After divorce, trying to move on is like doing a square dance with both feet tied together. Update.

[Wisedupwoman]

First came to MN (a life-saver) in March:

Then DH, now XH (very quick divorce) was into second OW which I found out through his deceitful, sloppy and disgusting attempts to take the cowards way out. Could not believe the man I loved for 20 years had spent 4 years lying and cheating his way through life and who then went on to try and manipulate all our DC's (and still is, divorce doesn't change anything).

We are now into mediation, I have a sol who is waiting in the wings to advise on settlements. I have, despite all the turmoil, secured a better job on higher salary and our DD has a place at 6th form. XH has been living with OW since he left, and I went no contact within 2 weeks of his leaving. He hates this as he is unable to control the situation so interrogates DC's - my adult DS's have cut him out, yet XH still tries with eldest DS, who finds it hard not to feel sorry for XH despite his awful behaviour. All our friends have cut XH out, none of them liked him it turns out and his colleagues have long called XH 'the artful dodger'. So this was a man who led a double life and I have been trying to come to terms with this and move on.

This thread is about that - trying to move on and deal with the reality that whilst I am trying to hold my chin up and tits out, XH is going to be a part of my life through our DD whether I like it or not.

I want to give my heartfelt thanks and gratitude to everyone who has thus far been so wonderful and unstinting in their MN support for me - who have walked the journey with me even in the midst of their own sadness.

They have lost the best thing they every had, they play games because they can and its a last ditch effort to convince themselves they have any control left.

They don't.

Good on you, its all coming along nicely at Newlife village.

Absolutely Wisey - their worlds are their own now. Two other things that I know really grate on Lycra-twunt: Firstly, I know him inside out - he's reinvented himself, new look, new house, new woman, new taste in music,etc; but it's all an act - and he knows that I know - new woman might be fooled, but I'm not - I can still read the predictable twunt like a book. Secondly, in order to adopt his new persona, he had to alter me - so I was the whinging, nagging, depressed wife - who he was justified in treating badly. But I'm not - I'm filing him for divorce, I'm in charge. I've got a better job now and a better life and new friends. So whilst he's kidding himself, everyone who knows us just shake their heads sadly at the fool. He hates this.

That's why they try and control - because they can. Because their hanging on to their little fabrication of reality.

Silly sods. My decree nisi is with the court - shouldn't be long...yippee. Have a good day.

OK my friends. i could start another thread but - I love this, it's like home.

NM. i'm having major insecurity and trust issues most likely because ideally I'd have met him at least a year hence and all our complications would have been sorted. But we didn't and we're agreed that we just love each other and that's it. thankfully the distance we live away from each other and his DC's still living with him mean that we can't rush things.

However. Let me describe my new relationship a bit.

He always calls, returns my calls and we Skype every day, he shows up on time and we see each other whenever we can, often just for a couple of hours. He has met my RL friends and they all really like him and he them. He's interested in my job my life my kids, my dreams and future plans including marriage and where I want to live. He shares his dreams with me, asks me advice on small and ordinary things and some bigger stuff too. He's kind and gentle, considerate and funny and remembers things I've said and drops them into conversations. His kids and friends know about me and he wants me to meet his friends. He says he loves and wants to spend his life with me and knew this very early on. He's seen me grumpy and sad and doesn't make light of it or try and avoid me. I've never been a 'booty call'. For my birthday he bought me a gold fountain pen and brought a home made birthday cake from where he lives to where I work and then travelled down that night from his sons 21st birthday party to be with me before midnight so he didn't miss mine.

His kids know about me and he's not bothered about his ex P knowing or not as iike me he doesn't have contact although they are not yet divorced. So he is not as far down the road as me legally. However, he doesn't want his DM to know about me yet and is wanting to wait for his DC's to ask to meet me. He talks about a future like 'when I've got my boat' (to live on - what is it about me and men who live on boats?).

So. what the fuck do I have to be insecure about? Does this sound like NM wants the real thing to you?

O dear, Wisey. Is now the time to share my reservations about your new amour with you?

Don't get me wrong - it's undoubtedly been exactly what you needed. The best possible healing balm for a wounded feminine ego is a dizzy, delicious, whirl of romance and passion with a self-assured, attentive, and charming man.

Your charmer has inserted himself effortlessly into your life and has shown that, where you're concerned, nothing is too much trouble for him. He's met your friends who are equally impressed by him. He's been to your home and has met your dd. Although you are living at a distance from each other, he's always there for you.

He's even declared his love for you. A tad too quickly for my liking, but each to their own.

So far, so good. But - and it isn't it a bummer that the 3 letter word rears it's ugly head when everything appears to be going so swimmingly? - doubts are rearing their ugly heads and you're getting the feeling that perhaps all is not quite as it seems.

He's still semi-detached. Has he filed for divorce? If so, when will it be finalised? His dc live with him yet despite his frequent absences, sometimes in the middle of the night when he's morphed into your very own Mr Milk Tray Man, they allegedly haven't expressed any desire to meet you.

If he's been so open and honest about your presence in his life, shouldn't he perhaps be gently encouraging his dc to consider meeting you? Couldn't he arrange for you to visit his home for a meal or a even a snack, thus giving his dc the opportunity to be present or decamp elsewhere if they are vehemently opposed to the notion that their papa has become enamoured with a woman who didn't give birth to them?

He doesn't want to tell his dm about you. Is there a specific reason for this sin by omission? Has he not told his dear mama that he's in the process of divorcing her dil? Is he afraid the shock will cause her to keel over?

However, he does want you to meet his friends. When will this happen and why hasn't he already introduced you to some of them given that he's met so many of yours?

Maybe you feel the imbalance of including him in every aspect of your life but, to date it seems, being excluded from his.

Has he declared his love for you because it's safe for him to do so given the geographical distance between your homes, and the fact that his legal ball and chain is still firmly attached to his ankle?

Is he a man who's in love with love; in love with the idea of being in love and of being all things to his beloved, but whose bubble bursts when the reality of living with her intrudes on his fantasy dream?

My hitherto unexpressed concern for you was that should Mr SmoothyChops NM let you down, you'd be distraught and that you'd feel even more depairing than you did when PTM did the dirty on you.

But, you know what, Wisey? I reckon that if this comes to pass you'll shed a couple of tears, snap your fingers, and bounce straight back 'cos you are one helluva woman and no man will ever be able to destroy your self-confidence again.

Your liaison with NM began as a delightful late summer romance. Whether it survives love in a cold climate remains to be seen but, however it pans out, you've had a ball - and if it goes tits up you'll not only survive, honey, you'll thrive.

It's moved a little too fast for my liking.

Izzy. Thank you.

He's been to a sol but hasn't started proceedings yet and I've asked him whether for him it really is all over. Yes, it is no matter what happens between us. He's only concerned about one of his DC taking it badly, I've been 'skype introduced' to his DD.

I asked him if he was worried that we'd settle into some kind of 'normality' that he doesn't want (as you say, is he in love with being in love). last weeked we 'played house' at a friends and did 'ordinary' things. And at the end he referred to what i'd said, and it felt like he was saying 'it works'.
His DM apparently will give him a hard time - she will say he should wait a long time before getting involved and won't understand that he's just met someone who he fell in love with. I've said I can tolerate this for now because i am doing the same with my DP's but that I don't feel comfortable going out with a man who is still married. So he has said he'll move things on even though he knows it will get nasty between him and his DW (they row every time they talk).

Yet he hasn't done anything to move it on. And yes, I am thinking that I'm taking the risks, and despite on one level it feeling like he's totally comfortable and trusts me to confide in me and be there for me, I am thinking that now he's got me he has slipped into a kind of 'I don't have to try so hard now, i can just be me' kind of thing. Which is fine, but it leaves all the other stuff untouched.

So I have to address it with him. i've told him that if this is all too much too soon, or if I just complicate his life by being in it that I'm an adult and I can deal with the consequences (i.e. I can just walk away). He hasn't taken me up on that.

I'm seeing him today. I'm going to say these things. I can't ignore how I feel. He knows there's something up and asked me last night if I'd had enough after trying to get me to tell him what's clearly on my mind. I guess this is the bit of any relationship where once the first flush fades it's time for the nitty-gritty, and deciding if there's enough liking for it to move onto another level. I'm going to check out what he's said and be straight with him.

Thanks again. will be back, no doubt.

How long has he been separated for and how long have you both known each other for? I think it's wonderful that you have some joy in your life but there was an alarm bell going off for me when he talks about wanting to spend the rest of his life with you. We know you're absolutely wonderful of course, but I'm worried that he hasn't really had the time to really get to know everything about you to be able to say something like that with full substance behind it and might, as suggested above, be in love with the idea of love, or be so delighted that he's met someone lovely after a traumatic time that he's a bit bowled along by it.

Did any of that make sense?

What were the reasons for the split with his ex?

I think you know, Wisey, that this isn't a question of 'if' this has all been too much too soon.

You are legally and morally free to look for romance or whatever you want with members of the opposite sex. NM isn't.

Effectively, you have become an OW and I doubt that's going to be sitting comfortably with you. By entering and continuing your relationship with a married man, you have compromised your personal integrity which is not a reassuring place to be.

I doubt you need me to tell you that in the absence of any legal document that dates his separation from his dw there is potential for your affair to have unexpected and unwelcome repercussions, especially as their relationship cannot be said to be harmonious.

After all you've been through there's no way I want to rain on your parade, honey, but it seems to me that you are best advised to put your relationship with NM on hold until such time as he is in possession of a decree nisi and is free to woo you.

Relegating him to occasional skype sessions may give him the impetus he needs to get his arse in gear and do what needs to be done if, as he says, his marriage is dead in the water.

I'm aware this is easy advice to give and not so easy to act on, but if you continue on this footing all you'll be doing is playing at having an intimate relationship in much the same way as you spent a weekend playing house with him.

Is he a man who's in love with love; in love with the idea of being in love and of being all things to his beloved, but whose bubble bursts when the reality of living with her intrudes on his fantasy dream?

Im sorry to say too but yes it does sound like things are moving a bit too fast .......... and perhaps you DO realise it Wisey.

I'm one of the brigade that believes we need time to be on our own before we start looking out for fresh meat but it wasnt for me to say that anyone else should. A year after seperation is usually a good length of time to be on your own and find out how you tick on your own.

I don't think I could put it any better than Izzy, so I wont even try.

I hope things start to pan out for you and if they dont work out with this one their will always another one along on the next bus - if that is what you want.

oh goodness.

OK he's been separated about as long as me after his then DW had an OM and then NM ended the marriage which is why the dc stayed with NM.

Am i an OW? Not in my mind. We were both out of our relationships before we met and my decree nisi was, to me, merely a piece of paper which spelled the legal end of my marriage - the actions that killed it for me were ptms affairs and the lies he told me for years. NM is in a very similar situation. My concern about NM not being divorced yet have been more about how secure i feel and that's a hangover from meeting NM rather sooner than I'd thought I'd meet someone who I really really like. but i was on my own for a long time even whilst married and so was NM.

I guess it could blow up and someone could come gunning for me - but since I am free to phone NM's home whenever i wish, his dc's (and other relatives but not his DM) are fully aware their D is in a new relationship with me and they are ok with it i'm not sure what anyone can do to me given I am acting in good faith. To me an OW is someone who actively has an affair with someone who is still living with their DP and the DP is unaware of the new relationship which damages the marriage. thats definitely not the case here and if it were you are right - I would have run a mile at the first whiff.
So it's about it all being so soon and having to slow things down, right down, have lots of fun and not analyse the joy out of this.

Thank you for being so candid. My perspective is back where it should be. My feet are back on the ground. I am listening and taking it all in.

Hiya!

I do have some reservations about NM, but definitely don't think you're in the OW role, for the reasons you give. Sometimes things are just messy!

Hiya saffy! V rigorous analysis of the delaying tactics. Hope you're OK apart from the usual twuntiness.

Wisey, you're a better woman than I to take the accusation of OW so well.

Izzy, when I read your first post I was right behind you. It was blinding but I have to take issue with this quote from your second, which went a bit too far I?m afraid:

You are legally and morally free to look for romance or whatever you want with members of the opposite sex. NM isn't. Effectively, you have become an OW and I doubt that's going to be sitting comfortably with you. By entering and continuing your relationship with a married man, you have compromised your personal integrity which is not a reassuring place to be.

I have been enjoying seeing a few guys. My decree nisi only came through yesterday. Does this mean that I was not legally and morally free to have these liaisons? Of course I was morally free - there was no lying, no skulking in the shadows, no manipulation. The moment I felt ready to date I was morally free. Each and every man I?ve seen knew from the off that I was ?just? separated but not divorced and not one of them cared.

An OW is someone in the shadows. An OW is someone who drains the life out of a relationship from those shadows. An OW is someone who has no self-respect. An OW is someone who has no concept of putting the needs of others ahead of her own needs - not even the needs of the man she?s after, because she?s only feeding her own needs by making him feel like a god.

Someone who seeks romance when they are separated but not yet divorced is not an OW (or an OM) and Wisey is not and would never think of herself in that way.

You were right to question whether or not Wisey?s NM is over his marriage, given that the divorce has not yet started but that just means NM may be waiting for the final wounds to heal before starting his fight. I know that in my case, I have been slow to complete the financials because I know that when I do it is going to hurt. I will be involved in the worst fight of my life. I know that I will be fighting the combined force of my ex and OW who will be standing side-by-side and that will be hard. So I have been biding my time, waiting until I know I?m ready for the bile that will come forth. Yes, my decree nisi?s been trundling through but that?s all. That?s the easy bit.

I totally get that some people can?t be a whirlwind of coping AND divorcing. They can be separated. They can be alone. They can be figuring out their new lives. All of that is a big enough struggle and burden without adding the technical side of getting on with a divorce. Seeking romance in that context is just fine. Just fine. Not immoral. Not illegal. Not unethical. Human and vulnerable yes but immoral? No.

Take care with bandying around the OW label. I know you meant well but that hurt.

It would appear that I have taken one of your statements a tad too literally, Wisey.

Insodoing in no way did I intend to imply that you were a Jezebel singing the siren's song to seduce a lawfully wedded husband from his dw; far from it. IMO you are a model of moral rectitude and on the subject of morals I will say no more than, broadly speaking, I believe that it is the province of every individual to square their own conscience.

However, from a legal perspective and in the absence of a properly authenticated deed of separation, until such time as a lawful marriage is dissolved by a Court of Law a spouse who engages in sexual intercourse with other parties is committing adultery.

In these days of no-fault divorce and a more concilatory approach to the dissolution of marriages, it is perhaps easy to overlook the fact that any alleged parties to a spouse's adultery who are not named in the divorce petition may, unless the Court directs otherwise, be made co-respondents.

Although naming parties to adultery is generally discouraged, a particularly vengeful aggrieved spouse may decide to go for the jugular seek costs against any co-respondent(s), or may simply name names as a means of establishing their complete lack of culpability in the breakdown of their marriage - this is not uncommon in certain social and cultural circles.

The fact that any adultery may have taken place after the spouses are alleged to have ceased living with each other will not necessarily be taken into account in the manner in which an unfairly named party may wish it to be and, as I'm sure you know, proving otherwise after a false allegation has been made has tarnished many an otherwise good name - as well as racking up legal costs.

Although our interaction on this board has been limited, I regard you as a 'virtual mate' and, as such, as with my rl mates, I endeavour to look out for my friends every which way including loose.

When I read your comment I am thinking that I'm taking the risks I assumed that you were aware of possible clear and present danger and that you were beginning to feel the strain of being, in the eyes of the law, a party to NM's adultery.

Jeez, in mentioning the 'A' word yet again I feel like I'm digging myself into an even bigger hole. C'mon Wisey, help me out of the pit if for no other reason that any misjudgement on my part was solely due to my desire to watch your back and deny PTM any cause to gloat at a later date.

Please accept my sincere regrets if my candidness has in any way hurt or offended you, and I equally sincerely hope you will understand that my possibly ill-expressed response was motivated solely by my concern to look out for your best interests and advise you accordingly.

Oh hey!!

Fab posts from youdozer, B&A and Izzy.

You're all right, in your different ways.

It is messy. It is complicated. NM isn't ready to face the fight yet, he's had enough for now but I know he's sure it's over and he's sure how he feels about me.

And I know you are all watching my back. That's how come I've been able to be so abundantly clear with NM about where I stand on all the issues wrt his not being legally free yet - and in response he's going to see his stbx to discuss selling the house, and the divorce settlement. Like me, he isn't wealthy and will be looking to settle amicably if possible. If it means we have to stop seeing each other to avoid any further nastiness, we've discussed doing that too (reluctantly, and only whilst the divorce is pending).

It's fine Izzy - I can't ask my virtual friends to be honest with me only when it suits. Your further post really spells out where you're coming from and I can see you're not flaming me.

I keep saying this - you don't know how much you have helped me survive this year AND come out of it a better, more together and rounded woman.

I know who I am. I know I have immense potential as a person. I'm not afraid of my own power.

And I know that I am someone who enjoys being part of a monogamous couple. I enjoy sharing my world with people and I want them to share theirs with me freely.

Somtimes, however - the timing just stinks.

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way by what I said. You have been outstanding since things started falling apart in your life and anyone who says differently is lying. You have been a great example of strength and morality to any person going through the same.

I had to read and re-read to find the bit where it said about you being OW. I certainly dont believe you to be the OW either. You are free to do what you wish with your life as is NM. I am in the camp that if both parties are separated then neither is OP.

Some people just dont feel the need or want to rush into a divorce and that is their perogative too.

I was in no rush for divorce though I was sure marriage was over. I was actually 7 years separated before my divorce absolute came through. 5 years separated before I even put in for divorce. This doesnt mean that any guy I went into a relationship with was OM.

Bottom line is, YOU do what you want to do irrespective of what others think or say as it is your life.

Have a good weekend everyone. xx

I'm certainly not offended if anything I'm touched by everyone's concern.

Just to clarify though; what i meant when i referred to me taking the risks i meant that i was introducing NM to my RL friends and family and it felt a bit one-sided - like it was me driving it along. But it's changed since then and it's much more equal and i'm fine.

Its a long time since i dated and i'm also a lot older so the rules feel a bit different - no playing hard to get, no waiting the requisite 3 days before phoning and no hiding from potentially difficult conversations. actually it's quite liberating in many ways.

this evening i have the dubious pleasure of an email conversation with ptm about our mortgage which needs renewing at the end of the year and won't wait for him to get back into mediation (joy). That should be interesting.

Hows things lying with you Wisey ??

Wisey, as always, your strength..your very essence always amazes me.

I do not think of you as OW. I think time is elastic. For some it can take ages, for others, less time. Everyone is different and you need to work out how you feel about everything.

I am about to go on my very first date next Friday. And guess what I know it will end in sex; probably very good sex if our chats have anything to go by. He is much taken with me; my looks, my intelligence and the fact that I do not want to have a relationship. And if after next Friday, we do not see each other again, then that is ok. But I have a feeling that we will. We both want the same sort of things, and a lot of it. He is deliciously handsome too...and younger...

Ha ha boasting by stealth.

But my point is that do what you feel happy about. You do not have to justify yourself and your actions to anyone.

I am so happy that you are happy and NM seems lovely. That is good enough for me.

xxxx

Hello

Been away alot!!!!

Things are great actually. NM has told his DM and his kids want to meet me!

Also my eldest DS met NM last night and they really hit it off. So all in all, good things are happening here.

Not the case with ptm however. he has failed to deliver the stuff for mediation to go on so we are going to court - the why's and wherefore's are beyound my comprehension but it's now going to cost much more to free myself than i originally hoped. Such is life and ptm.

I just say good for you Wisey, you have too much integrity and self respect to be OW.
You deserve to be treated well & I truly hope you will be, the timing may stink...or it may be just right and you will get the extra support you need with the forthcoming mediation wrangles.

good luck to you x

It's official (apparently).

I'm a crap mum. Why?

DD hates me. I'm behaving like a 16 year old with a NM who I 'don't even know' and when he dumps me, I'm 'going to be sorry because DD doesn't want to live here any more'.

That and a load of other crimes I commit which include (but not exhaustively)

Drinking wine.

Singing so she can hear me

Skyping so she can hear me

Buying myself a laptop so I can have privacy

Not spending any time with her/not knowing what's going on in her life

Not talking to her

Forcing her 27 yr old brother to (finally) make plans to leave and move in with long term GF (all my fault).

So. This is the price for putting some of my own needs in line with my DD, and even ahead of hers in some instances (like the right to a sex life).

I have told DD that I'm sorry I'm not the DM she wants but I have always tried to be and that I love her and don't want her to go but I can't force her to stay. It's very hurtful to hear she seems to want NM to dump me so she can say 'I told you so, you stupid fool'.

I don't know what I want you to say. I just wanted to write it down and get it off my chest.

Oh dear. I have absolutely no experience with older children as mine are only 4 and 2. My instinct though says to listen to her with the respect as the young adult she is and take her comments and views seriously. I'm sure others with more wisdom and experience than I will be along soon. It sounds like she is still adjusting to all the changes (of course, who wouldn't be) and may feel threatened that NM is going to take her mother away, as OW has done with her father, as well as dealing with all the usual shit and angst that comes in those years of transition between child and adult. I know you will tread carefully, parents splitting up is one of the most traumatic experiences that kids can go through and it can have lifelong ramifications (and I know it was not within your control which makes it doubly frustrating). Maybe some family counselling for the two of you might be the best way to go? We're all stumbling along as best we can in these new circumstances that have been forced upon us and none of us are experts.

Much love wisey, try not to take it personally - I'd have been surprised if there had been no emotional fallout at all at some point. Stay strong xxx

Thank you wellthatsdoneit I think I'll see what kind of family work is available in my area. It does feel like I'm treading on egg shells all the time and that's not healthy for any relationship.

Suspect saffy might say DD is trying it on again!

Has ptm been winding her up, suggesting that she move in with him?

I don't think so, apart from asking her to spend christmas with him and OW. I've been wondering whether having NM is worth the hassle tbh - it's beginning to take the shine off somewhat.

Don't say that wisey . Bet dd will come round.

What're your plans for xmas?