Plucking up the courage to tell DH I want to separate. Any advice?

[minxthemanx]

Deep breath. Have made the decision that I cannot go on being unhappy in this marriage, and it is affecting the children. Have posted on here lots of times so many of you know the details, but in a nutshell, DH buggers off doing his 'hobby' for days, weekends and, at the moment, 8 days in Milan (nice). His behaviour over the years has been totally selfish and unreasonable, and most people on here have said he's a selfish arse. He's not a bad person, and v good with the DC who love him to bits, but has not listened, learned or considered my feelings in anything. In December DS1 was very poorly, in and out of hospital, and on the day I came home from hospital with him, following scans that drew a blank, DS buggered off to Barcelona for a hockey tournament. At that point I decided I wanted to separate, and was all geared up to tell him. Then DS1 deteriorated badly - turned out it was a burst brain aneurysm and he was critical in Gt Ormond St for 3 days. Has made an astounding recovery, tho we were told he may not survive at the time. Anyway, that was so traumatic that I couldn't then start the process of separation - emotionally exhausted.

However, DH has now been in Milan for 7 days and missed 2 weekends with the boys, all end of term activities, sports day, and DS1's final cricket match of the season tomorrow and celebratory bbq. Considering DS1 nearly died 6 months ago, this is a big deal to me. DS1 is very upset that his Dad won't be there. DH gets back Sunday evening, then work all week. Next Saturday, first day here for a fortnight, he is going to Lords. I have asked him to reconsider this, as unfair on the DC, he says no, it's been organised a year, anyway I'll see them on the Sunday.

BTW DS1 and I were back in Gt Ormond St for another operation only a fortnight ago.

I've had enough and I want a separation. I know, deep down, this is the right thing for DC and me - I am so unhappy, and at times lose patience with the boys when it's DH I'm so bloody angry with. I dread telling the boys as they adore him and will be devastated.

Advice, please, for damage limitation for the children. Also, we have a holiday in Cornwall booked for August - am tempted to cancel it and hope I can get some money back (I'll have to look at my travel insurance), or do you think have the holiday, grit my teeth (again) and start proceedings when we get back? Sorry so long. I am so tired and emotionally drained.

PS: ofc ourse he should go to counselling too. (my predicament was in case he refused but he has agreed so good. However I feel that 'going' counselling it is not always the same as 'doing' it, iykwim. My dh came and at first was quite pleased but they lost him after two sessions. after that he just sat there disengaged and then stopped. I do not blame him, I felt it too, we were not going anywhere.)

Thanks for the support Allquiet- I was beginning to feel that I was a lone voice in the crowd.

I hope your counselling works for you this time.

You are absolutely right about the fact that no one can change anyone else's behaviour. That is a fundamental "rule" of any behaviour-changing process.

We can only change our behaviour- and others will adapt to it.

No matter how much anyone pleads, begs or threatens, some people will not change. Maybe they are incapable, maybe they don't want to.

The ball is then firmly in the other person's court to change their behaviour.

MInx your DH is saying all the right things now- it's going to be interesting to see if he follows through.

Maybe the holiday should not be such a big deal? If you can bury your differences for a week and enjoy your time with your boys, then that would be good for them.

I think a lot depends on what is going on in your head. You have spent the best part of the week thinking you were going to divorce him- now he is saying the right things you are having to do mental gymnastics and try to be positive about your future.

The question is- are you willing to try? Or is your mind made up and you will simply go though the motions, not really trying, until he trips up again, and you will have another example to use as a lever to initiate divorce?

I think you need to think this through very carefully, as your feelings are they key to it having a chance to work- or not.

Just had a read of this thread OP. Very interesting. WTF is going on here? I have never met this guy but I actually hate him. The going off to Barca the day after his son got out of hospital is bordering on the obscene.
ameliagrey - your message here seems full of ambiguity - what are you saying? That she should give this knobber another chance? Or not? If so, this begs the question, what does a guy have to do to get dumped these days?

maurice I am suggesting she thinks about what she wants. It's not up to me or you or anyone to tell her whether to stay or go.
I don't know why you ask what a guy has to do to "get dumped these days"- that seems a rather silly and shallow remark.

Oh girls please don't fall out over this! Amelia, you have talked a lot of sense and I am really questioning what I want. If he had said these things 3 years ago when I first asked him, we wouldn't have got to this stage. But it is the fact that he's not considered me all this time, and is now making a desperate last bid to do the right thing that makes it hard. He's even said he will not go to Lords on Saturday - again, another huge change from him. So he is definitely trying. But I don't know how I'm supposed to suddenly find the right feelings for him again, just because I backed him into a corner. Have spoken to my GP this morning and she was great. Will listen to solicitor this afternoon and see counsellor tomorrow. The holiday seems like a big deal becuase we have to make a decision - cancel it and lose £700 then find money to take the DC somewhere else (they DESPERATELY need a holiday after this shitty year), or go ahead with it, with DH, trying to put a brave face on. And what if we all have a great time? He'll think that everything is fine now.

Not a shallow remark ameliagrey - just the blunt truth.
I guess I just find it v v depressing watching situations like this as I have seen them so many times. Woman is treated like a complete doormat by somebody for years. She gives him a wake-up call. He pretends he will buck his ideas up and plays an absolute blinder to try win her back. And then, two months down the line - like night following day - they are back to square one with him behaving like a twat again. People waste years and years of their lives - the best years - in this absolutely crazy scenario. They can never get these years back.
I generally would never try and tell somebody how to live their life but when it is as black and white as this, well, it is tempting.
Good luck OP.

minx - I have to say that he sounds as though he is serious about this.

I also agree with Random in that you need a trial separation if you are going to put the divorce on hold and you need a 6 month cooling off period, where he goes to counselling separately and maybe you also go to joint marriage counselling if YOU think that can help you to forgive him.

He has to respect your wishes that you NEED time apart, not just a few nights but an agreed amount of time.

He can still see the boys, you're not stopping him seeing them, you're just stopping the marriage for a while.

I also think that you need to write down what it is you think you want today. Take it with you to the solicitor and go over the most important points with them.

Be honest, not mean about him. I know he drives you nuts and this is all 'too little too late' but he is appearing to finally listen. Don't be fooled though, he is in panic mode right now so this has to be a long term change, not an overnight whim!

How long that will last remains to be seen so if I were you, I'd carry on as you were going to before your chat and before he put the picture up!

Nothing has changed really, not yet. He has to prove to himself, he has to prove that he truly means it, that YOU are the most important thing in his life, and the boys.

He has to start again and remember why he married you in the first place, go back to basics, take the pressure off.

Just enjoy spending time being a dad and a husband. He should act his age in some respects! No more bloody jollies off with the hickey club. He needs to prioritise.

Go on holiday, I would but only for the boys. Make it crystal clear that you are two separate adults. Separate beds, separate lives from here on in. The only thing you have in common now it the boys. Make that point over and over until he really gets it!!

Don't keep beating him with the same stick though, he may we know that he's fucked up or this could all be a bluff. Time will tell.

I think that you should make your points one last time and then let it go. He has to own this, this is his fault.

I believe you, that you have spent years trying to tell him that you want him back. You want a lover, husband, partner and friend. I get that.

So, this has to be up to him to fix, just like all the other things around the house that he's ignored so far, he has to fix his marriage. xx

minx - Lay down the law. Big bold black and white letters. Tell him straight on your terms why you are all going on holiday.

Tell him that this holiday is for the boys, not you and certainly not him. This holiday is not a sticking plaster to cover the scrapes, this won't heal you or him.

You have to let him be an adult in this, so if he thinks all is hunky dory when you get back, then that's his problem.

He is old and wise enough not to behave like that i hope.

There is no quick fix to your marriage. It's fallen apart over a number of years, it may well take that long to put back together if that's what YOU decide to do xx

mauricetinkler nothing is ever balck and white. If only things were this easy...

Oh Minx, what difficult decisions! Everyone on this thread is united in just wanting you to be happy, but it seems to me that right now perhaps you need the RL support of family and friends who know you & your DH, more than you need us squabbling over what we think is best for you to do. (And now I'm about to tell you my opinion!!!)

A few thoughts:

As you say, even if he does suddenly turn around and start being the husband you have wanted all along, how do you forgive the years of neglect?

Are you going to go for counselling on your own first? It would probably be a good idea for you to explore how YOU feel and what YOU want, before you go into couples therapy with your DH.

Can you go on holiday just for your DC? Maybe seeing a counsellor before you go to discuss how you will manage? If you have a great time, how wonderful for the DC! And if your DH then thinks everything is fine again, but you know it isn't, so what? You just tell him one good holiday can not mend the damage done over x number of years and keep on with separating. Surely very few marriages (or long term relationships) just end cleanly? There is always a period of ambiguity, moments where you think you can rekindle the flame and times of knowing for certain it is dead and all you are doing is trying to breathe life into a corpse. So treasure the good moments when you get them.

There is a lot of wisdom in those saying that no-one can change another person's behaviour, all we can do is change our own behaviour and see how differently the other person reacts. However, I would hate for you to take from this thread the thought that you somehow need to work harder and that it is how you have acted that has meant your marriage has got to this point. It sounds to me like you have already taken a huge burden of responsibility onto your shoulders, far far more than your fair share, and you have slowly been crippled under the weight. Now it is your time to start shaking that burden off, not adding to it.

That your DH is responding by trying to be the ideal husband all of a sudden is no surprise. Is he gripped in panic and fear about what will happen to him if he loses his family, or is he feeling utter remorse at his failure to support you & his DC in the past? I suppose what I'm getting at is is he responding from what is ultimately a selfish motive (this is me hinting at the Aspergers again - sorry!), or do you think that the shock of you being serious about leaving him has finally made him realise his failings and he is desperate to make amends? Because he should be feeling sick with guilt at how he has treated you & your DC, not sick with fear that his world is going to change.

Just try to keep putting yourself first and take it all a day a time.

minx that is what I meant by "mental gymnastics".

You cannot possibly switch back to wanting him and trusting him overnight. Impossible.

It may be that it is too late- I have been in situations where I have got what I first wanted but it was too late and I couldn't get my feelings back. It happens.

However, given that it's not just about you and him but about the kids' lives too, then maybe you do have to try for a while anyway?

If he was going to be living at home anyway, there is not a lot of difference between that and going away- excpet he will be there 24/7.

From his point of view it would give him the chance to bond with the kids again and turn over a new leaf.

If you can bury your anger and resentment for that time it may well be a good move.

I don't think that his moving out is the answer because it does not give him the opportunity to be a hands on dad- only at a distance, which is rather contrived.

And in any case, you cannot force him to go- and he doesn't want to.

There is also I assume the issue of cost- do you have between £500-£800 plus bills, plus food, plus council tax etc. a month for a rented house or flat for him to live in?

My personal advice is that you give it time- see if he lives up to what he promises and take it from there.

Thanks, I can't tell you how much help you've all been. It is just so good to be able to pour things out here, and think things over, without the face to face tears and emotions I have with RL friends. Have just been on comfy sofa in Starbucks with a friend for an hour, and we've had a good laugh about the manic lawn mowing and getting the tool box out!

I am adamant that I am not going to this family wedding. Don't want to upset the bride, she is lovely, but I really am not going to play happy families at a wedding, the way I feel.

I will ask him again to move out for a while, 2 months, 3 months, to give us some space to breathe and let me be happy Mum with the DC. I expect he will still say he has nowhere to go, and refuse.

Re holida - I agree that we should try to have a holiday. This has been the most awful year, for all of us, and we need to wind down and relax. Now, and this is going to sound SO shallow, if we were going somewhere hot and sunny, I would be far happier about doing it. Hot and sunny= relaxing by pool, kids happy, me happy reading my books ect. But no, we're going to Cornwall and the forecast is CRAP. So I can envisage rainy days, getting in the car driving around, spending a fortune going to the Eden project anbd anywhere else indoors, and me being fed up. I can just see the tension mounting.

From Terraviva: "However, I would hate for you to take from this thread the thought that you somehow need to work harder and that it is how you have acted that has meant your marriage has got to this point. It sounds to me like you have already taken a huge burden of responsibility onto your shoulders, far far more than your fair share, and you have slowly been crippled under the weight. Now it is your time to start shaking that burden off, not adding to it. "

I totally agree with this as I was the first to say this to myself, that I had done enough and I would not do anymore. However the truth is that whether you decide to stay or go it is still YOU to take a decision.
I chose couple therapy because I thought that if I went on my own I was the one with the problem and the one that had to change while he kept being who he was I was looking at it from the wrong angle. I cleary had an agende, which they did point out, which was to change him because he was wrong. I could not see that I was wrong too. I kept saying "I am not myself, this is not my life etc" but my dh is not a moster. why did I give him this power? why did I not stand up for myself? Can you see that in this way it is still all about him in your head? Breaking up is one way we have to push them out of our head of course but maybe there are other ways.
Now for me the way I see therapy is not anymore 'to save the relationship' but 'to save me'. So it is about me! Who cares what he thinks or does etc. It is somewhat liberating. If you start going about your life putting your wellbeing first you will not feel so much lighter as your head will not be filled with the other person anymore, not so much, but with yourself. Because that is how it should be really.

One way I found it helps to see things into perspective is to compare yourself now to yourself at the beginning of a relatioship, or dating. The beginning for me is so much fun and easy because one does not obsess with what the other person thinks and most importantly one is a lot more self-sufficient mentally so that if something is not to one's liking one says it. I may be talking for myself of course, but my feelings came first then to a certain extent. Now, slowly, my feelings are inexistent, even to me, let alone to someone else. Of course they trample all over them, we do it to ourselves!!!!

sorry Minx I get carried away but it is a sore spot for me too.

Sorry, but if he is serious about 'loving you so much' and wanting to make amends for his shitty behaviour, he would do what you are asking and move out.

The fact that he won't shows that his uppermost feeling is to keep a toe-hold, to keep what he has and to fight for THAT, not fight to make things RIGHT. Because what would make things right - for you as well as him - might be to split. He is fighting against that, not fighting for anything else. Not even understanding anything else, I'd bet. Nothing ever seems to have really mattered except himself, how do you unlearn that if you've maintained that position despite marrying, despite having children?

It's so fundamental. I don't think that he would ever be able to change. Even when your son had been gravely ill he wanted to spend time having fun more than he wanted to give you support. He honestly isn't able to think of anyone but himself - why interpret this as anything other than more of the same? Yes of course he is trying! Of course he sounds serious! He doesn't want to lose his home or family - FOR HIMSELF. FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT.

I would say, quite simply: 'If you are honestly now able, after all these years, to consider my feelings, what I might want and need, even a SMIDGEN, then you will prove it to me by giving me the space that I am asking for. If you won't, then I know that you are - still - only thinking of WHAT YOU WANT, and I will simply proceed with separation.'

Any chance that HE could take the children on holiday? You know, care for them and spend some real time with them? You wouldn't be able to trust him to do that, would you? And I don't blame you!

Living apart will be good I think. A good way for you too see how life really is on your own and for him too. He may have had it far too comfortable at home.Thinking space. It is so easy to keep going from one day to the next, from one good moment to an awful one till it is a lifetime. (My MIL separated in her 70s after having put up with an absent husband and a life she didn't like for 40 years - not good. The sad thing is that the husband was not happy either but would not admit it. When one is so unhappy I do not believe the other one can be happy.)

If he refuses to move out, then you know he's still not putting you & your needs first.

Minx just a small thing, but, now you've told people you want to separate from him...your friends and family have all said they don't like him, they never have liked him and they think you are doing the right thing. This is highly significant, if your friends and family all dislike him and think you are better off without him, then you are doing the right thing.

I remember when my friend told me of her divorce and I finally told her my DH had always seriously disliked her husband and had thought him a real bully...she burst into tears and said "he was, he was!".

Sometimes our friends see things more clearly than we do.

I also agree with those who say he is only trying to change becasue he realises this is a point of no return. Your voice and body language must be so more assertive than it was before, well done. You deserve better than him.

Phew! I have just read through your entire thread minx. If I can add anything further I will, you have had lots of good advice, and varied which is nice to see.

While I read this the thing that stood out to me was the hockey and cricket. If someone's in a team it's a major commitment - he can't NOT go on the 'jollies' and trips. Giving that up may help a lot. I bet most of his team don't have families, this isn't just a hobby, it's a sports commitment.

The next question that stood out was the holiday. You didn't seem keen from the start, but only now you have said it's because you don't want that kind of holiday. Perhaps you could do with being with more assertive about what you really want? I was going to suggest that you let him take dcs on holiday and you go off on a singles holiday, in the sun, to have some me-time. If you want to go with dcs, commit to your type of holiday for next year.

Another thing was a couple of alarm bells about his behaviour being potentially abusive - one is telling YOUR mother that you are mentally unstable in one way or another, the other is the consistent ignoring and disregarding of you. There's a point where this is just general blokeishness, but there's a point where it becomes deliberate and a means of control (possibly by exhausting / confusing / obstructing you).

The other thing is the mothers involved. He calls your mother and you call his? What's that all about? I wonder whether the two of you are truly independent as a family. It is a good thing to get advice from someone who knows your partner, but possibly better to get it from someone that knows you best. I remember it taking years before dh cared more about my opinion than his mother's.

Regarding your son and him going into hospital. As a parent of a disabled child, I know that men (not all, not always), deep down, just can't cope with illness in their offspring. It's a deepseated primal instinct, completely unacceptable in the 20th century, but it might go some way to explaining him blanking this out. His behaviour in prioritising cricket and hockey over you and your very ill son is not acceptable but it's also not the first time it's happened. Bear in mind I'm not sure how your son is still affected. This is frequently grounds for separation because more often than not there is very little men are able to do about this. If this attitude does not change I would say it will never work out.

But in the end it may help for you to consider whether, if he changed and did all the things you want him to do, would you stay with him? It may be that actually you have fallen out of love. It happens. If this is the case you may have to let him go.

I wish you all the best, you seem to be making the best of a bad lot.

Barbie thanks for your comments. DH isn't in any team for cricket or hockey. He's 52 ffs. He does not need to do it. He just likes it. End of.

Minx- I think this is very difficult. I don't want it to look as if I am supporting your Dh because I am not. However, I do feel he is now in a damned if he does and damned if he does't situation. He has moved a hell of a long way from yesterday. If he offers to change, some people are chorusing "Oh he won't do it, it will never last, it's too late..." blah blah.

Maybe give the guy a chance? if you are not willing to give him a chance, then just end it.

A few people have come back saying that he should now also be doing XYZ and if he doesn't, then he does't love you.

That is quite an extrapolation. Doing whatever someone wants if it's not what you want for yourself is not always a sign of love - is it?

I really cannot see what moving out will achieve. You want to "test" him with him living with you- not arranging to see the boys by putting dates in his diary. What would that prove?

Either you give him a chance, and try to be positive about it- and with good will- or you don't.

If you go into it thinking he will fail, or the marriage will fail, or the holiday will be a wash out due to the weather, then it will.

There is no doubt that a negative attitude breeds failure. (I am not making this point at you Minx- talking generally.)

But if you do go down this route of simply going through the motions while he has had some kind of Eureka moment and is genuinely trying to save his marriage, then you aren't being fair. You may as well save him the effort.

That may sound harsh- not meant to be. I genuinely want to help- God, I've a list of work to do today that is begging for my time- but I am taking time out because I care even though I don't know you.

Good luck.

Mmm, I know what you mean. Him giving up hockey is a huge step forward - he has never offered to do this before. Plus not going to Lords (set in stone usually and completely unmoveable), and offering to go to counselling. These are all big things. His brother has spoken to me today saying that DH is absolutely beside himself at the thought of losing us. (His bro was lovely and supportive, not taking sides and has told DH he's a prat on many occasions.) I am knackered and don't know what to think. Maybe I should book myself into Champneys or somewhere for a night at the weekend to get away from it all.

Sorry if this has been suggested and answered before, but would it be possible for DH to take the kids on holiday by himself and let you have some time alone at home? That way you get a break, and the kids get to spend quality time with their dad. Obviously you'd miss them, but sounds like you could do with some time to think.

Minx - have you seen the solicitor yet? Did you go?

minx

It's a good sign that everyone's rallying round you now.

If you do decide to stay, make sure you set a deadline and make sure he knows about what he needs to do.

Good idea to take a night off at a hotel.