How many of the men in your life have used prostitutes, compared with how many who haven't? I'd like to ask for help or perspectives on this?

[aliasforthis2]

I'm a semi-regular poster but obviously have name-changed for this.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

I worked as a prostitute for 4 years and stopped/exited nearly 18 months ago. The reason I started working as a prostitute was because it was sold to me as a glamourous and easy way to make money. At the time I had many debts and was working minimum wage and living totally hand-to-mouth with no room for manouvere,if an unexpected financial burden hit like a bank charge, we would be screwed having to choose between food and electric. A friend worked for an agency and I'd seen Belle du Jour and naively thought it would be like that.

Anyway, I am now out as I just couldn't handle it anymore. A very small percentage of the men were ok but the vast majority did things like -
-try to take the condoms off
-have poor hygiene and refuse to shower first worried it would take up their 'time'
-try to get service for less money or even steal back the money
-try to force services i did not offer like anal
-be unashamed about the fact they were partnered or had a wife at home
-speak to me disrespectfully and patronising, saying things like "I want to get the most for my money" etc
-scrutinize my body and give me advice on how to look better or compare me either positively or negatively to other ladies
-try to take up mush more time than paid for deliberately
-sometimes maybe once a month i was assaulted leaving bruises or spat on or held in a house
-a lot of phone or text harrassment
-most wanted young women the younger the better ie 18-20. i'm serious when i say that this is what most men wanted - young and naive. I answered the phone for the agency sometimes and i'd say three quarters of the men specifically requested 'young' ie 18-21 , 25 at a push.Which I think is disgusting given most are in their 40s wanting as close to 18 as they can.

Obviously not every man did ALL of the above but I'd be hard pressed to find a man who did not try at least one of those things. I don't know any other way to describe it.

I have been single for a while, I had a relationship with a genuinely lovely man I met at my new work for a while (no red flags) but it ended as he became a complete workaholic when starting a company and we drifted apart and split 6 months ago.

Anyway the point of this thread is for me to get a more balanced perspective on men. I had counselling on the NHS for 12 weeks which was helping but they wouldn't fund any more. I have been told by sympathetic friends who are also ex prostitutes (not told anyone in 'real life') to remind myself that it's only a v.small percentage of men who use prostitutes/escorts. But I just cannot see it like that. Every man I see walking down the street I view as a potential customer of prostitutes and treated a person how the customers treated me. I feel like punching them sometimes for no reason. Every married man I know I wonder if they have went to a prostitute with their wedding ring happily on moaning about their wife. I find myself wondering if I will ever have a relationship with trust again. I don't live in a particularly big place or a travelling business place but the sheer hoardes of men calling the agency every day and booking was unbelievable. And more than half would have unsuspecting wives or gfs.

I feel sad and like I've seen things I cannot un-see.

So if you can be reasonably sure that your husband or partner or ex or other male in your life has NOT used prostitutes post please post here.

Likewise if any males in your life HAVE used prostitutes please post here too.

And also if they gave reasons for either doing it or not doing it or given their views on the sex industry please post them.

Hopefully it will give me a more balanced perspective than my current "all men are johns who did these things" and help my recovery.

Thanks x

Op- I think you're probably more realistic about men than many women. It's complex though.
I've worked and lived in areas where prostitutes are, and worked with young women(often children) coerced into sex trade. It's shit. They are treated like shit. And lots of married average men abusing them, shock horror. Society finds it much easier to blame women, drugs etc than to reflect on why and how we raise kids (pathetic pink girlies, inept grown girls, butcher strong boys etc) . I think implicit feelings that men are better are partly to blame.
I've also seen lots of partnered 'straight' men advertising for gay sex, or out on the gay scene. its really horrible. One bloke told me how he asked if it was a baby he could hear in the background while arranging to meet a man, and it was. the bloke I know stopped the conversation at that point, thankfully.

all men believe the hype about them having to do lots of sex, in my opinion.

like I said its so multi layered, no wonder you feel so bad.

I wouldn't presume to know whether the men I love have used prostitutes, I tend to be drawn to men who don't see gender roles as, say, the daily mail does. being a lesbian means its not something too close to home.

Jenny60 Thanks x

The counsellor did say that I needed to allow myself to feel hatred towards those men who hurt me, whereas before my mentality was.. just get on with it, you are out now, you chose it etc. But then the floodgates opened - incidentally mostly after the damn counselling ! but seriously though, now I feel I have taken the anger a bit too far and every man I see is a potential transference target. x

Well that's probably where you need to go before trying to work on trusting some men again.

Please ignore some of the unhelpful posters here. I think joblot is so right about the way we want to blame drugs, women etc... and not really deal with the fact that partnered guys, nice guys, dads etc.. are using prostitutes. If anyone doubts it, have a look at some of the evidence of trafficking, especially during big sporting events. Thousands of women are shipped in to service men at Olympics, Football World Cups etc... They're not all sad pervs, many are 'normal' blokes. What does this say about our society?

TYr, you are judging. The OP is not trying to excuse her behaviour and you have no right to ask her to: She's been raped ffs. No matter about anyone's views on prostitution on the whole, the OP was subjected to rape, assault, abuse etc... while doing her job. That's not on, no matter how or why she chose to go into prostitution.

Don't worry about hating, being angry, and seeing "all men" - they are natural processes as your mind tries to catch up, both with everything that's happened and with the change in circumstances. As you've said, you had to switch off your mind while all those horrible things happened to you. It was still registering, though, so once the experiences have stopped it makes sense that your mind will start fetching stuff out and looking for an appropriate way to 'file' it.

A similar process happens when someone's been in a car crash, say. It's all a blur then, later, the narrative takes shape and they'll likely go through a period of being terrified of car travel, considering all drivers irresponsible, hating car manufacturers, feeling sad and wishing they'd died, and so on. All perfectly normal: a form of grieving, really. As long as you're aware of the processes your mind is doing - and acknowledge them, as you do here and (I hope) elsewhere - it will eventually turn into something constructive. A good therapist can help you on a steady path through it all so please do keep knocking on doors for the right kind of support.

Recovery is a multi-pronged approach. It's not possible to tell your unconscious mind what order to do things in (you can try but it doesn't work), so it's good to mix up reflection time, rehashing old memories & feelings, building new and more helpful ones, just getting on with the blissful normality of life, and so on. Let your mind sift things out in its own way :)

Hi alias,

I'm posting really quickly because I need to go out. I'm in the same position as you with regard to perspectives on men; I have the same history as you but unfortunately I'm still involved in the industry. I tried to leave a year ago but couldn't get a job, so had to go back

I've been single for several years and like you doubt I could ever trust any man again. I'm amazed how many men use prostitutes, and how many come in and chat freely about how their wives, kids and family holidays.

Re. men I have known in RL. Well, my father was/is a real womanizer, terrible attitudes towards women, including violence. However he says as a matter of pride "I've never had to pay for it." I think a lot of men have this opinion, that it would be a black mark of desperation against themselves to use a prostitute.

One ex of mine used prostitutes from time to time. He told me a horrible story once. A streetgirl approached him and propositioned him. She was obviously desperate for the money. He bargained her down to twenty pounds. His excuse was, "I deserve a bit of loving." He was also a nasty guy, awful attitudes to women. He thought this story was entertaining and that his behaviour was acceptable. He never knew/doesn't know my history. I said how could you bring yourself to have sex with a woman who was clearly so unhappy and at such a low point. "Well she offered."

I know a lot of men like this, personally and professionally

I can't think of many men I know whom I can say definitely wouldn't visit a prostitute. Actually only one springs to mind; he has a healthy, respectful attitude to women, I don't think the thought would even cross his mind, even if he was lonely, in a 'drought', or whatever other excuses men typically use.

I too get text/phone harrassment, men trying to remove condoms, asking for things I don't do, overstaying time etc. Even regular guys who seem ok and whom I've seen for a while, eg I've just had to start blanking one who was clearly 'grooming' me for an activity I don't do and that he knows I don't do. He's been texting and emailing and clearly doesn't even realise he's done anything wrong. I had one guy (I don't see him now) who would spit in my face, slap me, force oral...then afterwards would lie next to me telling me how his son's doing in college, all about his daughter's new boyfriend. Actually I can't think of any one of my clients in 3.5yrs of working that doesn't disgust me.

One of the worst things they do is ignore you when you tell them that something is uncomfortable or hurting you. I read a quote recently from a working girl who said (to paraphrase) that most of her time is spent trying to stop clients hurting/damaging her while simultaneously trying to act like she's enjoying what they're doing. I can totally relate to that.

Someone upthread mentioned men buying into the 'happy hooker' myth and I think this maybe explains some male attitudes. In order to work and be successful and earn you have to manufacture the impression of hyper-sexuality, loving what you do, feeling always horny, being constantly experimental, and so on. You (we) tell the men this. I'm always saying to clients, "Oh no, I couldn't do this job if I didn't enjoy it." It's a lie - I do it because I need to pay bills. Some of them do ask, so I guess that counts for something. They (some of them at least) don't want to have sex with a trafficked woman or a frightened teenager. But what can you say when they ask if you're enjoying it? "You're repulsive and I just want to die." They'd leave, you'd go home with nothing. You have to lie to them, hence a vast number of men end up thinking that a vast number of prostitutes are thrilled and satisfied by their work.

Sorry haven't had time to read whole thread will definitely come back to it. Lots of love alias x x

ohmetoo Thanks so much for sharing your story with me. That was very brave. Your experiences have been almost identical to my own. Every word you wrote, especially about the bargaining, "grooming", text/call harrassment, spitting, forcing and not caring if what they are doing is hurting. It's so difficult to reconcile with yourself that these men have on wedding rings, talk about their children etc but have just done or are just about to do to the woman what you describe. This is how it makes you feel that all men are like this, or could be. Sometimes they would 'moan' about the wife being too fat or ugly or whatever and clearly be abusive husbands, but other times they seemed upstanding family men who just think that one class of women (the prostitutes) are disposable and non-human or worthy of respect. This is, IMO, why the woman-blaming attitudes (some of which have been on this thread) have to be stopped - these guys think it's OK because sometimes society acts as if prostitutes are dirty, bad women etc.

You are so right about the having to pretend we love it in order to get any money. Maybe it is some very small comfort that some of the men want to check you are not forced or trafficked, but cynically I can't help but think that it's just because of the new laws which came in last year which mean it's illegal for a man to buy sex from a woman who is trafficked or forced (even if he didn't know) so that may be why they are asking. I knew a lot of punters who would not care, who moaned to me that the previous girl they had seen last month looked like she hated it, or pushed him away, or told him she did not want to be there etc (I think well why did you use her too then!) It's unbelievable some of the excuses and justifications these men will conjure up to explain why they are essentially paying to rape (well perhaps not technically all of the time, but at least some of the time). Some of the comments on these punter boards are disgusting to me. I once read a report/rating on a girl where the guy wrote that he noticed when he turned her over that she had bandaging sticking out from her anus and some cloth material filling it - he observed that this must have been a recent injury from a punter doing anal, and then wrote of how he just carried on in a different position . These boards are full of stuff like that. Complaining with entitlement - "She looked like she'd rather kill herself than go near me"etc - what the hell are some of these people thinking

Anyway, I am sorry if my venting has disturbed you in any way - I just wanted to say I know exactly, exactly what you are saying in your post.

I really hope you find another job soon, or become ready to leave when you feel you want/need to. Or what about benefits for a while to tide you over? I know it's difficult to live on benefits especially if you have no children, but it should ensure you can eat and heat your home etc whilst looking for work. If there is anything I can do to help you for example find you a sex work project near you, then just PM me. x

Wow. I am astonished by this. I don't know any man who has used a prostitute. Or, more accurately - no man I have ever known in my life has ever told me that they have, nor has anyone else told me that they have and nor have I suspected from their behaviour or anything that they have. No man known by anyone I know has ever used a prostitute - or rather, nobody in my life has ever told me that anyone they know has.

And I've lived in a lot of places and met a lot of people.

So either it is clear that I am the sort of person who would have something to say about it, or I have somehow managed to associate exclusively with people who don't.

And I feel dirty typing 'used' a prostitute. I know that's the terminology, but what an awful phrase it is. I can't articulate exactly what it is about it, but it just feels an awful thing to say, like the prostitute is - not human somehow. if that makes any sense.

I can't bear to read field reports (even on the sites I advertise on), they are grotesque. There's a definite theme of clients writing bad reports about women who would not agree to having their boundaries broken OR who did submit to the breaking of boundaries but failed to 'enjoy' it enough.

I think the real ordinary family men types are more scary, at least with regard to thinking about men in general, our own future relationships etc. At least if a man is openly woman-hating you know he's wrong-headed, damaged or has a disordered personality. The married men who say they adore their wives (who are the more numerous in my experience) are frightening. They make me think that I could quite easily hook up with someone in the future who ostensibly adored me but who was seeing prostitutes weekly or monthly without thinking there was anything wrong with it. It's so, so, so common.

Have to add someone else I know who would not use prostitutes is my brother. He'd probably disown me if he knew what I did. His attitude is that prostitutes are 'dirty', all junkies and riddled with disease.

Re. exiting the industry, I did try benefits - I quit just before Christmas last year, went on JSA with a wonderful lone parent advisor. I didn't tell her my past but I said it was something I wasn't proud of and that I couldn't put on a CV. I have a lacuna years long on my CV, nobody would look at me, in 4 months I never even got an interview, for anything. I don't know how people live and raise children on benefits, I couldn't manage it and I never spend money. I don't smoke, drink, or go out, ever. I haven't even bought clothes this year, even having returned to work. Can't afford to.

PS Your OP didn't disturb me it was like reading my recent life story. It was good to read it. I'm not friends with anyone else in the industry, have one friend who knows what I do, got nobody to talk to about it. I read a lot of sociological/feminist studies of the industry, but apart from that....It was really, really good actually to hear someone who shares my views and worries for the future.

I share your worries too but I don't know what else to say except that I am really sorry that you've had to go through this and also that I hope you can get out. I know it's not easy, I really do, but I wish you strength. I simply cannot understand why so many people think prostitutes are scanky, while turning a blind eye to the disgusting men who use them. Would punters work as prostitutes? Would they want their daughters to? My DH did some research work with 'punters' once and he told me the sense of entitlement was incredible. It made him sick and me too, and very, very angry.

You are both obviously incredibly brave women and I hope you can funnel that resolve into sorting out better futures for yourselves and your kids. Keep posting if it helps and do think about positing in feminism for added support if it would help.

Going to prostitutes doesn't stop the men who do it from getting and keeping jobs. Just the women they use. Which of course keeps them as a steady supply to be use because they have no other means of support.

Ohmetoo, have you thought about lying on your CV. In this instance it would be acceptable. You don't have to tell anybody about what you have done.

I could lie on my CV but I have no references and nobody to do fake references.

My child is the main reason I feel I cannot seek support. I imagine going to my GP and asking for counselling or advice and GP phoning social services and them taking my child away because I am a prostitute.

Believe me I would love a normal job or a career. I have a First Class degree, I'm not a mindless idiot, I'm intelligent and I like to have a busy and purposeful life. I fantasise about walking to work wearing ordinary work clothes, buying a coffee on the way to the office, having friends there etc.

I have a child who is already asking what I do for a living, and I have to lie. And I imagine a time when that child finds out and disowns me for being a 'dirty whore' and an embarrassment, which is pretty much inevitable.

My whole view on men is skewed, alias will know the feeling. A friend from the school run told me her husband was going on a stag weekend and I had a silent panic attack, couldn't stop thinking about it, how can she trust him, how can she let him go, she mustn't let him go etc. He personally has never given me reason to think he would use the opportunity to visit a prostitute. Same friends, I was at their house once, he went out, my friend asked where and he said "just running an errand." I immediately thought to myself, 'he's going to see a prostitute.' I was even recording mentally what time he left so I could note how long he'd been away when he got back, to see if it was long enough to have visited a prostitute. Which it would have been - in my area at least a lot of them now offer 15 minute bookings so that men can nip in on the way back from Tescos or whatever.

I don't mean lie about having a job. Lie about why you were out of the workforce. You don't need to tell anybody that it was something you weren't proud of - that's a real mistake. Say you were writing a novel or taking care of dcs. Whatever works.

Have you thought of volunteering, to get some work experience that could lead to references? If you've got a first class degree there have to be organisations out there which would be delighted to have you.

Ohmetoo I wish I could help. You deserve to have that normal life and that normal job!

I am sitting here watching my son (he's 4) playing happily and thinking about the two of you. What do I say to him, how do I raise him to make sure he doesn't grow up to be one of those vile men?

Ohme: honestly, can you ask Women's Aid for some support/advice or one of the other organisations working with women who want to leave prostitution? They must have stretegies to help women who have these 'missing years'. Running at the momnent, but would be happy to try to find some numbers for you later. You are clearly smart and brave. I wish I could employ you.

I think the best thing to do would be to focus on how to recover from what you are going through OP.

Going over who does and who does not visit prostitutes is not going to help you one bit (IMO).

Guys of every age, of every walk of life, or every build and of various versions of attractiveness visit prostitutes. There never has been and there never will be 'a kind of guy who visits prostitutes'. It is only our perseption.

Best to get on with the present and the future than to continually look at the past.

I didn't say to anyone apart from my lone parent advisor that it was something I wasn't proud of, I think she guessed it was adult industry, she probably thought I was a stripper.

I don't have time to volunteer, I need to be available for work during school hours (we are in a recession, it has affected the industry, some weeks I don't even break even), and after school hours/all weekend I am with dc. I couldn't afford childcare in order to volunteer. Bit of a sob story but the fact is as for most people at the moment money is very tight and it's impossible to save at all, so I can't establish a 'buffer zone' in order to be able to do things like volunteering.

Sadly my degree was academic rather than vocational. Cannot retrain for reasons above - could not afford to. Tbh as much as I despise the work I am also grateful I am able (physically/mechanically) to do it, because we'd be well below the poverty line if I couldn't.

Anyhoo enough highjacking of alias's thread I am only repeating things she already knows/feels/has experienced. This is about men and their attitudes. I wonder if Belle du Jour made more men think it was ok to use prostitutes? It certainly brought more women into the industry, a lot of younger women, many of whom wouldn't stay long once they realised that most clients were abusive skanks rather than very well mannered hedge fund managers who would take them shopping at Harvey Nichols.

This is the saddest thread I've ever read on MN :(

Alias and Ohmetoo - thank you so much for sharing your stories. They don't make easy reading but you are very brave to talk about your experiences.

In answer to your original Q, I have been out with one man who admitted having been to a prostitute, but I am fairly sure that at least one other has (he is now married to a stripper). The rest of them? Dunno. I suspect many of them just wouldn't because they find the idea of paying for sex really abhorrent. Whether that will continue as they get older I don't know.

I referred to the feminist charity, Eaves, which is based in London back on p7 or thereabouts, and others have previously mentioned one or two of their projects ohmetoo.

I would suggest you call the Scarlet Project on 020 7840 7142 Tuesdays-Saturdays 10am-5.30pm.

If you live in London, the Eaves funded LEA (London Exiting Action) Project 0207 840 7135/0207 840 7954 can provide all the help and support you may need to leave 'the life'.

Please be reassured that unless your dc will not be removed from your care if you seek counselling, nor is it 'inevitable' that your dc will disown or despise you if your profession becomes known to them - although they may be conflicted by your choice of career.

If you seek a referral for therapy through your GP, simply say that you feel that you are in need of a counselling service to deal with certain life experiences, eg abusive relationships, that are negatively impacting on your mental and emotional wellbeing.

When you stop engaging in prostitution you may find that your earning power is considerably reduced but, as so many women who've had the courage to quit selling their bodies have found, other rewards will more than compensate for any loss of disposable income.

You mentioned that during your brief return to 'normal' life 'in 4 months I never even got an interview'. Without knowing what jobs you were applying for, it is not possible to know whether your expectations are reasonable, but the economy is such that this is not unusual for many job seekers. Undertaking volunteer work for a charity close to your heart can be a stepping stone to permanent employment, or perhaps you could consider setting up your own small business providing an entirely different type of service to the one you are currently offering to men.

Your first class degree is evidence that you most probably possess a first class brain - please use it to stop putting yourself at risk of physical harm and from doing further damage to your self-esteem and self-respect.

I just get totally freaked out by the number of men who do it. I have hundred of numbers on my phone. I haven't met them all of course, some are nutjobs, some ring for a joke or just to verbally abuse you, but all of them at the very least have been googling prostitutes, for whatever reason. Even that low level leering nasty curiosity about prostitutes I find disturbing. And overwhelmingly the men who visit me are those who would say they are happily married. I never have men say that they hate their wives or their wives don't do this that or the other. It's almost like prostitutes are a casual hobby for them. A couple of them are widowed/divorced and old and don't know how to 'get sex' any other way. But most are married, successful, secure. I think they are crazy. I'd love to have a husband and a family and security, I have no idea how they can jeopardise that stuff so mindlessly and so easily. They literally have no qualms. I'm totally vanilla so it's nothing to do with 'great sex' because they don't get that from me

Hmm 'set up your own business' I have nothing to sell and no service to provide and I'm not going to get very far applying for bank loans with my work history and I have no money to put into starting a business because I am only just meeting my current commitments as it is. Easy to say 'do this do that', in practice - not so much.

While on JSA I was applying for anything between the hours of 9.30-5pm Mon-Fri (my available hours) for which you don't require specialist qualifications, unfortunately every man woman and their dogs are applying for the same sort of positions right now.

Counselling - maybe for the future but it's not much use right now, while I'm still in the industry. It would be like going to get counselling for assault then getting assaulted after every session.

OK I'm off for now, sorry again alias for the diversion x x

You're right ohme; it is easy to say 'do this, do that'.

And it is just as easy to find reasons not to 'do this, do that', or to take any action that can bring about a beneficial change in our lives if it means that we have to leave our comfort zone, no matter how destructive and detrimental to our physical and emotional wellbeing that zone may be.

Ohmetoo I did manage to live on benefits with 2 children for the day-to-day essential stuff when I left the industry however if there is an unexpected expense ie - cooker breaks it's almost impossible to fund it. There is not much scope for savings on benefits. I dread to think how I would live on the single person allowance of £65 a week no kids - my gas and elec is £30 a week alone!

Are you sure you were claiming everything you were entitled to? for example, housing benefit, council tax benefit and free prescriptions, and school meals and clothing grants if your kids are at school?

'Comfort zone' - are you kidding me?

I have taken action. It didn't work. Do you honestly think every time someone in a difficult situation takes 'action' that it all works out just as planned? I'm afraid it doesn't. I'm not saying I won't ever come up with an alternative plan. It's patronising and insulting for you to tut and shake your head and say "Well, if only you would just try..."

I could have course have stayed on JSA, we'd have had to move though, my rent is higher than local housing allowance and I wouldn't have been able to make up the shortfall. Also, we'd have been reduced to below the poverty line, as I said earlier. So I've made the choice to persist in this industry in order to maintain consistency for my child. However even with stretching my imagination I wouldn't call it a 'comfort zone'.

It's a chicken and egg question - which came first: the prostitute or the client?

Judges, executives, teachers, politicians, businessmen, army/navy, airforce personnel, accountants, churchmen, doctors, entertainers, hoteliers, local government officers, sportsmen, artisans/craftsmen, policemen, actors, manual workers, scientists, licencees, pensioners, bankers, civil servants, lawyers, students, pilots/airline staff/aviation workers, nurses, shopkeepers... the list of men who use the services of prostitutes is endless.

All of them husbands/partners, sons, brothers - and many of them the very last candidates that the unwitting would suspect of using the services of prostitutes.

All you can do Cheerful is to raise your son to have respect and consideration for all who inhabit this planet in a family that is filled with love for him and for others.

When he is older, you can educate him about the tyranny and abuse that thrives in unequal relationships where one party is allowed to have power over the other.