How many of the men in your life have used prostitutes, compared with how many who haven't? I'd like to ask for help or perspectives on this?

[aliasforthis2]

I'm a semi-regular poster but obviously have name-changed for this.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

I worked as a prostitute for 4 years and stopped/exited nearly 18 months ago. The reason I started working as a prostitute was because it was sold to me as a glamourous and easy way to make money. At the time I had many debts and was working minimum wage and living totally hand-to-mouth with no room for manouvere,if an unexpected financial burden hit like a bank charge, we would be screwed having to choose between food and electric. A friend worked for an agency and I'd seen Belle du Jour and naively thought it would be like that.

Anyway, I am now out as I just couldn't handle it anymore. A very small percentage of the men were ok but the vast majority did things like -
-try to take the condoms off
-have poor hygiene and refuse to shower first worried it would take up their 'time'
-try to get service for less money or even steal back the money
-try to force services i did not offer like anal
-be unashamed about the fact they were partnered or had a wife at home
-speak to me disrespectfully and patronising, saying things like "I want to get the most for my money" etc
-scrutinize my body and give me advice on how to look better or compare me either positively or negatively to other ladies
-try to take up mush more time than paid for deliberately
-sometimes maybe once a month i was assaulted leaving bruises or spat on or held in a house
-a lot of phone or text harrassment
-most wanted young women the younger the better ie 18-20. i'm serious when i say that this is what most men wanted - young and naive. I answered the phone for the agency sometimes and i'd say three quarters of the men specifically requested 'young' ie 18-21 , 25 at a push.Which I think is disgusting given most are in their 40s wanting as close to 18 as they can.

Obviously not every man did ALL of the above but I'd be hard pressed to find a man who did not try at least one of those things. I don't know any other way to describe it.

I have been single for a while, I had a relationship with a genuinely lovely man I met at my new work for a while (no red flags) but it ended as he became a complete workaholic when starting a company and we drifted apart and split 6 months ago.

Anyway the point of this thread is for me to get a more balanced perspective on men. I had counselling on the NHS for 12 weeks which was helping but they wouldn't fund any more. I have been told by sympathetic friends who are also ex prostitutes (not told anyone in 'real life') to remind myself that it's only a v.small percentage of men who use prostitutes/escorts. But I just cannot see it like that. Every man I see walking down the street I view as a potential customer of prostitutes and treated a person how the customers treated me. I feel like punching them sometimes for no reason. Every married man I know I wonder if they have went to a prostitute with their wedding ring happily on moaning about their wife. I find myself wondering if I will ever have a relationship with trust again. I don't live in a particularly big place or a travelling business place but the sheer hoardes of men calling the agency every day and booking was unbelievable. And more than half would have unsuspecting wives or gfs.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

Thanks x

Test

alias, those "reviews" are descriptions of rape. Oh for the police and politicians to take those comments as seriously as they do those about riots.

I do hope you and all of the other woman abused by men who pay for prostitutes (directly or indirectly) can find help available to move beyond your experiences. Alias and ohmetoo, if you want to PM me with your (very) general location, I am happy to make some calls and see if I can locate some help for you both. Totally understand if you'd rather not, but the offer is there.

Context is everything.

yes shagmund so it is

now re read the quotes above and tell us whether you think just because they are paying someone for sex, they are entitled to make those comments about another human being

you seem to think that because money changes hands, it is to be expected

nobody ever should treat another person like a piece of meat at a buffet

also, a midwife removing faeces from an arse is a useful thing, you could say an essential thing (in your "context") ...expecting women to submit to this dehumanising by Johns is not essential and should be unlawful

garlic...what sort of man still goes on to fuck someone whom he acknowledges clearly wishes she was dead ?

there is no name for a person like that

shag you made a helpful observation when saying I'm more than just my sexuality because we are considerably more than what we do or say or think at any given moment.

As for What constitutes vile disrespect'?^ IMO it is treating another person with contempt and/or forcing them to do something they do not want to do purely for our own gratification.

You've also said If you are selling sex you are stepping outside of the conventions which dictate the mores of normal sexual exchange No doubt you will agree that normal mores of 'sexual exchange' consist of knowing one's sexual partner for considerably more than a couple of minutes before engaging in a sexual act with them?

If you are implying that by becoming a prostitute the worker has agreed to participate in any sexual act the punter demands, this would be akin to going into a vegetarian restaurant and expecting the chef to provide a meat dish purely because the venue is selling meals for the consumption of its customers.

Some prostitutes cater for punters with bizarre requirements or perversions but those who don't, or who are expected by the punter to provide 'extras' without prior negotiation, are being treated with 'vile disrespect' if they are demeaned or otherwise denigrated for not complying with the punter's demands.

alias those reviews were so upsetting, but thanks for putting them on here, if anything it should wake up the people who intimated that a prostitute 'deserved it' as she was a commodity to be used.
I really feel for all sex workers. I hope this thread gives you and ohmetoo some feeling of support.

I know - but many of these punters rationalize it to themselves by calling them "poor providers" and making all kinds of excuses like "she came here for a better life and now she's making loads" or "At least I helped her by paying" "maybe she was just having a bad day" they use multitudes of excuses, and I'd be willing to bet MOST do go through with the sex and their orgasm in the absence of an actual admittance from the girl that she is being forced by an evil pimp (and the girl won't admit any force as she will be too scared) - they deliberately 'blind themselves' to the suffering because if they actually admitted it, it would dampen their own sexual pleasure - which has to be thee most important thing in the whole world. The exploitation side of things has to be kept hidden away because if it wasn't then heaven forbid these types of men would be deprived of their 'tight young pussies' and their status in society.

The replies to that "field report" were mainly commiserating the poor punter (!) although some men did mention going to crimestoppers.

some replies -

"Yet ANOTHER 'new' girl with no feedback!!! And you don't think you bring it on yourself"

"Save your Money mate"

"Okay, I wasn't there to read the nuances... but it seems to be there's at least a case to consider tipping police off via an anonymous phone call." (thank god some sense!)

the punter's response - "No I pay enough Taxes for them to do their own work in catching (in this case) petty criminals"

"Just because there may be some small scale corruption in certain areas of society, it doesn't give you an excuse to be inhuman." (woo hoo some sense again)

"As I have said above I don't help Police go after the small fry"

"My belief is he should call crimestoppers. Allowing an immigrant to work illegally should not be condoned be that a prossie or a chef in your local take away."

"what are the tell-tale signs of a trafficked pro$$ie? I am sure if it's a sophisticated operation the decor will be in good nick.."

Sorry for re-posting stuff. There is much more but I will leave it there because you get the gist, and it's not very pleasant for mumsnet I guess!

It is sickening though that such 'men' will only stop abusing women if they themselves risk getting in trouble with the law or outed to their wives. Not because of human decency.

Thanks so much for contributing too ChangeinBrief, i posted those quotes before I saw your post so I'm so sorry if I have upset you with them in any way

"I was working my first week in a massage palour. I worked for almost a year before I managed to get myself on my financial feet again. I hated every single second of it, and although I didn't experience any physical attacks"

I would probably say, although obviously you will know better than me, that the reason you did not get physical attacks (although you say did suffer mentally you said which is just as equally damaging) is probably because you worked with others - probably a maid or doorman. As you will probably know yourself, the violence escalates when the more unpleasant punters think you are alone and vulnerable with no-one to come to your aid. But of course the bodily fear and vile insults are still there.

I am happy you are now out, and again I'm sorry if I have brought back anything by posting those reviews when i did not know you had posted yet. I was trying to show the all-too-common reality to those who think it's just like buying a sandwich, but hope I didn't upset you x

changeinbrief thnk you so much for posting,and I am sorry your life was so decimated by your time on the sex industry

could I ask just one little favour on behalf of all of us on this thread though ?

please don't type the full word for sites likes P*net...the sad individuals who use those sites have been known to invade MN when they see it written here, I think they google for it's use

the last time that happened, there were an awful lot of people upset

does anyone know if MNHQ will edit a post ?

Alias, agree totally about working with others, and cannot understand why this continues to be outlawed. I think threads like these are so valuable in showing people the awful flip side of the "happy hooker myth".

AF - didn't even cross my mind, will report my own post to see if MNHQ can take the word out. Yup, I remember that last board invasion, awful, awful people.

thanks, CIB x

Well done on talking about this ladies, it's fascinating and quite moving at the same time. I wish you every luck in your endeavours to move away from the work and its legacy when you feel you can.

I only know one man who has admitted (to his housemate who was a mutual friend, not to me) to using a prostitute after a drunken night out in London. He was early 20's and he asked a rikshaw driver on a whime to take him to a girl and was obliged. It was an eastern european girl in soho.

I lost all respect for him after that, I can't look at him in the same way, he just saw it as a "dirty" shag and he did brag about it to his mate afterwards.. I can't compute it really. He must have known that wasn't what she wanted to do, that she was there out of desperation. As a human I can't understand how people can do that, there's got to be something wrong or missing with them (lack of empathy? dehumanising the girls?) that they think this is ok, that it's a two way, level deal.. it's not, it's really not. Sad.

Good luck and well done for your efforts so far.

the fact that it isn't a level deal is the attraction, IMO

you're probably right, there must be an element of needing to dominate/be in control that is nothing (or everything in some cases) to do with the sex itself.

the fact that it isn't a level deal is the attraction

Never thought about it so concisely, AF. Thanks.

"If you are implying that by becoming a prostitute the worker has agreed to participate in any sexual act the punter demands, this would be akin to going into a vegetarian restaurant and expecting the chef to provide a meat dish purely because the venue is selling meals for the consumption of its customers"

No - I didn't imply this AT ALL. Prostitutes - if they are working autonomously, are entitled to offer or decline any sexual practice they choose. The fact that some prostitutes are forced to do things against their will is a reflection of the fact that they are not protected adequately against rape and sexual assault by the law and by society, as other women are. This is wrong and I would like to see this changed.

The comments from the p board are loathesome. I knew this from reading them prior to coming on this thread.

But that's the nature of prostitution unfortunately. Men discussing women as though they are objects. But then women who are offering to rent their bodies for strangers to ejaculate on or in are dehumanising themselves - they are commodifying themselves. It doesn't justify men objectifying them, but it does help explain it.

"expecting women to submit to this dehumanising by Johns is not essential and should be unlawful"

What - even if a woman has agreed to do it in return for money?

I don't believe in the 'happy hooker' myth. I imagine that most women in the industry hate what they do and are damaged by it psychologically. And ditto women in porn.

But if women are willing to damage themselves in this way then why are the men who use them - as long as the sex they are engaging in is ENTIRELY consensual - so morally culpable?

if women are willing to damage themselves in this way - huh? They do it to themselves now?

Keep going, shagmund, you're heading towards that triumph of misogynism, victim-blaming.

Look, taking your point as I assume it to be ... I've had quite a few one-night stands. They were only one night because the sex and/or the personality was disappointing. I didn't enjoy them much, or I'd have seen the guy again. If one of them had hit me, forced a painful sex act on me or stalked me afterwards - would he have been within his rights?

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

(Someone with access to the "delete" button disagreed.)

Moonferret - why are you so insistent on making this thread about you? Go start your own if you want.

It's a debate..but views disagreeing reasonably with the "consensus" get deleted. It's not about making a thread "about me". Now add something more to the one-sided (censored) debate, rather than having a dig at me.

This thread is not a debate. Debates occur in Chat, AIBU, In The News, Politics etc.

The Relationships forum is where people come to look for emotional support with interpersonal issues. If you are unable or unwilling to provide that, then your contributions are unwelcome and inappropriate, as you have been repeatedly informed.

Incorrect. That is why no-one has "informed" me of that nonsense. It is a forum, and therefore reasonable points of view shouldn't be removed. Some people may wish to give "support", and that's fair enough. But the views of others should be respected, not censored.

MF...you can be medicated against that paranoia, mate, see your doctor ASAP

AF, you have been told on several occasions that you'll get no reasoned response from me, yet you persist time and time again. Why is that?