What's fair? Working out finances in our marriage

[theredsalamander]

ive had some fab support and feedback in this thread here and dh has agreed that we should split our finances in a more equitable way.

We have sat down and added together what our joint household expenditure is, so all household costs eg car fuel heating building maintenance car repairs water insurances the lot. Previously cars were indiv expenses.

Tbh it has scared the bejeezus out of me because for the first time I can see what dh has been funding out of his wages without any input from me and it's A LOT. They are the irregular costs that aren't calculated monthly and so don't go out on a monthly direct debit, for example car insurance or tax.

We are living a lifestyle which my wage cannot hope to contribute fairly to -if we split our contributions to joint account proportionally based on our incomes the maximum I could put in as my share still wouldn't be enough. (eg if total coat is 3k, my share might be worked out to £1k, but if I only get paid £800 a mOnth we are way off. Effectively dh has been funding the shortfall.)

I can't believe I have been so out of touch with our finances and feel like some 1950s housewife who is totally oblivious. Which I guessbi have been.

Logically I would argue that we need to downsize to a more affordable home, or dh should change his car to one the tyres don't cost 300 a pop. But dh says that at present we can afford to do all this because he paying for it- and therefore we should stay at the present system where we split monthly household costs 50/50 and he funds everythin else, I am getting a good deal and I just need to suck it up and be wiser with the cash I do have.

If we have system as he suggests, and additionally where I grow a pair and start telling him when i need to buy the things I need- of course not taking the piss, is this a good one? I am struggling to feel my way around this and could so with some assistance to deconstruct this!

Thanks in advance.

All these percentages are pointless.

How much is your total joint income?

How much is your total joint expenses?

How much is left over?

That's all you need to know - pool your money, pay your bills, split the spending money. It's simple really.

okay joint monthly income £2,500
Joint expenses £2000

TRS contribution = £660 out of £825 = treat money £165
H contribution = £1340 out of £1675 = treat money £335

Who is paying for the debt, is this now a joint expense or still yours?

Sorry OP, but think that through. If you earn 30% of total, then he earns 70%. If you paying 30% of joint costs is MORE than what you previously paid - and remember that left you with no free money at all - then 70% of joint costs must leave your husband in the same position as you.

Let's do some made-up numbers. You said you earn £800/month, let's call it £900 to make the sums easier.
So, your £900=30%, so his 70%=£2100. Total joint income=£3,000. For you to be left with less than nothing, your outgoings must be over £3,000/month and he is left with nothing either. See? Just because some of those bills don't land monthly makes no difference.

He is manipulating you, OP. If he has money left over, then so must you.

Does this mean that you are still expected to pay off the loan, taken when you were the sole earner, on your own. Because it is a joint debt, and should be paid by you both.

And oh yes, money doesn't have to change hands for there to be a contribution. All your unpaid child-rearing and home-making is what ALLOWS him to earn more money.

We do as the majority here - pool all income to pay for expenditure, then pay ourselves equal pocket money. Although I do agree with you about downsizing (though not with the reason you use to justify it). My Father always told me to live like a pauper and that's what we've always done (apart for a blip in my early 20s. We don't deprive ourselves but we don't waste money and live well within our means. It means we always have spare cash to pay for our indulgences/emergencies.

My Dad is self-employed like your 'D'H and I think his fear of his business going belly up/having an accident and being unable to work drove that philosophy. The equivalent of your 'D'H's squirrelling away but in a slightly more constructive sense.

I think it's positive that you've broached the subject with your H. But IMHO there needs to be a sea change in both of your attitudes to get to anything approaching what I would consider normality. What you are describing is the type of situation I grew out of when I stopped having boyfriends and started having a husband.

Red

If it was fair, you would both have the same amount of disposable income left at the end of the month. This is because you both put WORK into the family (just cos the childcare and housework isn't waged, doesn't mean it isn't work with a real financial value) and you both should get equal amounts of leisure spending out.

All into one pot. Bills and food and clothes and things come out. Then what's left gets split three ways: (1) joint savings (2) money for you and (3) money for him.

(2) and (3) are equal amounts.

Now THAT would be fair.

The numbers he's talking about just don't add up. He's manipulating you.

Ask yourself, why does he want to keep you without a disposable income? Why does he want to keep you 'grateful' that he's bought you a pair of shoes?

Surely you can see why.

Has your H somehow convinced you that he is good at maths? Because he isn't!

He does not trust me with money. I can understand this, I made the joint account go overdrawn regularly with personal purchases a good while back. I was not a good financial partner.

RANT ALERT

But when I think about this- i am getting really fucking angry now i have realised this- i did have a very good track record before- I paid for our first house deposit from the proceeds of my (not his) first house, as he said that he could either afford to contribute equally to our wedding or to the house, not both. Fine but this only transpired after we had committed to the move and wedding plans were well under way. 4 years later, Whilst pg with ds1 (unexpected 1st baby), we were paying 50/50 as he had reluctantly agreed that our salaries were similar enough. I saved enough to continue to pay at the same level all the way through my mat leave, so dh wouldn't need to pick up any slack. Now I did not mind doing this- if i could afford to it would make sense to do so. I did not want to go back full time But dh persuaded me we couldn't afford for me not to and I did. I ended up making myself properly frootloop bonkers after 1 year- begged cried to go part time, he finally conceded- as long as I continued to earn enough to pay all the nursery fees. So i condensed my hours and did 34 hours over 4 days so I could have a precious day with ds. Wanted to downsize house etc to cheaper one but this wasn't acceptable to dh.

Move on 3.5 years, ds2 Comes along and I've only managed to save enough for 9months of mat leave, dh earning much more than me by this stage (joys of pt working and not getting promoted any more) asked dh to fund my joint account contributions for 3 months and he hits the roof. Finally agrees to but this is a stick he beats me with even now.(ds2 is 3).

On returning to work, ds1 starts school the same month and so we decide I should reduce hrs to 27 hours per week. After a couple of months dh also starts paying all the childcare, previously this was me.

I've been taken for a complete fucking arseholing shitting ride haven't I? reason I guess I've never felt comfy talking about money isn't because of my upbringing (it was never really important enough to talk about), but because on some level I know that dh is greedy and selfish. Oh fuck.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh (silent scream as sat on ds2's bed, having bedtime probs!)

I disagree clam

I would say that he is very good at maths because only someone very good can skew the figures so much that the OP doesnt know which way is up!

This man is a manipulative selfish person and I agree with whoever posted above that money is a symptom of the problems in your relationship not the cause of them.

He wants everything his way! He wants to dictate what hours you work, where you live, what you pay out, what you spend you (tiny amount) of personal money on and yet refuses to support you in anyway!

The guy is a shithouse, and I amd sorry to say that yes, he has taken you for a ride.

Yes, you have been taken for a complete arseholing shitting ride. I'm very sorry :(

I would be livid if my husband made me "owe him money". I am not sure why this thread has made me so angry but I hope your husband finally starts to treat you like an equal in all respects. I wish you all the best op.

And something has just occurred to me.

He has managed to convince you that you are shit with money, and you have accepted that but someone who is shit with money couldnt have bought a house on their own, managed to save almost 2 years worth of earnings to cover ML and live on the pittance you are "allowed".

You are not shit with money at all, but he has managed to gaslight you into believing that you are so he can continue to live his selfish life and keep all of his cash for himself.

I have just read both of your threads - well, I read all of your posts and skimmed the others.

Frankly, to me, it's madness that you have been chugging along like this for so long! Get both of your incomes put into one account, work out what the bills will be & each take out the same amount for yourselves, it doesn't matter who is earning how much, you are married with kids.

and what Whereyouleftit said - contribution is not only 'money'!!

I would just run for the hills tbh.

Anyone who deliberately kept me dependent on them for money would be history!

You had to continue paying "your" half whilst you were on maternity leave with HIS CHILD????????

This gets worse and worse.

I've just read your last post and thank fuck for that is what springs to mind. You should be angry, you have been taken for a ride.

So you went without disposable income to cover your mat leave both times, but the financial aspect of having a child and mat leave is a JOINT one, okay you give birth so get the time off but the financial aspect should have been shared!

He really has taken you for a ride hasn't he

Sorry, the figures don't add up because as suggested by aomeone (sorry i cant recall who) my loan is a personal expense and not a joint one. I.e I pay for it after joint contribution.

Oh fakery rickety fick. (iPhone approximation of fuckety fuckety fuck)

I am fuming so debt that was incurred jointly is your personal expense

He's a cocklodger.

WHY ARE YOU PAYING FOR THE LOAN THAT WAS RUN UP FOR HIM!!!!!!!!!

He made you save and struggle to pay for 'your' maternity leave? what an absolute and total arse. You didn't get pregnant through the immaculate conception did you?

He forced you back into full time work and then refused to contribute to the childrens child care payments?

He is happy to have spare cash while seeing you go without? He manipulates you to believe you are bad with money while you have struggled to take care of the children and fund the maternity leave - which you BOTH require in order for your child to be cared for. What did he think would happen if you had not taken that maternity leave? Would the baby have just reared itself for the first year?

He won't support you in any way while you look after the children - and doesn't put any value on that work >?

He gets 'in a shit mood' because you are forced to penny pinch and buy kids clothes without proper access to cash - because he is controlling all the money?

AS a comparison - I am freelance, so wont have an income when my baby is born - my partner said to me recently - 'all my money is yours, please dont ever worry about it, anything I earn I consider yours as well, I want you to take all the time off you want.' That is because is a loving kind person.

This goes beyond money - your partner is unkind and has watched you struggle and suffer - and as everyone here has said, is deliberately trying to trick you into feeling guilty for your needs.

My previous partner was a bit like your H with money and "his" possessions, even his friends. I can't tell you what a relief it was to get together with DH subsequently. His kindness and generosity made me fall in love with him straightaway.

Red - I am sooooo glad that you are angry!

Now stay angry and make something happen. Or leave him, and let him take his chances with what the courts will think you should have from him. Guaranteed he won't like it at all.

I still think sitting down with someone independent is the way to go if you want to stay with this man, and joint finances with agreed personal allowances should work, but everything you have added to your information so far has just made the alarm bells ring more loudly for me.

Just by contrast - my DH transfers money into my account every month. We set is at X amount because DD needed to take a taxi to school every day (long story about incompetent councils and school buses blah blah blah). Anyway, we got her on the school bus after 1.5 terms so my costs dropped dramatically. I suggested adjusting the direct debit. DH said no, he wanted me to build up a savings buffer for unforeseen circumstances and if I wanted to treat myself to clothes and stuff, and insisted on keeping things as they were.

Your H is a mean-spirited (fill in noun of choice here).

We have been discussing it aaaaalllll day and he just cannot see any of my point of view. As per my original post, he has agreed to split the joint expenses but this is in a "do what you fucking like, I haven't got a choice have I?" way. He has also said that I although I am upset about the amount of "cOntrol" he has over me (he pooh poohs this entirely. Always wanted to use pooh poohs in a serious context, yay!) I am a hypocrite as i clearly just want control of HIS money.

I do not want control, I want fairness. I have said that until i am blue in the face but computer says no. Problem is I have no idea what fair is and he is running circles round any of my feeble reasoning attempts. I have said now that I need a bit of time to think about everything.

I can't show him this thread, he would be utterly livid and whilst he has never so much as touched a hair on my head, he does have a temper and I am scared of igniting that. He doesn't need to be physically threatening to be a bit scary! Also (and this will make you all reaaaalllly cross if you weren't already!) he thinks that mumsnet is just a load of bitchy women slagging men off. So of course wouldn't consider that you could be right!