What's fair? Working out finances in our marriage

[theredsalamander]

ive had some fab support and feedback in this thread here and dh has agreed that we should split our finances in a more equitable way.

We have sat down and added together what our joint household expenditure is, so all household costs eg car fuel heating building maintenance car repairs water insurances the lot. Previously cars were indiv expenses.

Tbh it has scared the bejeezus out of me because for the first time I can see what dh has been funding out of his wages without any input from me and it's A LOT. They are the irregular costs that aren't calculated monthly and so don't go out on a monthly direct debit, for example car insurance or tax.

We are living a lifestyle which my wage cannot hope to contribute fairly to -if we split our contributions to joint account proportionally based on our incomes the maximum I could put in as my share still wouldn't be enough. (eg if total coat is 3k, my share might be worked out to £1k, but if I only get paid £800 a mOnth we are way off. Effectively dh has been funding the shortfall.)

I can't believe I have been so out of touch with our finances and feel like some 1950s housewife who is totally oblivious. Which I guessbi have been.

Logically I would argue that we need to downsize to a more affordable home, or dh should change his car to one the tyres don't cost 300 a pop. But dh says that at present we can afford to do all this because he paying for it- and therefore we should stay at the present system where we split monthly household costs 50/50 and he funds everythin else, I am getting a good deal and I just need to suck it up and be wiser with the cash I do have.

If we have system as he suggests, and additionally where I grow a pair and start telling him when i need to buy the things I need- of course not taking the piss, is this a good one? I am struggling to feel my way around this and could so with some assistance to deconstruct this!

Thanks in advance.

I don't feel one tiny bit sorry for a man who runs an ego-car while his wife puts work-shoes on her Xmas list.

Stepping away from the money thing for a minute...

How does he get on with the kids? Does he play with them at the weekend? Make an effort to do bath- and bed-time once in a while? Chat with them about their day?

He seems to have so completely opted out of any sort of family-ness with yourself, makes me wonder if he's the same with the kids?

I agree that the situation is ridiculous, but is it not just a tiny bit possible that he can't see it not because he's an ogre but because he lives with his head in a different world?

I imagine that he's like my dh who has three pairs of shoes in total - black, brown, summer. If I told dh I needed a new pair of shoes he'd look a bit because I have a cupboard full of shoes - he wouldn't realise that my low heal, black, can wear them all day ones need replacing because if it was him he wouldn't have options.

Similarly with the car thing - OP herself has supported him in spending on that car because she feels he works hard and should be able to spend "his" money on something he enjoys. OP has been fiercely independent in the way she's dealt with money so far in their relationship (ok sometimes to avoid upsetting him).

What they both need to recognise is that she now earns less money and that shouldn't be denting her self-esteem and confidence in their partnership in the way it is. Her status in their relationship needs to be rebalanced by demonstrating with the joint finances that work in the home/with the children etc still counts towards pulling her weight.

Madrush - I really think you are giving him the benefit of the doubt there and I am not convinced he deserves it!

I do like to see the best in people and I HATE hearing about families with little ones splitting up.....

I think perhaps you have missed the fact that the way he speaks to her is really not on and she has said that he "makes her life intolerable" every time she has to bring up the smallest thing that she wants. It's not just about the money.

madrush, your speculations are very charitable, but I think you're probably mistaken. Based on the facts the op has outlined, her dh sounds like an intensely selfish and egotistical man. These are deeply rooted character flaws, IME, not trivial foibles that can be reversed with a few gentle, common-sense discussions. Op, I agree with those that suggest discussing this with a rl friend. I would also second the idea of counselling; on your own.

I posted on your previous thread, and said that I have just started to divorce my husband - who sounds very similar to yours.

I'm glad to see you've got angry. Like you, I'm placid, easy going......and been stressed over money for years. And, I'm pretty sure that, like you, I'm actually very good at economising (I get my and kids' clothes from Ebay, buy on offers, cook cheaply from scratch, don't have any hobbies other than a £350 gym membership - the only thing I do outside of the house. My husband also has a sports car, and loan for it, which come in at over £4k a year when including tax, fuel etc. That's before we get to his other leisure activities. He refused to help me with my gym fees this year, because I have to manage my own finances - when I brought up his hobby car he tells me "I'm allowed to have a hobby"). I'm carer to our child, who has SN's, so don't work (but do get the DLA and carers allowance).

I now realise that his "disposable income" after bills is almost double what I start out with - and my amount is swallowed up with children, and house stuff. His is under his control - yes, he buys things for the house (computer when ours broke, washing machine etc being recent examples). But he has a lot of freedom. I'm still living like a student, despite graduating over 20 years ago!!!

I have just been writing down how much what I am expected to cover really costs a year. I have 3 pages of notes. I have nearly finished my first page and am already in deficit. Now I see why I had to keep apologetically asking for school dinner money from husband.

You sound like me (no offence!).

I'm not going to tell you divorce is the best option.

But I will say that, the realisation that I have been manipulated and controlled etc for a while has brought me some relief. I will be out of here, with the children at some point (house sale needed!). And I will almost definitely be reliant on benefits for a while after that. Ironically, I will be better off! And have some control over my daily life, which now feels like a massive reward.

I really do wish you luck, however things work out for you. Sorry if I've waffled - you really do need to get to a much fairer solution that his proposals though.

I would also add, as another poster has queried, the children/childcare bits of life have always been very much down to me. He interacts when he chooses, but most of his leisure time is solo (like driving round in his car at weekends).

He does do work on the house (which is for all of us and we all benefit, but again means he's solo and I'm doing the children - which I love, but it'd be nicer if both parents were involved equally.....)

One refrain that I'm receiving from friends and neighbours is that they don't see him being willing to put the effort into the children post-divorce.

Buzz and Blu- I love your car descriptions! I don't want to say exactly what the car is as whilst he would be able to identify me from the details so far, I don't want to out myself to everyone that knows us. Too embarrassed.

I did take the piss a bit on personal purchases. Can't deny that. No excuses. I did put the account right, including any charges incurred as a result. But still shouldn't have done it. This is why he doesn't trust me with money.

Tailcutter and Blu-I have suggested joint counselling- flat refusal. Almost pleaded. Again refusal. So I am going to find some for me I think. So i can make a plan of how to approach this, either way.

I love him though. And in his own way I know he loves me. But I have often said to him, in the throws of a row, that he doesn't love me the way i want him to and these threads just makes me realise that I've been quite reasonable in thinking that. :( I also know that even if he changes his ways financially because I might leave otherwise, he will not believe it is fair and will begrudge every single penny of "his" money he has to "give" me.

I don't want his sodding fucking money or his posh car I want him to treat me like he LOVES me. But guess after 17 years that's not going to happen is it. :(

Ok maybe you might have taken the piss in the past. But you are not doing that any more. He is still doing it now. He is leaving you to bear more responsibility for the family than him while he just suits himself. Not just in a financial way, but also in the way that he does not carry his weight in the home or with the children.

If your relationship is to work, he needs to realise that it is not about being forced to "give" you "his money" reluctantly. It is about establishing a manageable and sensible family budget. As a family it does not sound like you can afford the Twatmobile for example.

---Ok, this is being dictated from my DH who is working from home today so in case your DH should read, the following has not been written by a 'bitchy woman'.

'The maternity leave thing has just proven what an utter arse he is. He has no respect for you and men who treat the mother of their children like this need to be taken down a peg. When you are married or in a long term commited relationship, household income is just that; household. You pay it into the pot, pay out what needs to be paid and the rest gets spent as necessary each month. So one month the wife spends more, one month the husband does. Though frankly, the wife usually spends more because she is also usually spending on the children. As a lawyer, I can say this is also how the law looks upon it regardless of who is putting what into the pot.'

---So that is from my DH who is currently supporting a SAHM and 4 kids without ever suggesting he's hard done by and even if I worked f/t he'd still earn 4x what I would yet he sees out set up as the only fair one. His advice to you is for you to 'run for the hills!' Though I'm not sure that's technically a legal term.

Latteaddict, you may find your ex wants to see the children more than you think, at least for overnight stays anyway. My very similar ex uses his children in order to reduce his maintenance liability to me. Every extra night equals a reduction. The fact that he leaves them to their own devices & feeds them 12p noodles & makes no contribution towards clothing school costs etc is not taken into account. My maintenance was also slaughtered when he CHOSE to impregnate another poor unfortunate (mail order bride) so his children suffer all the more. It's a man's world alright!! :(

TRS, if he loved you he wouldn't treat you in this way!! :(

Don't know your husband, but he doesn't seem to be going out of his way to support you at the moment, when you're clearly unhappy.

Again, it's only my experience, but mentally I "left" mine a few months ago. Since then he's bullied, threatened, verbally abused (this was happening before, anyway), sworn undying love, cried, intimidated me, tried to manipulate the children into asking me to stay with things as they were........

And I can see that, at some level, he's not seeing me as a person at all. Maybe he does/did love me - as an extension of his life/appearances/support (housekeeper etc!). But as a person independent of him, I now doubt it. I also doubt that he can fully see it himself.

I now don't believe anything that he says. Which is sad, but probably accurate.

He is very good with our children. Does make an effort to help with bath and bed and plays with them lots, takes ds1 to footie and helps out with training sessions etc. I do not doubt his devotion to them although I have always worried about his materialism rubbing off on them, which of course it will.

Latteaddict- glad you are sorting things . I don't want us to break up I want us to be a family forever, that's what I promised him. :(

TRS can you tell us what you bought as personal purchases? I have a feeling that most people wont perceive it as you having "taken the piss"

He promised to love and cherish and honour you. And share with you. I think there is something in the marriage vows that goes " all that I am I give to you, all that I have, I share with you".

It's good that he spends time with the children, at least that is one thing he is doing right. But it isn't just about doing the fun stuff.

Lovingthecoast- i just dont know how to convince him of that. Unless it's his idea in thefirtplce he doesnt tend to give it a thought.

Madrush- I still refuse to believe he is as calculating as sOme think. Thank you for thinking kindly x

"I did take the piss a bit on personal purchases. Can't deny that. No excuses. I did put the account right, including any charges incurred as a result. But still shouldn't have done it. This is why he doesn't trust me with money."

Er, no. That is what he uses to tell you that he doesn't trust you with money. If that had never happened, he'd find some other reason to tell you tht he doesn't trust you with money. He probably does trust you with money. But he'd much rather control you using money as a tool.

TRS I hope you find some way to resolve things so that you can be happier - don't be rash. Is there a rl friend you can talk to who knows more about how happy/unhappy you've been over the years and can help you get a perspective on it? Or as some have suggested counselling so you can really find your own mind about it?

Red, did he WANT to get married? Did he WANT to have children?

I'm sorry, but if you have to follow up 'he loves me' with 'in his own way', something is seriously wrong.

I really hope you will find a way to attend counseling on your own. I understand you don't want a divorce but things cannot continue in this way, if for no other reason than you are setting a terrible example for your children of how relationships work.

thered - do you really think it's "kind" to tell a woman who is being abused that it's OK and that she should put up with it for the children?

madrush has made explicit that she has an ideological opposition to families with young children splitting up (apparently regardless of the cost to the members of family).

Yet out of scores of posters, you single out her contribution (notable mainly for its failure to deal with any of the significant problems you've raised).

It is not credible that this is something he is unaware of, particularly now that you've raised it with him.

A kind man who wanted independent finances would not have insisted you pay for the whole house deposit, would not have allowed you to support him as a student, and most importantly of all would not have browbeaten and bullied you into believing that you were untrustworthy with money and used that as an excuse for financial abuse.

Have you given any thought to my earlier suggestion for playing him at his own game? If you accept his logic in any way, it's the only way forward.

Stand up for yourself.

And don't let some promise you made to him turn you into a doormat. When you promise to stay with someone, that promise is (as it must always be) conditional upon fair treatment. He has lost the right to hold you to that promise.

"I don't want us to break up I want us to be a family forever, that's what I promised him."

But he's not living up to his side - you can't promise someone you'll stick with him through thick and thin when you get treated poorly in return. It has to go both ways - he can't extract a promise like that then merrily indulge himself at your expense. I'm not talking about money here.

He sounds like he's quite a cold fish emotionally, towards you.

Don't you know you deserve to feel loved, not live on the meagre approximation of it that he is capable of showing or feeling?