what is wrong with DH? Why is he so nasty?

[amigoingmadhere]

So this morning at 6.45 am (i.e. not particularly early in our house as have 2 young dcs) ds2 wakes up - I take him into bed for a few mins as is normal in our house, but then he wants to go downstairs.

I am pregnant with dc3 am feeling completely shattered some of the time (i.e. this morning) so asked him to ask Daddy to take him down.

Cue DH screaming "Get the hell out" to ds2 (ds1 was already in our bed as was under the weather and needed some tlc) and screaming "YOU LAZY COW" to me several times. Even though I said that I was pregnant and therefore really tired and that it wasn't particularly early, and that I hadn't slept for some of the night due to ds1 being up and I couldn't get back to sleep..

btw, I work full time, quite long hours and do all the cooking, cleaning, shopping etc. (although we do have a live-out nanny during working hours) .. so how I can be a lazy cow doing basically everything at home, working full time, looking after 2 dcs and being pregnant is beyond me! He hasn't apologised all day. Later he said that I was "like one of those fat women who won't get off the settee all day" -which he repeated several times. In fact, I don't think I ever even sit down on the sofa for more than two mins as am usually busy working / tidying / playing with the dcs etc etc. Whereas he doesn't do a thing around the house (although does play with the dcs) and frequently sits on the sofa for hours.

I don't know what to do. How can I leave him with 2 young dcs and a third on teh way?

OP another symptom of antisocial personality that you describe to a tee in your DH is the impulsive and unpredictable nature of his behaviour . These traits will be far too entrenched for him to ever change.

Hi Op so sorry for you. I am another someone who recognises everything you say...as if it happened to me...because it did. And then he turned on the DCs (around age 7), and then it escalated and it took me 13 YEARS TO GET OUT.

I really really recommend that you go to the top of this thread and look up some of the web links and read Lundy Bancroft's book "why does he do that?" as rec by bejeezus further back down the line.

You sound like a caring, loving, helpful, intelligent person, who thinks more of others than of herself. If like me you need information before you act then have a look and get some advice then decide what you want to do. PM me if you would like. I am out and safe now, although his behaviour still shows why i am out but at least i can email in private!!!

PS. The "nicer" man who you sometimes see is why you stay. no-one would be treated badly absolutely all the time. Abusers know this. it's the way they operate...and yes, he does know what he is doing

I have lurked on these sorts of threads for quite a while now (on and off), and I have seen that thread foolonthehill, and have heard of those books.

Just looking at the link to the verbal abuse checklist - I could tick off every single one without hesitation.

Have never read the books as too scared to order online in case he sees the package, and haven't seen in the bookshops near where I live or work.

I think there may well be a touch (or more) or narcissistic personality disorder going on here - although haven't read too much about it.. and I know that that is unlikely to be cured or improved as by nature the person will not want to admit or change themselves. But is there anything that can be done at all to at least try to improve matters?

and thank you everyone for your views - although I haven't commented on most of them I am reading them and taking them in.

maybe I could get bookshop to order the books in??

I think there may well be a touch (or more) or narcissistic personality disorder going on here - although haven't read too much about it.. and I know that that is unlikely to be cured or improved as by nature the person will not want to admit or change themselves. But is there anything that can be done at all to at least try to improve matters?

Yes. Leave him.
Staying enables. As long as you stay he will not change.
I do know this.
I spent 22 years trying everything to 'help' him and 'us'

Divorcing was the absolute last step for me. I fought and fought.

You have two choices here:

1. Stay and accept your lot
2. Leave and make a better life

you have to remember that your DC are also accepting 'your lot'

But wouldn't it also be my duty (as a parent) to try to make things better (i.e in practical ways - therapy, whatever) rather than to just leave?

Yes books are easy to get hold of..your library may have them (although they do tend to go missing frequently...unsurprisingly) Lundy does not scream "get out" at you, he is very aware that this is your life and you are living it...he gives information and space to allow us to make our own choices...even gives helpful advice on coping whilst staying, and protecting children etc.

Amazon could deliver to your workplace or a colleague/friend if that were appropriate.

Bookshops can order for you to pick up...

You are in an awful situation and if you are like me the realisation of what I had been putting up with and covering up (mostly EA and VA) was a terrible awakening....stick with it. you can take your time, read learn and plan. be careful, cover your tracks online, just in case.

'It's just so unpredictable - there is nothing even discernable that triggers it - other than I guess he realised that yesterday he overstepped the mark and was somehow trying to make up for it without admitting any guilt.'

So you can never relax, can you, because you do not know the day nor the hour. He is playing games with you. He knows how much to yank the leash.

He is probably not torn up by any sort of guilt. He is far more likely feeling like Mr Awesome Husband for 'letting' his wife have a couple of naps, and slapping himself on the back for being such a Mr Hands On Dad. You will pay for the 'niceness' at a later date when he feels you are not being grateful enough, or being uppity. He is banking the 'niceness' for a future day when he needs another ego trip in other words.

And of course if he meets friends while he is out with the children he will tell them that he is taking them out so that you can get some rest, making all sorts of noises about you needing rest because of your exhaustion after dealing with the children when the nanny is off. He will come off looking like a flipping saint while you will look like a pathetic incapable mess.

I agree with those who say your DS wants validation of his feelings of not liking his father, of finding his father frightening.

Please go to your GP and get tested for anemia. You should also realise that dealing with a man like this is going to exhaust you like nothing else will.

My exH could go from zero to 90 in 60 seconds flat and I never saw the rage coming. I felt in the end that I was being destroyed.

'But wouldn't it also be my duty (as a parent) to try to make things better (i.e in practical ways - therapy, whatever) rather than to just leave?''

No. In a nutshell.

It is his duty as a husband and father not to be a psycho.

It is your duty to take to the lifeboat with your children. Forget about patching the boat.

I have been on MN for many years and I have never posted in Relationships ... but your OP has made me want to. I know you say he can be nice, but what you said in your OP is so awful. Your children are getting a dreadful message, and he is a bullying little shit to you and to them. Please leave (I have NEVER said that, in RL or here).

You're not the problem, so no amount of therapy will make this better. My father is like your DH. He was an arsehole then and he's an arsehole now, except now I don't have to live in fear of his moods and rarely visit. My mother made her choice.

BTW
your therapy won't make him change

your behaviour won't make him change

you will always wonder when the next eggshell will break

your children will always know how he treats you

Therapy is great, supportive, interesting, life-changing...but it won't make your situation different, if you are blessed it might make you more able to deal with it or feel strong enough to call time.

IF he is able and willing to change he will probably only do this if his world falls apart, otherwise it works just fine for him so he won't. He can change with you gone, you can give him a time frame (I did) to show concerted, sustained and lasting change..my "D"H instead escalated his behaviour, his choice. Your DH may choose better, go on an abusers programme and become the man you want him to be. You could see your ultimatum as providing him with the opportunity to be the man he could be......

whatever you decide we are here for you.

It's your duty as a parent to try to ensure the best possible role models for your children.
It's your duty as a parent to protect your children from emotional abuse.
It's your duty as a parent to encourage your children to treat all people with respect.

It's your Hs duty too, but he clearly isn't going to fulfill those duties...and it would seem that you won't either.

When your DSs are teenagers, will you be happy for them to talk to you in the way that your H does?
When they are adults, and have partners of their own, will you be happy when they are abusive towards them?
If your DC3 is a girl, will you be happy for her to be emotionally abused by her partner for her entire adult life?

Children follow the example that the adults around them give them...what you need to ask yourself is if you're happy for them to copy the example they have now.

HE WILL NOT CHANGE.

Thanks foolonthehill - can't order to work as they tend to open up packages, but think I could get bookshop to order in. And thanks for understanding that it isn't quite as simple as leaving this very second.. I will need to think, read, learn and plan..

Mathanxiety - you describe the situation to a tee. He has a thing about saying how 'ungrateful' I am - which is completely untrue! (a) - I am extremely grateful for everything that I have in life, from family to friends, to job, money, etc etc. (b) I don't recall having ever really asked for much - not help, not money, not even love.

He totally ends up looking like a saint and the perfect dad, when he takes the dcs out on the weekend so that I can have a rest - this is usually because he has refused to get out of bed at night / in the morning / help with anything / tidy anything etc. etc. so of course I need to have a rest after dealing with everything else! I also have to preserve some energy for the evenings as it is always me that deals with the entire dinner / bath / bedtime routine / tidying up later.. and I want to have the energy to be lovely with the dcs by then, not totally shattered by the rest of the day.

Re anaemia - I was anaemic with the other pregnancies but had blood tests at 12 weeks, which they said were fine. But maybe I should get checked again -thanks. I think also that as well as general pregnancy exhaustion, plus working ft and looking after the dcs, the general lack of emotional support (and practical support, and love / physical support) is draining in and of itself. Who doesn't feel 100 times better after a good chat with a friend / parent etc., let alone an actual date or any kind of romantic excitement! (none of which I get from him).

Others have said this up thread but I want to say it again: this man is harming your kids.

Would you let anyone hit your kids? Would you let anyone scream at them for no reason?

So why do you let this man treat your children so appallingly. His behaviour will be causing them lasting damage - so no, you shouldn't stay and try to 'fix it'. You should leave and try and fix them, before it's too late.

That kind of volatile, unpredictable, cruel and utterly bewildering behaviour (to an innocent child) - the screaming at them to 'get out' - it makes my blood run cold.

You're their mother. Protect them. This is not just about you and him, it's about you and them.

foolonthehill - re therapy, I wasn't thinking that any therapy I could have would change things - I was asking whether there was anything he could do (in the unlikely even that he agreed to it)? - i.e. you mention an abusers programme - what is this? Are there any that you can specifically recommend?

Obviously he would never go to such a thing, but maybe if we moved out and it came down to the ultimatum of him doing it or it being over forever then maybe he would? and does anyone know of any success stories?

ami you cannot change him. Only a particular type of person would behave like this (which is why I asked you if you could imagine doing so)

Only penalties will make him desist and they will need to be enforced continuously. The minute you are vulnerable, tired and relax the penalty, he will return to same behaviour.

It would be impossible to maintain that level of resistence to his behaviour and you will give up and resign yourself to it.

You are also not his mother, private counsellor, enforcer, trainer, therapist etc. A relationship is about give and take. You will run out of 'you' to be able to give enough because this man will need more and more and more.

You are so right that you need to plan and stiffen your resolve. But you have to start, and not put it off or be distracted.

There is no perfect time to initiate the process of separation and divorce.

It is a prospect akin to Beechers Brook when you are looking at it, and wondering if it's worth it/whether some miracle will prevent the inevitable/whether a bit or rearranging the deckchairs will result in a different outcome or just putting up with and enduring it will all seem more palatable than running at it full tilt and jumping. Running and jumping is the only choice here, really.

Please read the Lundy Bancroft book. It is a sobering epistle.

(After divorcing, people asked me if I had had my hair done, if I had lost a ton of weight -- all sorts of questions to which I answered an honest 'no', but the difference inside was clearly visible to them. And I had energy.)

Do you have any knowledge of people who live with alcoholics?

They are desperate to stop the self destructive behaviour of their partner. They love their partner and put up with all sorts of shite hoping for change. Partner accepts faults and promises change but always slips back. More shite accepted in the promise of future change. Repeat.

Eventually the non alcoholic realises that nothing they do can stop an alcoholic. The change has to stem from the alcoholic and they will need to really want that change. Whilst someone makes their life possible by picking up the pieces and tolerating the shite they have no motivation to change.

Google co-dependancy

In fact don't google -here t'is codependency

Read the Lundy Bancroft book on the subject of abusers' therapy and success stories.

Most programmes are simply academies where abusers get better at abuse, better at manipulating professionals, and better able to find buttons to press.

Amigoingmadhere, if he wanted to stop he could do it today.

The best abusers programmes are run by or approved by respect. they also have telephone advice lines for perpetrators (not 24 hour).

Sometimes the probation service know of local specialists too.

For you to know, any therapy he engages in must use you as a "touch point" ie all information on the relationship must be checked with you by the counsellor. If they don't do this then they are going down the individualist route and will only validate his own perceptions not challenge them.

Often the abusers hide behind the "I've got a bad temper" lie and end up on anger management courses. This won't work (unless anger is a separate issue-in which case he will need both therapies).

Bancroft has had some success stories but it is not common, the earlier in their lives these men get challenged the more likely to change they are.