Can Asperger's look like emotional abuse?

[NotThemCrows]

I posted on here last week, concerned about my DHs behaviour. I have read the Lundy book (fantastic- huge thanks to all those who pointed me in that direction) and recognised some of the stuff in there.

Last night I had a 1 to 1 session with our Relate counsellor for the first time (had about 4 sessions together and DH had one by himself 2 weeks ago) and she thinks that my DH may have Aspergers.

This does make a lot of sense to me, he is socially awkward, no empathy, no emotional awareness etc.

Could his major problem be Aspergers?

I was just wondering if any else has difficulties with an Aspergers DH that feels like EA.

Either way he still has anger issues, has demonstrated unacceptable behaviour and I have totally had enough of his bs and want a separation.

I am just trying to make sense of it all (or am I making excuses?)

Thoughts please

I suppose everyone on this thread has had to do that.

My concern is dh's interaction. He doesn't mean to have such little empathy in his communications with others. But I know even from his interaction with me how difficult he can seem. He went to help ds with something at school the other day and a parent from another school complained (not directly about him but I know he would have been a factor) because he can come across really abruptly even if he doesn't mean it. Someone at work said this about him too. A lot of my friends from work can't stand him. He doesn't look them in the eye when he talks but he's still v loud and comes across as opinionated because he's not reading the emotional signals in the interaction. Sigh. Have just stopped him meeting my friends from work now!

I don't know if he has AS but it seems v likely to me.

ThePink, I have a question for you.

In your experience, would someone with AS have some awareness of the tone of voice they are using?
ie When Dh is telling off the dcs, it sounds like he is putting them down to me. I do not have a problem at all with the request but he always comes accross as if they have done the worst thing in the world (even when the issue is that dc has not put the lid back on the sugar pot...).

Until now I have gone along the lines 'He can not see when to give them some slack' but is it possible he can not see that the way he is talking is wrong?

You mentioned before the fact that sometimes AS people do not see the need to tell people 'they are nice, their dress is pretty blabla' because it is obvious to them so it must be to the other person.
Is that true too with your own dcs?
DH at the moment seems to communicate with the dcs only when something is wrong (and then we have the issue above) but never to say how nice/good/ lovely they are.

I have raised the issue with DH recently, telling him I could understand sometimes things are difficult, you can be tired etc... but he just doesn't say anything nice to the dcs and it is an issue. That he aslo comes out as very grumpy (to put it very nicely). I asked him if he was aware about it. He said No.

Peppa re tone of voice I think possibly there may be gender differences. Female AS are more likely to be aware that their tone of voice (and volume in my case) is wrong, than male AS (I would be happy to be told differently). Not that this necessarily helps much in trying to change the tone of voice/vol (see upthread for my ongoing struggle to get the grip of this myself)

I have always been aware that my paralinguistic communication (tech term for tone/vol etc) is off. Trouble is that if I have something to say I can't concentrate on the words and getting the pc correct at the same time. The best I can do, quite often, is to say 'sorry that came out a bit harsh, didn't mean it to sound like that'. I have explained and explained to my family but pc is so powerful that they seem unable to disconnect their automatic emotiional response to it.

DF sometimes couldn't form either words or tone of voice quick enough for the situation. I recall many a time at the tea table DF saying 'WO! wo! wo!' which usually meant 'the honey on your bread is dripping onto the table' or similar event.

I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of times DF gave a straight forward compliment. I can recall exactly what I was wearing when he did this once when I was 16 (blue patterned mini-dress, brown hold-ups :) )

It is because of this that I have made a point of telling the DC they look nice etc. It still wasn't quite automatic! I would catch myself thinking 'Oooh you look nice' and then think 'Oh I could actually tell you that'

AS people do a lot of monitoring of the world, just because it is puzzling. DF and I are very good at noticing small details that don't fit. I remember when kids were little and DF was visiting and looking through some school work of one of them. He pointed out the one mistake! That's the other thing, we find it hard not to point out the errors :)

Last thing on the pc. It is v hard to tell when someone with AS is joking. I really thought the dryer tone of voice I adopted was detectable to all - in fact it was detectable to hardly anybody! So I would come across as po-faced when I was actually joking... This can be overcome, by exaggerating the intended tone of voice, which feels weird for me but seems to work.

Thanks Pink. It does help.

Wrote a long answer and decided not to post.

I need to do more thinking on that one....

exaggerating the intended tone of voice, which feels weird for me but seems to work. - That's interesting, Pink, it's the same thing when learning how to pronounce a new language :) Something to do with getting your speech muscles round an unfamiliar pattern.

I've got lousy volume control, too! Until my twenties I spoke inaudibly; didn't realise but it was the outcome of being told to stay quiet through childhood. Work sent me to a voice trainer, which fixed the 'whispering' but left me with a tendency to boom-box as I get excited about things (or drunk.) I do the same as you - warn/apologise - but your posts are making me realise it's probably a hangover from so many as/pd interactions. Thank you!!

I hope lots of Aspies are reading what you said about positive feedback. It's a small thing that can make a big difference. Reminded me of the apocryphal stories about blokes who say "Of course I love you, I told you so in June 1981"

Pink, you've alluded before on the most difficult part of your childhood with your DF.
If you don't me aksing,
what would be the one thing you would have changed if you could?
do you think it would have been easier if your parents had divoprced when you were little?

I do feel responsible for his ways with the dcs and can not decide if this is really out of the acceptable or not, whether I should step in or not.

Without a doubt I wish I had known for sure that DF loved me. I know now he could never have shown it through hugs. And here is the hopeful thing, I think. If DM had told me, herself knowing it was true, that would have done it for me.

In our particular family divorce would have been v painful, because of DF's pain which he would not have been able to hide. His distress when she left was bad enough (I was in early 30's, DM was 55, DF was 65).

One way my dh frustrates me is he rarely talks 'normal' to any of us. He's either putting on a children's tv presenter voice with the kids (ie totally exaggerated and patronising), or he pokes fun at what I'm watching/listening to/ doing....it's as if he's desperate for our attention, to be centre of our attention, but he is clumsy in the way he does it, and I feel he takes over our 'space', by doing this.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Ring any bells?

If I/the dcs point out he's doing it (or if I point out ANYTHING that I'm not pleased with - he's completely WOUNDED, and makes us all feel guilty, and petty.

Despite my many protestations, he wouldn't (couldn't?) hide how he felt. As a result the dcs came to me more often, which seemed to exasperate his feeling of isolation and frustration.

But his expectations of us are high, there's not much humour, or slack, or acceptance or reassurance that who/what we are is just fine.

As I've said before, I have emotionally withdrawn myself , like a few other posters, until I can a) get myself in a better frame of mind, and b) figured out how to talk to him.

I feel utterly clamped - I have no voice.

I still have no real idea if this is AS or self centred/spoilt person.

I'd feel relief if it is As, then it would explain everything that I find baffling.

If it is As then I want to help him, and the dcs, get to a better understanding of what we can all expect.

Like others who have posted, it was mainly after having dcs that the traits really became apparent - maybe because of the lack of routine, control, predictability......

Sorry, I'm not offering much help/feedback to others at the mo. Still confused, looking for a more concrete 'diagnosis'
Started reading Tony Attwood. Maybe more insight to come.

Submarinegirl, my DP puts on a fake DJ voice all the time, and when he isn't putting that voice on, his voice is very monotonous. That is one of the areas I really struggle with (even though I am on the spectrum myself, my voice is quite expressive)

Hi asdevil thanks for the response - are you both diagnosed professionally, or have you self diagnosed? Sometimes I feel so arrogant for pursuing this line, dh has no idea....although he commented I was on 'mummy's net' a lot lately......(rolling eyes)

One way my dh frustrates me is he rarely talks 'normal' to any of us. He's either putting on a children's tv presenter voice with the kids (ie totally exaggerated and patronising), or he pokes fun at what I'm watching/listening to/ doing....it's as if he's desperate for our attention, to be centre of our attention, but he is clumsy in the way he does it, and I feel he takes over our 'space', by doing this.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Ring any bells?

Submarinegirl - YES it does for me!

I've changed names just to say so.

I've been trying to figure out for years what's going on - it drives me crazy when DH does this. He's either got a silly voice, or a funny/sarcastic one - making fun of me, or else he's filling my head with information or being negative.

He will only very occassionally talk on a level - in a genuine way.

I think he's on the spectrum.

Submarinegirl - sorry I didn't put what you said in quotes - I was a bit too eager to to get down YES!!

Hi, no not diagnosed, we only realised recently when it was flagged at school that my son has issues (hfa or aspergers according to the Paed, he has one more assessment to go until he can be formally diagnosed)

I'd say, I am more on the spectrum than DP (sensory issues all my life, plus a social phobia that started when I was 7). I realise that I am hyper sensitive to criticism and find physical affection very difficult, but I am happy to discuss problems logically (and will try to work on my 'issues').

DP just seems to have a few traits - so not sure he would ever get an official diagnosis

Another one - do you have to macro manage his life to keep the peace, and avoid character assasinations??

example today - ds2 wanted his scooter brought home from school this morning - not chained up at school. Dh took him up, but (as usual - no communication) didn't tell me he actually did lock it up and leave it there...as he went on to work he also didn't say the key wasn't in ds2's bag.

Luckily I noticed that the scooter wasn't in the porch, and the key was hanging up and retrieved said scooter no bother.

However - if I had locked up scooter without mentioning it, dh would never have checked for the key - then it would all have been my fault and he'd be very annoyed at MY character weaknesses, because I didn't pass on that information.

That's what I mean about no slack, no humour, and no acceptance/reassurance for me.
My attitude - these things happen - deal with it and get over it.
His - these things can and must be avoided

asdevil - hypersensitive to criticism....for me that's the killer.

I just can't talk to him - I'm now too anxious about his response being defensive - hostile - aggressive- and me never getting a word in. He also goes off like a machine gun - there is no reasoning when he's like this. :(

I think I used to deal with it better many years ago, but I'm worn out/down now

The defensiveness wears me down as well. And he will go off like a machine gun sometimes if I am expressing a difference of opinion on something.

Yes, I'll admit to that, but once something is in my head, it just won't go, it's like a loop going around, and I have to keep verbalising it. Argh, I really do want to be a nicer person.

If I/the dcs point out he's doing it (or if I point out ANYTHING that I'm not pleased with - he's completely WOUNDED, and makes us all feel guilty, and petty
Despite my many protestations, he wouldn't (couldn't?) hide how he felt. As a result the dcs came to me more often

Yes and Yes. And the reason for my initial post today.
And that's with me being very calm and unemotional when I talked to him....

The difference being that he isn't getting hostile or defensive. He just gets quiet and stares at me.... Interrestingly, I asked him if he had anything to say. He said No. Then I asked if it was something unspeakable and he still said No. Like if he was hurting deeply but then his mind just goes blank (and just the hurt is left??).

Pink thanks for your input. It gives an idea of what I can do to make some things better fore the dcs (and DH).
As with divorce, I think DH would be really really hurt by it. At least that's my take seen his reaction when we nearly split up.
It is so strange that separation feels the wrong thing to do but at the same time, it feels like the current situation isn't right either. Or at least it isn't for the dcs.
I suppose it goes back to the question horse was asking before. Some behaviours are not to be accepted. But which ones?

Taken I have learnt that if I express a very different opinions, then I am likely to get sarcastic comments (and God did I get them when I went back to Uni to study out of the wood subjects...) but after a while, DH seems to get use to it, accept that I am keen on whatever it is and might even accept it himself!
Takes years though...

Lots to say, may take several posts.

Peppa re divorce. By the time my parents got married DM knew in her heart of hearts she didn't really want to marry DF. But was v young, not v assertive and desperate to get away from her mother. From an early age I knew she wasn't v happy. Divorce wasn't an option, really - it was the olden days and she also takes her marriage vows v seriously (they are still married in fact) I think that in a parallel time line that she maybe should have divorced him, and that despite the pain of it we would all have survived and things would have been ok.

DM wouldn't unwish me or DB. However, she realises her life would have been different had she been at 21 the woman she was at 55 iyswim.

But that's life [winlk]

Submarinegirl - I cannot tell you how many times I have said out loud or thought 'I HAVE NO VOICE'. I often just completely withdraw because it's simpler.

Even if I am talking to dh, I know he isn't listening. Even if he might be listening, I know he isn't hearing what I am saying.

Dh is so hypersensitive to criticism and not even that, even implied criticism or criticism of his mother or anyone in his family. It's like he views all of them as one and the same.

The only way I have found my voice is to do what I want a lot of the time and not think about his needs which seem ever present in the marriage because he is always inflicting those on everyone else!

I really got the message through about constant criticism.

Early on, I kept a criticism list. Every time I was criticised, large or small, I wrote it down in a little notebook. I explained that it was so I could try to keep track of all the things I was supposed to be doing - not defensively or argumentatively, just rationally.

That got through with volume of criticism.

And then we went through a phase where I was quite explicit about just because X is the way you would do something, it doesn't mean that X is the only valid way to do it. And even if X is the best way for you, that doesn't mean it's the best way for me (and it's important to respect someone else's different ways of, say, interacting with the children - presumably what they are doing is the best they can manage right now - not condoning abuse, but saying that no-one gets up in the morning thinking "how can I be less than I can be today?")

And then through a phase of saying that even if I am convinced of something, I tend to improvise rather than follow set scripts, so I make no promises about following this wonderful idea in the future.

It works really well now, but it did take a while to get to that place.

I work really hard at pointing out facts rather than framing criticism, because I know it's hard to hear constructively. But even then, it's important to wait until the crisis is over. Children screaming, Dp leaves the room. I think "oh fgs, why aren't you comforting them? Or trying to help" and then 3 minutes later he returns with something completely unexpected which stops everyone in their tracks and the crisis is over (like a game or something). It's just that the communication isn't verbal, so I have to trust that the actions are sensible rather than being told so

My dh is also hypersensitive which seems to be a common trait. Having a slightly better week, it has helped to understand that I need to get into a better place, irrespective of the future.

Roses, I can relate to that one too.
I agree that you do need to make some space for your own needs too. I think that quite often, we are thought that thinking in this way makes you selfish. But this is only true in a relationship where both partners are able to or want to take the other person needs into account.
In DH case, I know he wants to but does fail to see the point (or sees it but struggles so much to cope that I am left wondering if it was a good idea to ask).

DH is struggling a lot with criticism (or with what he sees as implied critism). DH has been looking at my attempts to involve him in making decisions re our parenting as 'crticism' for a long time, mainly because my ideas were different or were coming from a 'This is not working well, we might to think about doing this another way' pov. Not the best when you have 2 dcs to parent...

Pink, there are two issues here though. Myself and what I am getting from the relationship. And the dcs and how damaging it is for them now and if we were to split up.
As it is, I can live that way with DH. I have made space for my own needs and organize myself to fulfill them in other ways. At least for most of them.
But for the dcs I am not so sure and this is the one thing I am really struggling with.