in a few instances they mistook one for the other, which has made it even more difficult.

So, if a partner is deliberately hurting someone else and just won't listen to reason , that's everything to do with personality and zilch to do with autism. Acting like a toddler in emotional responses can be autism...but it's done out of panic, never out of manipulative intention to harm someone else.

What are some of the main symptoms of an Aspergers sufferer?

Three main things:

Desperate need to know what's about to happen and plan ahead, to the very minute, all day every day. Total panic if something changes unexpectedly.

Can't see people's body language, or hear tone of voice etc so we're rubbish at guessing what people need, emotionally. They have to say, really clearly.

For 8 out of 10 of us, our senses don't work the same way as other people's do. We sense things differently, often far too much at once - so we can be oversensitive or undersensitive to sight, sound, touch, taste, heat, cold, pain, smell....and get absolutely exhausted trying to cope with it all.

On the other hand, we tend to be loyal, very persistent, have a fantastic sense of social justice, truthful, and are said to be ten times more accurate than other people. So it's not quite like suffering, and more like having a brain that is wired up very very differently to that of other people.

All of this is generalising, as each person is a bit different.

With apologies for plonking in again with a potentially inflammatory remark ... Following on from reading this thread, I've looked up some of the documents I perused (obsessively!) while trying to understand what happened when I was with X2. I came across this statement: "Not all autistic people are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are autistic". I remember discussions on here with amberlight, when we talked about how the social difficulties suffered by an autistic child could lead to the split experience that characterises a sociopathis personality.

People with autism feel empathy, but struggle to make sense of the emotion or 'do anything' with it. Sociopaths either can't ever feel it or have shut it down, at an early age, so it never develops. I'm rather alarmed by some stories in here, describing cruelty for fun. That's not an autistic behaviour; it's a sociopathic one. (Please note I'm using 'sociopathy' in its current sense as an umbrella term for personality disorders marked by absence of social empathy.)

I maintain - as most here have agreed, including the autistic posters - that having someone in your life who causes you emotional pain, and will not or cannot change, is bad for your life and for your family. No matter the reasons. I wouldn't bother labouring the point, except that it's taken me ten years to get over a seven-year relationship. So I really understand the need to analyse the problem, find 'explanations' and look for some logic to the confusion. I hope that by posting a little, I might help somebody get on with it faster than me!

After all the analysis, you end up with the simple truth that no-one should force themselves to live a life that hurts. We usually need to satisfy ourselves that we did our best ... but there comes a time when you've got to make a rational, life-affirming choice.

I can't think of any evidence that all sociopaths are autistic. Nor that they are all blind nor diabetic nor all anything else. Autism is not a lack of empathy ;that is another myth. From recent evidence many of us are hugely empathetic, but our bodies and faces and deciding systems aren't working the same as those of others.A sociopath can analyse and decode someone and decide to do them harm. We can't. To be autistic means the sociopath would have to overcome the language-blindness we have, and would have our fear of change and our sensory differences. It could be that someone has both. But on current evidence way are standard sociopaths autistic.

Thanks garlic, I too have been summising that in the end it's how it feels now and the whys and wherefores are part of a process of understanding but if there is damage going on you have to recognise that it's there and stop tolerating it.

Fortunately I have never tolerated his behaviour, but it's driven me to tears, confusion and fury - my dcs also see where it's wrong.

He probably is AS but that his mother hasn't been able to handle it as a child and being the hard as nails 20-a-day, brought up by gran, single but always working hard, bad luck with men, mother that she is, it's all gone a bit wrong for my dp.

I'm not qualified to go into the whys and wherefores of autism and aspergers other than to assume that it's definitely not black and white, and I'm glad the observations that the misunderstanding of autism in children can cause huge problems with children because it is fundamentally a social disorder.

And that explains why I, like submarine and peppa, have been wavering between here and the emotional abuse threads. But this is the first AS thread I've been on and it has been extremely helpful (so thanks everyone!) to explain stuff.

Submarinegirl - I think your dp being the only boy in generations of women is almost guaranteed to encourage narc. behaviours, also a lot of pressure to be the man and represent manhood for the whole bloodline. On the other hand I was the only girl among many boys, and rather than turn into the spoilt princess I assimilated and played their tough games. However it only left its mark in a positive way - I can tackle things many women won't for instance.

Sub is it that you can't accept that yours is doing this deliberately? He probably isn't - his behaviour is rough and unforgivable but if he was interested in change it might be bearable. As it is, change is met with hostility and therefore you know where you stand - it's just not going to happen.

But one more question before you pack your bags - do you get on with his family? As partner of the 'golden boy' you must be under intense scrutiny and he may well be under pressure to bring home the golden girl and he may well be trying to pummel you into being one. His hostility might actually be their hostility enacted by him.

Whatever the reasons behind his despicable behaviour though, your dcs as always, come first. It won't do them any harm to give yourself and them some breathing space, take the toxicity out of the family for a while and see what happens.

Your dcs are 10 and 6, a very good age to move home if that's what needs to happen. When secondary school comes you will be more pressurised to stay where you are. You mentioned the youngest has anxiety issues - don't medicalise this, see it for what (I think) it is. Dad goes into anger meltdowns - he witnesses this, it's disturbing, he becomes anxious. Dad doesn't deserve to share your home if this is what he does.

horse
It's not the change that's met with hostility - it's the initial discussions, (one of the reasons I've been looking into AS -) he can't handle being 'criticised'. And my problem is I hate confrontation*, I have low self esteem etc so many incidents have not been dealt with when they should have.

This combination obviously has been no help.

This is the clincher though -
He has responded really well when I've managed to get the message through in a way that works, and he's actually not had a meltdown for a couple of years. He has adjusted his behaviour with ds1 and their relationship is much better.

For me it's been about recognising what triggers him, and either avoiding it or making careful plans around it.

I was much lower a few years ago when the dcs were much younger, as I said, I think he wasn't coping with the disruption etc etc. At that point I was wondering what my alternatives were, but now, I am far more optimistic. I am hopeful. I have no plan or intention to leave.

It is a slow exhausting process for me.(see *) . I appreciate your comments and time spent replying, but like all posters I have been posting the more extreme ends of behaviours to guage and compare them - in balance he is a fantastic guy who I still love deeply. Sorry if it has been coming across so bleakly.

I get on great with his family - they are completely down to earth, welcoming, non judgemental. Unlike mine, unfortunately.:)

amberlight I wondered what you meant by language-blindness? You think in pictures don't you, while I think in language?

Also I like change and am excited by it (except for moving house!) I also hate routine. My working hypothesis is that this is due to ADD on top of the AS.

I mean social language - spoken, non-verbal or otherwise. The incredible range of subtle signalling and use of words to convey layer after layer of social meaning, emotion, unspoken intention etc.

There's a new category coming out in DSM V for people who have social communication challenges but no need for routine, which I think they're called social communication disorder. I think it'll be related to the autism spectrum ones but be its own proper diagnosis now. Until now, there's been no way to split the two using the diagnostic bits available.

submarine yes I agree with you re the struggle with change.

garlic, you said
that having someone in your life who causes you emotional pain, and will not or cannot change, is bad for your life and for your family. No matter the reasons

I would disagree with that.
I think that if the intent is malicious, this should not be put up with.
But some behaviours do not warrant it. I believe that, on the contrary what is required is a change from me rather than putting all the blame on the 'hurtful' person.
Eg : DH will have blank face, without saying a word in some circumstances, for example when I talk about subjects he is uucomfortable with (or when he disagrees with me!). This can be taken in different ways.
1- This is EA. He is keeping me on a lead because by not saying what he thinks, I am always on alert, wondering what I should be doing. It is hurtful, unacceptable and will not change, only get worse.
2- This is PA behaviour. This is hurtful but might change (CBT has very good results with it).
3- 'This is as hurtful as abuse', said by my counsellor at the time. So no identification of the reason but I have the right to be hurt and this is totally accpetable reaction. DH should be changing as he should not want to hurt me.
4- This is AS. So I need to reframe my question, say it in a different way. I should not feel hurt (as this is not personnal). This will not change but I have the whole responsability for the situation.
5- What ever it is, I know the intent was NOT malicious. I do not feel this is a personnal attack This is AS) and therefore do not feel hurt. However, DH only is responsible of his own feelings (just as I am responsible of mines) and I am not taking full responsability of how he feels at all time so I am not the one to always make an effort and change.

In my case, I do know this is not malicious and I have chosen to go for option 5.
But you do need first to be sure that there is no intent to hurt (Obvioulsy you then need to leave).
But I would not agree that because one is hurtful, then the hurt you feel is only the 'hurtful person' responsability only. The person who feels also has a part to play.
Hope that makes sense!!

The most helpful thing I can say to the blank-face problem is this: Close your eyes and out your fingers in your ears and now tell me what you see when you look at someone and hear them. Using all the skill you have, guess what emotion they are feeling (with your eyes and ears out of action) and make your face come up with the right expression.

Can't do it? Were you being emotionally abusive?

For me, that's the same level of skill as I'm supposed to have when decoding face expressions I can't see and tones of voice I can't hear. What I feel inside may not come out on my face, because I'm totally unsure what to make of what little I can pick up from it all.

what helps me is this: "I am feeling really sad because it feels like you don't love me when you do X. I would really like you to say how you feel about me, and give me a hug". Now, that's a reasonable straightforward request that doesn't need interpreting. That's just one example, and just about me - so won't work for everyone.

But so often we really truly can't see you and can't work out how to make our faces do what you need. Blimey, it's SO not meant to be abuse, any more than if we were born Deaf and failed to respond to you whispering words of love in our ears.

So, be sure that what you're seeing and hearing is abuse and not disability.

I appreciate your reply, Peppa, and understand what you're saying. I disagree with your fundamental point though. My reading would be like your option 3 - and the rest of my take on it would be that we are not in our relationships to judge our partners. We're in them because they enhance our lives. When they cause us pain, they are no longer good for us.

In an earlier post, you described how you use your marital communication difficulties as a springboard for your personal development (hope I've paraphrased you all right.) Fair enough, and I admire your attitude. You're almost saying that any pain you suffer is a learning tool for you personally. I can't imagine you'd mean to prescribe that for every other person on the planet.

No-one needs 'just cause' to leave a relationship. "It makes me unhappy" is all the reason anybody needs. We are neither judge nor parent to our partners.

Going a bit awkwardly back to your point: If I pet a nervous dog and it bites me, the dog didn't do it out of malice. It was doing what came naturally. Had I known it was nervous, I wouldn't have petted it. But I wanted a friendly interaction and instead I got an injury. Whether I judge or understand the dog, I'm still injured.

Sorry, that was REALLY awkward! Hope I got myself across anyway? Need to rest

Amber, I did do that with X2 (after several false starts!) It kind of worked but he was an arse of low order, so nothing was going to work for long. He said he appreciated my TELLING him, and I believe he did. He went on to use what I told him against me, which is a whole other issue.

I have read (most of) this thread and so much makes sense to me.
I have a wonderful, caring husband who would do anything I asked of him. He is a great Dad (although can be short tempered at times and I have had to have words with him a couple of times about how scary he can seem to a small child), does not go out drinking, works hard and loves me and the kids.

But a lot of what people have said on here has rung such bells.

I don't feel emotionally connected to him. He would never bring up an issue with me. He feels that everything is fine. If I am upset about something he will just shut down totally. Will not (cannot) engage with me. Feels very criticised, we will talk it through in the end and he will change. But I don't want him to change, I want us to work out together a way forward.

But things that he has done wrong in the past he has rectified. He never used to call if he was going to be late. I would get so upset as it signified a lack of respect to me. He said he didn't call as he knew thought it best just to get there and didn't want to get in trouble! After years he has now learnt to call and does call, but I don't think he gets why, he does it because he knows I need it. Which shows he loves me, but he still doesn't get it!

He doesn't really have close friendships. He has a couple of old friends that he stays in touch with and is good in social situations as he has learnt the rules (he says his himself), but I know he is never really giving himself. It all feels very superficial IYSWIM?

We had a conversation the other day and he told me that he has worked out in his head how every situation will go. From talking to the milkman to how I will react to something. And if it doesn't go that way he is flawed and shuts down.

I was that anyone actually lived like that, but felt that for the first time in our 11 year relationship he had let me in a little.

I am a very emotionally person who has good empathy and has close friendships where we talk a lot and I feel very lost in our relationship at times and like I am shutting down sometimes. I worry that I am disengaging and unless he starts to let me in a bit it will just fizzle out.

Does anyone recognise or understand any of what I have said above?

I would love to talk to him about it, but how do I broach it without offending him? If indeed any of the above sounds like AS to anyone else?

God that's long - sorry.

I meant to say he is not blunt or rude. He is well brought up and polite, but again it doesn't always seem 'real'. It's more like a script.

He doesn't enjoy socialising but does so because it means a lot to me.

Pinkpussycat, I always thought I had ADD (until I realised girls could have aspergers) So the ADD side of me likes spontanaity and change, however the aspie side finds it really stressful (I usually end up with insomnia)

For example, I have a weekend trip with friends booked, and I am feeling super panicky about it. It is the social side that is making me panic - having to socialise, share rooms with people etc.

If it was a weekend away with DP and the DC I would be excited (no social pressure).