Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships 2

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Great post, Puppy. I'm going to try to be honest with more people about the abuse. Close friends and some family know, but I won't be telling any 'white lies' to other people either.

Not sorted, you were really let down by your MIL, and the effects of that were huge. I wonder why she thought he was normal?

My DM for years listened to my tales of horrible abuse, and shook her head, saying "Men are awful, aren't they?" I have been disappointed, angry and now just very sad for her that she feels like that. She still states that 9 men out of 10 are like him. Sadly that's been her experience. (All the women in my family are married to abusers.)

I may not be typical, but it didn't occur to me that other people had better marriages. My father was much more physically abusive than my H so I thought I was doing well. Sheesh!

I've often thought that if kids were taught about relationships and red flags in social ed classes (or whatever they're called now), maybe some people could be spared a fate? Or even be able to recognise abuse between their parents, and if not influence change in that relationship, at least not model it in their own relationships.

Pretty awful weekend here, with H trying to conduct an argument with me via the children.

Hi barbie. Are you asking yourself questions about your own parents?

(btw, I think children of abusive couples model one of their parents, and seek out a partner who mirrors the other parent. But the gender is not necessarily the modeling factor: it's not just boys who are sons of abusive men who seek out co-dependent women. In my case, I modeled my enabling father and married a mirror of my abusive mother. Women also use power and control to abuse, if that's how they choose to react to their own dysfunctional upbringing. My Mom and grandmother both did.)

Good morning all,

I know it doesn't help but think perhaps looking for absolute explanation as to why abuse occurred is just our way of fathoming the unfathomable. Lots of people come from difficult/abusive backgrounds and make a conscious effort with partners not to behave like that. I know my sister and BiL both have stuff in the family cupboards - I know my sister's issues obviously - but they are united on trying to do it better. It's when one of the people in the relationship reverts to copying how their parents behaved or how either mother or father behaved that things go wrong.
We are all here because we want change/have chosen change, but we are facing those who lack the courage/insight to work out that fists/nasty words/control is not the way forward.
If you love someone and can truly love then you set them free, free to try and fail, free to make mistakes, free to forgive and to apologise, free to do good things, especially for when children are concerned.
If only it were so easy ... I wonder how many of us would have walked earlier if it wasn't for the kids?

X-post with Barbie.
I don't know why I modeled my relationship on my parents'. But I wasn't aware of it at the time and felt that my H wasn't abusive and that I would never have put up with what my father did to DM. (My H was only infrequently physically abusive, and I hadn't even recognized the sexual abuse or the near-constant EA.)

I guess the bar was set pretty low in my head.

It's the paragraphs, barbie. You need a ^ at both ends of the paragraph.

Re one's "past" - well I didn't have one as such, that is, I lived 23 years in this world before meeting XH but didn't date anyone - late developer! However, just after we got together I went on an already-booked holiday to Greece with a friend's family, and of course he has never, never forgiven me for the things I might or could have got up to, or the very few things I did do that weren't at all shameful. I will never quite forgive myself either, for being too stupid to give him his marching orders the first time he wouldn't believe me. I thought he would learn to know me better and that I was a truthful person. Over 20 years later he was still going on about it. As I pointed out, (a) I didn't do anything, and (b) it wouldn't have mattered if I had, as the only thing between XH and me at the time was a few snogs so I could have shagged the Brigade of Guards with a clear conscience (assuming they weren't married). His favourite line, sneeringly, in front of the DCs: "why can't you just be honest?"

Oh, and bejeezus - I got really foul-mouthed too, for a couple of years. The DCs got quite distressed about it, I'm afraid, and my boss at work had to ask me to moderate my language, which was totally out of character for me. Good news is that once you're away from the arse for a while, much of the impulsion to swear is removed, so I hardly ever do now (except when I'm playing a very irritating game on the PC ).

("arse" isn't swearing, is it? )

Hi Puppy, yes I have been asking questions about my family. My mother, like theregoes's, minimised my situation with dp - it was normal to her.

I agree with you about the gender issue, it's not black and white but I've done a lot of research on this and it does tend to be the case that girls take on victim role and boys take on abuser role. It then gets more confusing as the victim then starts to mimic the abuser in order to reduce the impact on herself (hence the swearing, short temper, aggression). I never did stuff like that before I met dp but sometimes I find myself trying to be on his level.

Anyway I'm playing fair but risky and I'm going to try and get him to understand all of the above. It's his last chance. If he doesn't I'm out. As they say.

barbie agreed: I think wider social pressures do tend to tip girls more than boys into the victim role.

I remember swearing and using insults against stbxh too, and not liking doing it. But he had told me it was a "normal, healthy release of anger" when he did it to me, and ...who was I to argue with the wisdom of his words? So I mimicked some of his abuse because of the way I continued to put his opinions above mine. So weird.

Also because I had anger at being treated that way and some of it exploded outwards unhealthily. I wasn't just submissively echoing him.

But most of my anger I turned against myself. Neither of those ways to direct anger at being mistreated was good. I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with anger constructively as I have no positive role models (...dysfunctional entire family, surprise!).

also: good luck with the confrontation where you try to get him to understand all this.

Could be useful to break it down to really simple statements of fact rather than launching into any psychological explanations about modelling and reactions to abuse, as that may be several steps of analysis too far for him at this stage?

I fear that if you say something like: "I only swear at you and act aggressive, which I never did before, because of the way you treat me" (if that's what you're planning), it gives him a wide open door to say: "Well, that's the case for me too! I only do x, y and z because of the things you do and the way they make me feel!"

Because he would be entirely correct and truthful in saying that: abusers do think that you are responsible for their feelings.

Simple statements of fact could be something like: "You do x, y and z. This makes me feel like a, b and c. Stop doing x, y and z." And be prepared to leave if he continues with x, y and z. Ie. to spare your own feelings if he won't do it.

God I hope I don't sound too prescriptive. I'm just pessimistic about anyone with an abusive personality being able to take any kind of responsibility without throwing it all back in your face and making it your fault, somehow. So I'm thinking the simpler you keep it, the less they have to twist around.

I think the swearing thing is a sign that you are beginning to externalise the anger, that you are turning it outward and not inward. It's a positive thing tbh. It shows that there is a slight lack of respect for the abuser, a loss of fear.

Puppy, simple is good. Don't engage with them. Nod and 'whatever' them, and do your own thing, be passive aggressive, ignore and flout at any and every opportunity.

I think the comment "I only swear at you and act aggressive, which I never did before, because of the way you treat me" should be

"I only swear at you and act aggressive, which I never did before, because I am breaking free, and you no longer call the shots in my life" put that in your pipe and smoke it bully-boy

Violence aside - and tbh, dare I say it here, but if it's not life threatening, an incident that enables you to call the Police and get the fecker removed might prove to be a positive.

I don't think any of us here are in direct contact with men such as Mousey's X are we, it's lower level/emotional/verbal abuse isn't it?

With that in mind, please girls, ask yourselves, what is the worst that could happen if you stand up and tell them where to get off, a major row? he flounces off, better yet he threatens to, or actually LEAVES? What IS the ultimate threat he is holding over each of you to perpetuate this situation?

Can we discuss this here? what IS the big stick your STBXs are using? If you write them down, perhaps we can dismiss/remove the fear, so they no longer hold power over you?

My stbxh said: "I would prefer to kill you and myself rather than let you leave me."

When I was pregnant, he also said: "If you leave me, I will make your life hell."

That felt like pretty big guns. And I believed those threats. Still believe he is enough of a nut to carry either one of them out, tbh.

But you know what? I left because of those threats. Even though I know they could be realised. Because there was no way I could stay with a man who could even think those kinds of things. Even if it kills me. Literally.

Writing the above, I realise that my sentence has the wrong subject: it is not my choosing to leave that might kill me. If I get killed, it will be him doing the murdering, not me.

Responsibility: squarely his. For the verbal and emotional abuse too, obviously.

Puppy, those threats need to be reported and used to their maximum effect. get an injunction/order against him, get YOUR big guns out, the law, the legal system, and through them tacitly tell him to go ff himself.... with the boys in blue right behind you!

Lose the fear, get him forced to stay away from you and live free. He has no right to scare you.

Puppy - that's very serious. A threat to kill is what it is. I believe it is in fact a criminal offence It's not just words, it's extreme and it's meant to control you through fear. Get this down on paper/recorded because it will be used against him when the time comes. As Hissy says.

Under Offences against the Person on the CPS website,

115) Threats to kill, contrary to section 16 Offences Against the Person Act 1861. (Archbold 19-124 to 19-129);

116) Threats can be calculated and premeditated, or said in the heat of the moment. The defendant does not have to have the intention to kill but there has to be an intent that the person to whom the threat has been issued would fear it would be carried out. Where it is doubtful whether the threat carried the necessary intent a charge under section 4 Public Order Act 1986 may be appropriate.

puppy

Most of the examples you've given I have actually said to him, I've been plain and clear and simple and told him like it is, how it makes me feel, even pre-mumsnet knew it was wrong. I've been very specific about actions, changed the way I react, etc. Served it on a platter with trimmings.

The only reason I want to give him the chance to see his behaviour is when I saw his behaviour, through reading the Beverly Engel book (and seeing the counsellor) it changed me so much. It's a last chance for him.

Afternoon Lovely Ladies :)

Some interesting posts today, just wanted to add my experiences... I grew up in a very normal, healthy, loving family with no abuse whatsoever which does make me wonder how I came to be where I am. It also makes me wonder if it is because of this that once I recognised the abuse, I was very quick to address it and start looking for a way out. It was only about 3 weeks ago that I had my lightbulb moment and I am set to move out in the near future (tho' I am having a major wobble which I will post separately about). Nobody minimalised it or normalized it for me. In fact my parents had known all along that my H was not "right" but never felt able to say anything for fear of never seeing me again :( They are incredibly relieved that I've finally seen the light.

With regards to swearing; guilty as charged though I try not to since having the DC. My H swears like he has tourettes and it has rubbed off, likewise with the anger and cynicism to an extent [ashamed emoticon].

Hissy my H doesn't really have a big stick - he doesn't seem to fit the profile where that's concerned. He has told me that if I want to leave he's not going to try & stop me, he knows he can't change my mind. He appears to respect my wishes

Now for the separate post regarding the wobble.

Well I'd just got my head around moving out and living separately whilst H has his counselling (doc has referred him for anger management and prescribed citalopram) and tbh I'd got used to the idea that really my marriage would be over. I do, however, believe that H is genuinely remorseful and accepts that he has issues/behaviour that he WANTS to change - its just whether, from my POV, he CAN change.

Anyway, last 3 weeks have been ok - no incidents & H has been on an even keel for first time in ages. This weekend I went through our new household budgets (his and mine) with him and it was grim reading. We have a lot of debt so I knew we'd be skint but me & the DC will be living hand-to-mouth (no money for clothing, emergencies etc) and H will not be able to afford to contribute because he'll be in pretty much the same boat for the next 10 months or so.

So, he suggested that we ALL move out into my house (its a 2 bed mid-terrace that I have been renting out) and have a fresh start. He proposed renting out the family home thus saving us £700 a month. His argument is that how can I see if he's truly changed if we are living apart? He says he wants to makeover my house and with the extra income treat ourselves to a life - we just exist at the moment due to the debt and it is an added strain on the marriage. I have to say it is tempting BUT it still doesn't help my doubts about his ability to change.

Now I am worried that if I go it alone and find it so hard to manage that I may take him back for the wrong reasons. Would it be better to do as he suggests and move into the smaller house as a family on my terms and with a set of ground rules? He says it will be very obvious if he hasn't changed and he will hold his hands up and move back out. I do believe him. My thoughts are at least this way, I have already uprooted the children and we get to pay off a load of debt with the extra money (and I get a nicely decorated house out of it! )

Ok ladies - let me have it...

WDIM, he doesn't appear to need a big stick does he, you do it to yourself! (sorry!)

He is using his mental instability and your huge capacity to care to keep you ensnared. You see what he has done, a few days of being meek and mild and you are contemplating lumping everyone back into this unhealthy environment, but in a smaller, even more pressurised property? He's angry to lots and lots of people is he? or is it JUST YOU????

Stick to the plan, make him prove to you he HAS changed, this weak attempt from him is not enough! It's not going to be on your terms is it?, never?! He'll be there pissing you off, getting at you and keeping you where he wants you.

YOU PERSONALLY NEED THE FREEDOM, to let the mists and fog clear so you can see what is going on around you.

oooooh that's so tricky. You know me I will be devil's advocate - I won't mention red flags or anything. At least I will think this through for you.

My gut feeling says, give it a chance - if you love him enough. BUT don't move. Keep everything else the same. Otherwise you will get drawn into something and sidetracked from the issue. He really needs to prove himself, long term and moving would be a goal, not the answer to your problems.

Moving could be an incentive, perhaps you could put a one year time limit and see if he can get through it without a relapse. I'd be very wary of moving now as it may just be a way for him to cover himself financially.

Noooooo, WDIM!

You're moving to another house, not another planet (though I hope it feels like one, heh.) If he wants to change, he will change. If he changes, you will see his change happen over time.

If you retain your current family structure your emotional environment will carry on the way it is. Nobody effects deep-seated personal change all in one go. Good therapy often makes you worse to begin with - a few months, or even years. His best chance of changing is without you. Your best chance at clarity is without him. If it's going to work, it will work better separated.

Shunting a farrago of emotional & psychological destabilisation into a smaller house - with building work going on, ffs - would be insanity.

Discuss it with your parents. Then don't do it. He can rent a room if he's that skint.

Hi all,
the big stick that was held over me was other relationships. Internet dating several times followed by the OW. Prettier, they never argued etc, etc. To which I replied well you are not trying to live with her or bring up children with her. Now she may or may not have him, but she has the knowledge of what happened in our relationship.
In the end it was her or DC. I can't care less now, except that DC isn't seeing his father at the moment because of his abuse in front of him. He's made his bed and now will have to lie in it.
So one big stick has been broken in two and now feels much easier to deal with.

Oh, and don't agree to let him makeover your house. I can't believe how much your H resembles the double-barrelled bloke I told you about! He did that, it pushed her over the edge in the end.

You can see the difference in opinion between those of us that have left and the ones that are still there...

I still think that it will be difficult to see change in someone if he's not actually still there. This is the crux of it - you need to decide now, if he did 'change' - would you want him or not?

If you move out and he then changes it could be a complete fabrication and you won't know. The only way you will know is if you stay in the situation you are. Then you have the option to go and you won't be having second thoughts. I can understand that you want to give him a chance.

Such a hard choice.