Leaving an emotionally abusive relationship - my story

[preciouslittlegems]

Sorry, this is long! I'm just not sure what to think about a conversation I had earlier with DH. He was not joking and this is set in the context of a relationship that has broken down and we no longer share a bedroom. He is bitter as he wants things to return to the way they were, for us both to compromise. I don't want to because he has been quite severely empotionally abusive and I don't want to get emotionally involved with him again, as I feel it is not a good place for me to be. I am being supported the local DV service because of the abuse. I am finding it really hard to leave the relationship because I don't know how he will react and today's conversation has made me even more uncertain (he has also threatened to kill himself many times).

I was preparing dinner with a sharp knife. He came up to me and told me not to stab him with it (he said the same thing last week). I took it as a joke and replied I'm not in the habit of killing people. He, speaking quite seriously, told me that he often thinks about killing people and asked if I do. I said no, of course not. He said he was surprised given the state of our relationship. He said he thinks less about stabbing people and more about suffocating and poisoning people. He said he lays awake at night thinking about it a lot. I was stunned at this point but decided to find out more. I asked if there was any one in particular he thought about killing (I could see where this was heading) and he said it was me he thought about, in particular poisoning. I calmly told him that he would go to prison and he said only if found out. I told him that he would be a prime suspect and he then went on a bit about things I do that upset him, including sharing with family and friends things he would rather I didn't (the abuse). I asked how he planned to poison me he said he wouldn't tell me because I would run off and phone someone and tell them. I asked if that was the only reason he wouldn't tell me, as I would not have a clue how to poison someone. He said that I have no idea what he knows and that he knows a lot more than I realise.

I sound very calm above but I don't feel it. This has freaked me out and is the reason I don't leave as I am unsure what he is capable of. He has mentioned poison to me a few times, e.g. told me there is poison in my cup of tea he has made me as he hands it to me (for no reason).

Am I being paranoid? Should I laugh it off? Am I unable to take a joke? He was definitely not joking but if I asked him about it again or involved other people, he would say I couldn't take a joke. He regularly makes really nasty comments to me. Since the incident he has been in a bad mood and barely talked to me apart from to shout a bit and criticise various things I have done and the state of the house.

I would just value any views. Do you think he has said this to frighten me to behave and be a proper wife again and not leave, or is there something more sinister to worry about? I feel this is the last straw but I am scared. I feel trapped.

I've just had Ravenous round this afternoon and she is accompanying me to the solicitors tomorrow morning. Some other friends are taking me and kids out Friday evening. My friend is great to put us all up. Work is being brilliant, everyone is covering my work. All the Mumsnet support has been fantastic. I feel very supported. A different police DV PC called this morning and gave me more information and support. She says if the locks here are secure and the letter box is taped and the house is tagged, we are a safe here as anywhere. I really don't want to move DC's out of school unless absolutely necessary. DS2 has already begged me not too and DC1 is old enough to decide whether he will accompany H if approached.

The orders may be served tomorrow, so I will see what happens with H!

Hi
I dont often post but I have been following this thread from the beginning. I think you are very brave and I wish you the very best of luck. There is no doubt in my mind that you have done the right thing.

I am in a similar situation but nowhere near as bad, not yet. I fear things will get worse when I instruct my solicitor.

It also agree with what others have said, this is the calm before the storm. Take care.

Overall, I have the impression that your H is too calculating to do anything rash when there are witnesses around and I'm sure you're safe with your friend.

I doubt that he would carry out his threats to poison or otherwise cause you physical harm. To me, this sounds more like attempts to scare and intimidate you into complying with whatever he wants and I also doubt that he's staying awake at night planning, plotting, or fantasising about such macabre thoughts.

However, given that he may be currently mentally unstable, you are best advised to take every reasonable precaution to protect yourself and others without allowing his threats to plunge you into a state of paranoia.

Hopefully, tomorrow will begin the legal processes necessary to ensure that he is powerless to menace you again.

I also doubt that he's staying awake at night planning, plotting, or fantasising about such macabre thoughts.

Really, Izzy? Do you imagine that psychopaths conveniently rage around, wild-haired and ranting? And do you imagine people tell their spouses how they plan to murder them without having spent ages developing macabre fantasies?

He may have been confessing some dark thoughts which have been worrying him, but I HIGHLY suspect he was setting up a scene to intimidate you. I've had a friend with a similar partner (long gone, thank goodness!) who would drop into conversation, all nonchalant like, stuff about killing himself or getting drunk and riding his bike through traffic.

Sorry this has happened, I do hope you manage to get somewhere better xxx

There's no evidence that the OP's H is psychopathic, garlic nor is there any evidence that developing macabre fantatises can only be done late at night or in the early hours.

I have suggested that the OP check her H's computer history at the earliest opportunity, specifically to ascertain whether he has been using the internet to fuel any fantasy he may have about poisoning her, as this may provide some evidence as to whether he is engaging in such fantasies. In addition, such checks may reveal whether he has gone so far as to order products that may incriminate him and/or which may provide the necessary grounds for him to be sectioned pending evaluation of his mental health.

It is not unusual for controlling individuals to deliberately behave in, or in what may be perceived to be, a psychopathic manner when intimidating their victims whilst interracting in perfectly acceptable manner with others. As to whether such individuals are in robust mental health is a matter of conjecture but without proof it can only, as in the OP's case, be the victim's word against that of their aggressor as to whether they have a diagnosable mental disorder.

My ex h once attempted to strangle me, he stopped when I went limp ( I did that to make him think I had lost consciousness)anyway, I stayed, tried to patch things up, life went on

We eventually split, and a psychiatric evaluation was required for court. The long document the psychiatrist sent detailed that h had fully intended to kill me, he stopped because he thought he had! I was so shocked to read this, ten years after the event, however, he got zero contact if the dc, and was diagnosed with 'personality disorder'

I wasn't attempting a diagnosis. I was using shorthand for a distinctly abnormal and threatening pattern of behaviour. The "staying awake plotting" was your post, not mine, Izzy, but to quote the opening post:

He, speaking quite seriously, told me that he often thinks about killing people and asked if I do. I said no, of course not. He said he was surprised given the state of our relationship. He said he thinks less about stabbing people and more about suffocating and poisoning people. He said he lays awake at night thinking about it a lot.

I don't think that's an invitation to engage in detective games. I think it's an alarming insight to a potentially murderous mind. I'm very relieved OP thinks so, too, and is keeping herself safe instead of messing around with his computer.

We all possess potentially murderous minds garlic and I wish I had £1 for every threat I, and others, have uttered without following through.

If you read my previous responses, you will see that at no time have I suggested that the OP 'messes around' with her H's computer at the expense of her own safety and that of her dc.

However if, at some future date, the OP has access to her H's computer/laptop/phone, it would be prudent for her to search the history therein as it may provide evidence to support her assertion that he has threatened to poison her.

Izzy, the point you make about H interracting in a perfectly acceptable manner with others is an interesting one. H comes across initially as a quiet, pleasant man, with not a lot to say but OK. However, he can't sustain this. He has been very rude to my Mum and Dad and my sister. None of them will come to visit me and stay at our house because of it. My BF sees him regularly and finds him very difficult and often rude. My DS1's friemds have said he doesn't like them. SIL also really struggles with the way he behaves. So, yes, on the surface he appears fine but people that spend more time with him find him difficult. He openly says he doesn't like many people. 3 weeks ago he listed the people he likes - his Mum (who died last year), his Dad and his brother. No one else.

With regards to the computer history, he clears all the history that I know how to view, as we had a big issue with porn 3 years ago - which I discovered from his history. So he hides all the history now.

Perhaps you are referring to a case heard under Scottish or other law in respect of a 'non-occupation' Order babyhammock? In England and Wales protective Orders can be sought in respect of occupation and non-molestation.

An application for an ex parte Order places the Judge in the position of having to determine whether to accept the word of the Applicant against that of a Respondent who has not been issued with prior notice of the proceedings and is therefore not in Court to respond.

Where an ex parte application is successful, an Interim Order may be granted pending return and final hearings which are usually listed to be heard within c28 days of the date of the interim order unless special circumstances apply.

The problem is that, as AIBU and other pages here can testify, being rude to a spouse/partner's family/friends is not uncommon and cannot be seen in itself as evidence of mental illness.

Have his threats to harm you been reserved solely for your ears, or have they been overheard by others?

You have said that your H works - does he or has he had any difficulties interacting with colleagues/clients/customers etc?

izzy izzy izzy. Please listen to what precious has actually said here. Her DP is displaying so many red flags, red flags of the most dangerous kind. Examining these symptoms of abusive behaviour aren't a way to diagnose his mental illness / personality disorder, they are a way to assess the safety of prescious and her children.

A man that hides his history in his own home, a man that has no friends except his family one of whom died recently, a man that has repeatedly talked about murder and suffocation and assumes that it is normal behaviour.

I also have no doubt that the DV workers and the police will find every last shred of evidence they need on his computer, history or no history. They will know exactly how dangerous he is.

Precious, take care.

Deleting the history does not fully delete the history. Ask any police officer involved in child pornography cases, it will all still be there on his PC.

I agree about the police accessing his history-I hope they do go and take his computer-is this on the cards?. I also would echo singforsuppers post word for word. His behaviour is so far away from normal,even what is "normal" for a controlling jealous type, that I felt real fear reading your posts and I hope you can be safe now. What are the police doing,are they arresting him for the death threats? Is anyone going to give him a psychiatric assessment? He certianly sounds completely unhinged .I am so sorry for you going through this,and relieved that you have made the first huge step to freedom.

H only talked about what he had thought about doing to me. He did not say he actually was going to do it and this means that he did not actually threaten me, according to the police, so he hasn't committed a criminal offence. The police have logged it, given me lots of DV support and advice, will help me secure the house once I have an occupation order and tagged the house but they will not take anything further with H.

He does work but mainly from home. He seems to get on quite well with clients but has had a lot of problems with colleagues and bosses over the years. He often dislikes colleagues and whole teams and has been moved around different teams quite a lot, partly because of this and partly because of his performance. He has made more effort over the last year because he was taken through disciplinary procedures.

As no doubt you know or have now surmised, precious, both the police and mental health workers are powerless to act in this matter without probable cause or hard evidence.

From what you've said, I'm getting the impression of a socially inadequate man who lacks empathy for others. A man of average intelligence who believes he possesses a superior intellect. He's a loner because he is unable to form and maintain long-lasting friendships.

He's likely to be resentful of those who have authority over him at work, particularly his immediate line managers. If he is required to work with younger employees whose careers have progressed at a more rapid pace than his, he is likely to claim that they were given their roles/titles/promotions because of anything/everything except their ability to do their job more effectively than others.

His over-inflated opinion of himself would make him singularly unsuited to team work; others would find it difficult to work with him. He'd want everything 'his' way and would not be above actively undermining the efforts of others.

I doubt that he is able to accept that others are more qualified than he is for certain roles within any organisation he works for, and he would particularly resent 'taking orders' from anyone that he considers to be his intellectual inferior.

This is a man who feels that life has treated him unfarly and that he is particularly 'hard done by' through no fault of his own. In short, this is a man who has a grievance against anyone or everyone who does not defer to him.

How am I doing so far?

You are supposed to trust DH 100% especially when it comes to not murdering you! If you have to ask strangers on the internet if they think he is serious, then you have your answer. If you feel unsafe around someone, it does not matter if they were joking you still feel unsafe. It really does not matter if he tries to reason with you why you are wrong, why he is just joking, you are not happy in that relationship.

as for computers, as well as history you can try to look in search boxes. Often the previous terms that someone has searched for will appear. And often people delete the sites from their history, but forget to clear the search engines, or their entire computer.

sfs, sfs, sfs, DV workers have no powers in law and precious's H and/or his computer is not going be apprehended by the police, nor is his mental health going to be evaluated by professionals, unless or until he breaks the law or behaves in such a way as to compromise the safety of himself or others.

You may consider that the conversation that precious had with her H on Sunday, which understandably terrified her and which led to her leaving the marital home, has compromised her safety but, as she has said, it is insufficient for the police to proceed against her H.

At the present time, precious and her dc are safely ensconced in her friend's house but when she returns to her own home, or sets up home elsewhere, she will not have a police guard nor is she likely to be able to ensure that a third party is with her 24/7.

If you read the numerous responses I have made on this post you will see that I have been, and am, listening very carefully to what precious has said because, in the absence of clinical evaluation of his mental health, it is necessary to examine her H's behaviour in order to determine what risk, if any, he may pose to precious and the dc in the future.

In addition, by engaging in this dialogue, precious may gain some additional insight into the workings of her H's mind which will enable her to carry out her own risk assessment and may dispel some of her existing fears - albeit that they may be replaced by others.

I can assure you that I am mindful of the red flags but, contrary to hellymelly's assertion, in cases of emotional dv precious's H's behaviour is not uncommon nor does it deviate greatly from what is "normal" for a controlling jealous type.

It is probable that precious's H is little more than a common and garden sociopath of the everyday variety. Nevertheless, there are some areas that I would like to explore with precious on these pages as 'know thine enemy' is a valuable aid to empowerment and safeguarding in cases of prolonged emotional abuse.

I am in no way minimising the conversation that precious had on Sunday but, for other reasons, IMO her H may pose a significant risk to her in the future. I hope that, together, we can seek to minimise this risk and ensure that her H receives any treatment he needs.

i dont think it is precious's job to ensure her h receives the help he needs - anyway she cant. he is an adult. only he can seek treatment unless as you said, he does something that directly threatens his life or others meaning he could be eg sectioned.
his treatment plan is for him and his GP etc.

her job is to keep herself and dc safe.

she has enough personal worries to get an injunction.
if he is "innocent" he can go thru proper channels to get it overturned.... but my guess is he is going to get more mad at her because of this...

she has removed herself from him and is best she keeps that distance.
she has enough on her plate without worrying about whether h is reciving treatment or not - that is not her job.

if he wishes to pursue contact thru the proper channels ie court then these issues can be raised.

I thoroughly agree with you cestlavielife.

Izzy, if you look over on the emotional abuse thread you will find a lot of links to material written by experienced professionals on exactly the matters you describe. You are right in that he needs treatment, but he is displaying all the symptoms of a dangerous abuser. The personality type that you describe is only one aspect of this (jealous etc). In addition he has these murder fantasies which take this case to a whole different level. I have had DV training and worked with vulnerable women (but only 'low risk' women) and the general idea is to err on the side of caution - always expect the worst. The statistics are there to back up why they take this approach.

Precious your DV workers and the police seem to have this in hand. The links on the emotional abuse thread may help you see this in a little bit more perspective as well.

I'm not sure what Izzy's trying to do here, precious, but am glad you've got input from people who genuinely know what they're talking about, both here and - more importantly - in real life.

Your H's reasons (if they can be called 'reason') are irrelevant. There's nothing normal about what's been happening in your household. You've done, and are doing, the right things for your safety and your children's. I know it's hard to face - the temptation to treat it as a relationship/communication problem is intense - but, really, he's crossed a line from which there's no return. You need and deserve to live safely and in freedom.

Even minimising Izzy describes him as an "everyday sociopath". That's not okay! Nobody should live with a sociopath, and no child should be raised by one.

Again, I'm relieved that you are surrounded by supportive, helpful people in real life. That says loads about the kind of person you are :)
Hope thing are falling into place wrt safety measures today. Be kind to yourself. x

Precious I don't have any experience of any of this and can't offer any advice but I just wanted to let you know that I'm keeping you and your DCs in my thoughts. Hope that this all gets sorted soon and that you get all the support you need. It sounds like you have a fantastic support group both in RL and on here. All the best.

Everyday 'sociopaths' are everywhere! And many people DO live with them, many mumsnetters included

Yes, ILT, myself included. But consider this:

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV-TR), defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as

A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
    failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
    deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
    impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;
    irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
    reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
    consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
    lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;

B) The individual is at least age 18 years.
C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode. 

I certainly don't see that as the depiction of a desirable partner or parent.
Also, the above are the criteria for antisocial paersonality disorder (sociopathy.) To include persistent fantasies about murder and the conviction one could get away with it, you need to be looking at psychopathy.