To be angry at his abortion request?

[Breevandercamp1750]

I'll keep this brief but a few months ago we discovered that I was pregnant again. We already have 3 DCs, youngest is almost 9 months. He was over the moon about new arrival but in the last few days has changed his mind. I'm 18 weeks now and really don't want an abortion.

I don't understand his issue, we live in a large house with spare bedrooms and can easily afford it.

I just don't understand. I feel so empty.

I actually don't think you needed to be so graphic there Figs, but anyway...

'Thanks for answering me on the OP's behalf there, lachesis. '

Get a grip, Figs. It's a huge, open forum and a fairly big thread. Try reading it first. She sent him links, too, of the details of late-stage terminations.

The upshot is, he doesn't give a toss.

But if it makes you feel better to scold me, go right ahead.

'What I meant was, a face to face discussion where she tells him exactly what an abortion at this late stage will entail, and ask him whether he would be prepared to hold his aborted child afterwards, having ordered the lethal injection into its heart and put his wife through labour to birth a dead baby.

But thanks for making me repeat myself in even more graphic terms, lachesis'

No one put a gun to your head and forced you to write any of that, Figs.

If you're going to post something, at least have the balls to take repsonsibility for what you post, not try to say someone else forced your hand.

Doesn't sound like panic to me. Not with his subsequent remarks about things "blowing over" and "calming down."

I think you being incredibly strong and dealing with a very difficult situation with amazing dignity and sense.
You have not burned any bridges which is sensible, just in case some rational explanation appears however unlikely that seems now.
Fwiw I think that it is only now your pregnancy is presumably clearly visible that he's having to face the fact that it's there and is reliving the awfulness of your premmies. My dh is a classic ostrich and can also be very stubborn so while I hope he would never do what yours has done I do think it may be about the pregnancy and birth only and not another woman/ money/ business problems. Could he get some counselling about the previous births? Maybe now things have moved on to where they have, he would agree to it.

Hi Bree, I have lurked on this thread since it started, and just wanted to add my support. Others have said it all already really, but you are being incredibly strong and dignified. Your DCs, and especially your unborn baby are so lucky to have you.

I hope you get some proper answers from him soon - whether it really is the case that he's "panicked" or if there is more going on. It sounds like his father may be the one who can get to the bottom of it. IMVHO this is not rational behaviour, not even from someoen who is scared about dealing with a premature birth (if this was the case, would he not do everything in his power to keep as much stress AWAY from the family home??)I suspect that either he has had a complete breakdown, and is actually very unwell or that he has another relationship on the go.

Whatever the case I hope and pray you get to the underlying truth quickly, so that you can make decisions and take things forward in whatever way you decide is best for yourself and you DCs. XX

Your implication, lachesis, was that I hadn't read the thread properly, and that what I asked had already been answered. I have, and it hadn't, so maybe you should try reading my posts thoroughly (eg you've just told me that the OP emailed him, which I put in my last post), and reading what the OP had actually said. And I take full responsibility for what I write, thanks, I just didn't like having to repeat myself in response to you implying that I hadn't read the thread properly.

Gwendoline yes what I said was graphic (not in my first post, but in clarifying what I meant in my second post). But I was graphic because I feel that the OP's husband needs to be fully aware of what he is asking the OP to do - not in an abstract 'I don't feel ready to have another baby so we'll just get rid of it' way, but in being aware that an aborted foetus of 19 or more weeks (by the time the abortion took place) would look very much like his previous premature babies. That he would be making the decision to kill his child at a late stage of foetal development, at a stage when the foetus is only a month or so away from viability. For someone who loves his children very much, and who was distraught at his premature babies' struggles, it seems bizarre to me, as to everyone else, that he would want to rule out the possiblility of a prem and sick baby, by pre-emptively killing it. It makes me think that either he's a cold and emotionless bastard (which he's never given any sign of to the OP before) or that he hasn't thought through the really graphic reality of what he's asking for, and is thinking in abstract terms. I feel that if the OP sits face to face with him and discusses what he's asked in very graphic terms, then a) she will be able to gauge his reaction and decide which of the above is true, and b) he will (hopefully) be able to grasp the enormity of what he's asked of her, and realise that this is not going to 'blow over' and that she is not going to 'calm down'.

By the way, I am not anti-abortion, in fact I have had an abortion (an early one, admittedly), which I do not regret. But I have seen and held dead foetuses of between 17+5 and c. 22 weeks gestation, and I think that he needs to realise what he is asking for.

I don't honestly see how you graphically describing the process on this thread was going to help the OP's H understand what he was asking her to do, Figs. It's not like he's the one reading it, is it?
She has emailed him links to sites that graphically describe it - he may or may not have bothered to look at them of course.
She's not going to link him to this thread so he can read your description.

I'm sorry, I don't want to continue this fight but I think it's purely unnecessary for you to have felt "impelled to be graphic" about it. No one here needed to see it.

I don't honestly see how you graphically describing the process on this thread was going to help the OP's H understand what he was asking her to do, Figs. It's not like he's the one reading it, is it?

No but it gives the OP the words (if she wants them) to tell her DH exactly what it envolves.

I apologise if I have offended anyone; that wasn't my intention. I shall say it once more; emailing him is not the same thing - he probably didn't read it, since he seems to be avoiding the reality of the situation, and imo they need to discuss it face to face, so he can't avoid the reality of it.

I feel that my description was stark and factual, but not offensive. The fact is that someone who has a late miscarriage or termination has to go through labour. The fact is that in a late abortion, either prostaglandins are given in very high doses, or the foetus is first injected in the heart to stop it beating, and then prostaglandins are given. I'm not being offensive; these are the facts of the situation. Are we not allowed to speak factually of a situation just because it is emotive? I can see that my use of the word kill is emotive, but that also is factual; the foetus is killed. The reason that I wrote what I did was because I was suggesting to the OP what she might actually say to her husband, in the hope that he would understand why she is angry and devastated.

Cross post with Whose - yes thank you; that's exactly what I was trying to do.

And surely shying away from the reality of abortion is what we all agree is a bad thing in the case of the OP's husband? So why is it unacceptable to contemplate the reality of late abortion?

I don't think being graphic matters the op isn't having a termination, if she was then being graphic might not have been appropriate.

Anyway I'm sure the op knows what a termination at this stage would entail, as I'm sure her oh would be. After all he has 3 other dc so must have some knowledge of fetal development by now

Op I think you made the right choice telling the dc he was away on business, when or if it comes to the point that you need to tell them hes not comming back he should be with you, the dc need to know he will still be there for them and that he still loves them so it would be better if he tells them with you, also why should you do his dirty work for him, let him be there to see how he's upset his whole family

I kind of agree with Figs....no point pussy footing around this. That is the reality of a late abortion and he has asked her to do it. I can't understand how a man could ask such a thing if he is rational and loves his children and wife.

What I don't get is that even if he was having an affair or something had gone wrong in the business, would that stop you wanting to see your children or become so unfeeling that you would want to kill the next one.

He must have become unhinged in some way. He either has had a breakdown or he has always been amoral and without feeling for others? No?

This is just so awful and my heart goes out to you and your family,how great that your PIL are being so supportive .

One thing I would say is that I doubt you would be able to get a termination anyway,two doctors do still have to sign off and I doubt for these reasons that would be done easily,especially as you are clearly not wanting it .Of course you don't want one anyway but some people seem to think you can just go and get a termination ,maybe your dh does but it most certainly does not operate like that .

WhoseGotMyEyebrows said "FigsAndWine 'I have been present at the birth of twins who were two days off 18 weeks (so 17+5). One twin had died in utero and the mother had to be induced because she had developed an infection. The mother went through labour, and whilst one twin had died, the other was born alive and showed signs of life for at least half an hour afterwards. sad They were perfectly formed tiny babies, just with eyelids still fused and their skin very translucent.'
That's awful! "

Sorry Whose I only just saw that. Yes it was awful, and the worst thing was that because the mother was two days off 18 weeks, she had to go through this on the gynae ward, with very little support. Two days later, and she would have been on the labour ward, in a SANDS (stillbirth & neonatal death) room, with proper support. Huge difference in the standard of care (not that the nurses didn't care, but they had other patients and it wasn't treated as seriously as it would've been on labour ward, iyswim), for the sake of two days. I know there has to be a limit, but it did make me cross. I was on student placement on gynae ward so asked if I could go and be with her because no nurse was available to stay with her (her mum was there, but neither spoke much English and were really scared). I'm really glad I was able to; at least she had some support, even if just from an inept student.

mrswoodentop said "One thing I would say is that I doubt you would be able to get a termination anyway,two doctors do still have to sign off and I doubt for these reasons that would be done easily,especially as you are clearly not wanting it .Of course you don't want one anyway but some people seem to think you can just go and get a termination ,maybe your dh does but it most certainly does not operate like that."

Yes I absolutely second that.

MoominsAreScary I don't think being graphic matters the op isn't having a termination, if she was then being graphic might not have been appropriate. Anyway I'm sure the op knows what a termination at this stage would entail, as I'm sure her oh would be. After all he has 3 other dc so must have some knowledge of fetal development by now

The graphic detail wasn't for the benefit of the OP but to be passed on to her DH who appears to although having had dcs already, DOESN'T see what a big deal it is to ask his wife to have one.

FigsAndWine Thats is so terrible. You think that someone would bend the rules a little bit wouldn't you. Sometimes these things need a human assessment rather then just sticking to the inflexible rules.

I'm sure the OP is quite capable of doing her own research on what a late abortion entails. I don't think there is any need to lay it out in detail here, we're all capable of looking up the info if we need it.

I can't speak for the OP, but I think Figs's posts have been relevant, thoughtful and informative.

It's really up to Bree which advice she finds useful. This has been a great thread so far. Let's avoid turning it into one that descends into arguing over what people should be saying.

That's how I felt Whose. I did see another woman who was having a miscarriage at 17+6 taken down to SANDS though, so they weren't always quite so inflexible. You could argue that it's more traumatic for a woman to undergo labour in those circumstances on labour ward as she hears the sounds of labouring women and newborns too, but at least she's getting the support from the midwives trained in bereavement procedures. They weren't going to offer photos of the twins to this mother, either, because none of the nurses had done it before. I had, so I dressed them and photographed them, and showed them (photos and babies) to the parents. It was one of my last weeks of midwifery training before I left (for reasons not related to this), and it remains the most worthwhile two days of the two years I did - the days that I felt I made the most difference to someone. A baby doesn't just suddenly become a baby at 18 weeks in the eyes of the parent.

Anyway, sorry for the thread hijack.

Thanks SheCutOff. It wasn't my intention to offend.

Gwendoline I do seem to have offended you, and I'm sorry if this is a personal issue for you. But there has been plenty of unconditional support, declarations of what a bastard he is, and speculation about whether he's having an affair on this thread; I was trying to suggest a firm course of action (sit face to face and shock him with the graphic reality of what he's suggesting) that might be helpful to the OP.

Look the man knows exactly what he is asking of his wife, he is just putting his feelings before hers, I also suspect he DOES see what a big deal it is to ask his wife to have one, he is just more interested in what HE wants.

If seeing how upset his wife is, having to move out and loosing his family isn't enough to bring him to his senses then I doubt grafic details of late terminations are going to do it

Who knows what is going through his head even the op who is married to him doesn't know, whatever it is I hope he wakes up one morning and regrets what he's done to his family

FigsAndWine For what's it's worth, I didn't think what you said was innappropriate at all.