DH went to strip club last night. 3 dances. Am I stupid & naive to feel so sad about it?

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DH came in at 5am last night. I was relaxed about it as he only goes out infrequently (every couple of months) and I trust him (or should I say, I USED to trust him).

Anyway, to cut a long story short, after initially lying to me, I discovered he went to a very swish and expensive strip club in near Mayfair. He had three dances.

I am upset, I keep imagining gorgeous girls dancing for him, wearing next to nothing and then my DH handing over money to them for the pleasure.

What do others think about this?

And me and AF recently had a right barny with each other on a thread of mines, we both said some very harsh things, much worse than has been said to you I assure you. Neither of us claimed to be bullying the other either.

It's a public forum yes, so all are welcome. But when you post on a site for women (and it is predominantly for women hence the name) that you support women being degraded then obviously people are not going to be happy.

AnotherMum Good point.

Threaders Do you realise that if when your Daughter was older and found out what you had been up to she would get the idea that it is okay to do it? You wouldn't exactly be able to say to her "it's not okay to do it because I don't want strange men leering at you, but it's fine for me to go and be that strange man leering because it's not you I'm looking at".

I never said anyone on here was a bully, I said I will not be bullied into changing my opinion. I was being personally attacked, and the vast majority of you were slamming down my opinion and using sarcastic tone. That's what I would class as being bullied as a group action. So please, drop the "you played the bully card so you must be soft" act, it's getting a bit ridiculous.

For what it's worth, there has been more than one person on this thread who said they themselves didn't think strip clubs were that bad until they worked in one themselves or got to know someone who worked in one. Only after this did it became fully apparent to them how awful they were.

It's therefore a bit much for some (not all) of these same people to say that it should be "obvious" to "most people" that strip clubs are intrinsically exploitative. Clearly to many they are not, otherwise (presumably) these same people would never have thought they were harmless in the first place, before changing their minds. Furthermore, they are legal, which I imagine goes a long way towards convincing those that use them that they can't be that bad.

Again, I personally agree that they do exploit a lot of vulnerable women. But I also think that a fair proportion (I honestly have no idea how many) of customers are likely to see themselves as paying for a service from a woman doing a legal job, who has freely chosen to do this job. Those are the obvious facts. All the exploitation stuff is behind the scenes IMO. I don't believe that all these men are directly getting off on exploitation in the way that some people here claim, any more than all people who watch porn are watching it because they like to get off on seeing people suffer mental/physical/sexual abuse (which to me is what exploitation boils down to - maybe I'm wrong here though, I'm not an expert on this)

In my opinion, some of the people who have put themselves forward for a less stringently "all strip club users = sexist, misogynist, basically pretty evil men" are getting a rough ride. Even if I don't completely agree with some of their points, I have honestly been pretty shocked by the level of venom in some of the comments levelled at them.

"I was being personally attacked, and the vast majority of you were slamming down my opinion and using sarcastic tone"

"AF - honestly, I couldn't give a fuck whether you converse with me or not."

But it's okay for you to talk like that to others?

And I never said you must be soft. I do however, think you are a hypocrite.

Right, I'm going to repeat my experiences of being in a lapdancing club:

I've sat in them. And had a few beers.
I've never had a dance. I've seem the girls doing a pole show because they tend to happen right in the middle of the room. I've never paid for the privilege. So if and when the time comes when my daughter asks me such questions, I'll be open and honest.

I've already admitted that I've had my eyes opened by one or two of the posters on here on have thought about the whole industry from a different perspective, and I'm quite happy to do that whenever a good point is made and is worded in a way other than "you're a thick sexist pig, can't you see what's really happening here?" kind of way. I've not made any personal attacks against any of you, even though I think that a lot of what you are saying is deliberately focussing on the extreme negative.

Yes, it's a public forum and I can't stop you but 'creepy' is a mild way of describing men who go out of their way to defend this stuff, admit that wouldn't want their own daughters to do it, but still defend it. It's illogical, hypocritical and yes, creepy.

You need to understand that the 'extreme negative' for most of us is lapdancing, that's why we focus on it. Get it?

Well we're not exactly going to be looking at the positives are we? (not that I think there are any).

And I am glad that some of the opinions have made you think about it a bit harder, however I haven't actually seen anyone call you a thick sexist pig.

Had kidney op three weeks ago, involving instruments being inserted through my ureter. Was disturbed by the thought that the nice men who introduced themselves to me before the general anaesthetic was administered would shortly be closely scrutinizing my fanjo. (Came round to find no £20 notes tucked in my surgical stockings however.)
My most embarrassing thought, though, was the notion that I might fart - or worse - on them during the op. It got me wondering whether lapdancers gave in to the tempation to squeeze one out into the sweating red faces of their punters. Hard to resist, I'd guess.

Roxy, I've known loads of girls to fart in guys faces during dances. :o Brought me great pleasure knowing that!

Normally it was the ones who would actually cum while the girl was dancing!! < puke emoticon>

riverboat: you've had at least two women telling you what goes on in these clubs on this thread. Is that enough evidence for you? Or is that not as robust as 'But I also think that a fair proportion (I honestly have no idea how many)...' ?
When we realise that what we want to believe isn't always so, even if we like something very much, we surely need to think again.

I'm not going out of my way to defend it, I'm trying to engage in a debate. What do you want me to do, get disagreed with and so hold my hands up and say "oh god I thought everyone thought how I do, therefore I'll shut up now". I thought there might be some on here who would be willing to engage in a sensible discussion on the subject.

Look, obviously we are not up to your standards of debate and we are bullies, so why don't you just go away now.

jenny - huh? As I said in my previous post, I do (and have for a long time prior to this thread) believe that these women are being exploited. I do not endorse strip clubs.

My point was that some of the same women who told us about the reality of the lives of strip club workers, also told us that before they worked in them, or knew people who worked in them, they didn't think they were that bad.

Therefore it seems fair to deduce that there are plenty of other people (ie strip club users, who don't think they are that bad, and are not fully aware of the exploitation issues, blinded by the fact they are legal and ostensibly the women are free to work there or not work there as they wish.

I do agree that it is another issue when people become aware of all the behind-the-scenes exploitation and continue to use strip clubs anyway. However, I would probably hazard this could often be due to weakness of character rather than inherent I-love-to-see-women-being-exploited stuff.

Now your point about it being ok for others to work there is s good one because it becomes an impersonal thing, I'm not directly affected by it so it doesn't make me think like that. So yes, in that respect I have opened my eyes a little and I see where you are coming from

it's a start

river: sorry, got it wrong. I agree with you that some people probably do think they're ok but I'm probably tougher on you about 'weakness of character'. Once faced with the reality of strip clubs, it takes someone pretty stubborn or plain creepy to continue to insist on their right to go to them.

"My DP's uncle used to be a stripper, and he has had women trying to practically molest him when he performed. But because it's 'all a larf' on a girl's night out, it's different right"

Oh for god's sake - poor bloke, what a shock for him!!!! Perhaps he could sue them or go for unfair dismissal?? Did he ever consider changing jobs?!

Please - there has been a lot of bullshit on this thread but that just about takes the first prize.

I knew someone once who worked as a 'high class call girl' (whatever that means). She made a ton of money - was very attractive and intelligent. She did it for the money. If anyone was being stupid and exploited, it was the men who paid for her time and whatever else she bestowed on them.

Maybe she was an exception, but there are some people who work in the sex industry who presumably do have other choices (especially in this country where we have a state welfare system) who elect to do it because it suits them - the pay/hours etc.

Anyone who thinks strip clubs are harmless fun needs to pull their head out. Read David Sherman's testimony before the Ohio State Judiciary Committee. Sherman spent 14 years managing strip clubs before he left the industry. RobF and notsoniceguy don't care about women but they need to be reminded that they're contributing to organized crime - drug trafficking, money laundering, tax evasion, gang activity, police corruption - you name it, it's there.

One more thing - I've read this thread from the beginning and the thing that's stayed with me is what sm2k posted upthread:

7. Lastly, maybe what he enjoyed was just the uncomplicated nature of it all. Pay money, receive dance. That's a whole lot simpler than the complex day-to-day transactions of a relationship, perhaps he just enjoyed this straightforward aspect of it and this led him to pay for a second and third. I am sure that some of you will consider that the worst sin of all (lack of respect etc etc) but don't we all want something selfishly simple at times?

That's the fundamental reason many men use sex workers - they don't like women, plain and simple.

Errrmmm tadpoles, I was trying to make the point that it happens from both sides. And no, he didn't get another job.Why? Because, like female lapdancers, he was making a lot of money out of delusional women who he pretended to fancy, and they paid him for the privilege.

I personallydon't agree with strip clubs/strippers, male or female, because I think that reducing someone to nothing more than genitalia is not ok, regardless of their sex.

So you can shove your 'bullshit' remark thanks!

Hate to say it, but I think threaders has been bullied a tiny bit

He probably isn't a terrible bloke just because he has entered a strip joint. Thousands of men do it every day and some of us may be married to them.(thankfully not me though!)

I really think men don't overthink this or consider the girls to be 'victims'.

In my opinion I dont think the majority of women do it cos they have no choice. It's very sad but unfortunately lots of young, attractive women are probably queuing up to to do this kind of work or glamour modelling etc. Some women like to use their looks and body to their advantage and I guess they like the idea that that men are falling all over themselves to get near to them. I don't think we are going to change that. It's the way our society has become. Sex sells.

Look at all the girls that glam themselves up every night to gain access to top London clubs to bag a footballer. I am sure many of them would be up for performing a lapdance if it got them a bit of attention.

I guess many women who lap dance know they are attractive and they can use it to their advantage to mug some idiot bloke out of his cash. Iam not saying I think this is ok, but I think it's way different to a single mother who may have no choice. I don't think any 'down and out' woman with no other option would get a job at a top club. I bet there is a massive waiting list for jobs at Stringfellows.

As for it being your own daughter, well its just yuck, but I guess most of the young, single blokes who go to lapdancing clubs on stag nights etc don't have daughters. The thought that one day they might have daughters is not something they are going to be thinking about is it.

Its the married men and those who have children who frequent these places that are the worst. They are eyeing up women half their age(probably their daughters age) and that's creepy.

carmanelectra - thank you for even attempting to see it from the other perspective. You raise a good point towards the end of your post, and I'd just like to clarify that I've never been into a strip club since my daughter was born. Not for that reason, although now listening to some of the experiences of others on this thread, it quite possibly would be for that very reason in the future.

Like I said, I've never really seen it from behind the scenes, I've only got my own personal experiences to fall back on, and those of the girl I was seeing quite some time ago who clearly didn't have the same sordid experience of working in these places as some of the posters on here. I never expected to be shot down and ridiculed just for offering my own first hand account, and Jesus I'll think twice about doing it again on this forum. Which is a shame really, as there's always 2 sides to a story.

Linking lapdancing bars to organised crime is a bit of a strange point, because almost any business can be tenuously link to crime these days. I started off arguing against men being "pathetic" for going to these places, and that then snowballs into arguing against funding human trafficking....?

Anyway, I never meant to offend anybody on here, so if I did then it was purely by accident and I apologise for it. But please, don't tell me what my opinion should be - I'm entitled to reason my argument without being called all kinds of names. And in any case, you win considering I accept that I've been forced to look at this whole thing from an angle I otherwise perhaps wouldn't have. So Mumsnet 1, Threaders 0.

As much as i love mumsnet, you can never win an argument

I got ripped apart a couple of months ago for daring to want to go on holiday when i had debts to pay off

As for the lapdancing argument though. Although I disaprove of men going behind partners backs(presuming they don't like it) and going for a thrill, making their partner feel inadequate etc, i don't really have much of a moral opinion.

Maybe i just don't have enough knowledge surrounding the industry. However, personally I object to factory farming and I am a vegetarian, but No one would know as I don't try and covert people to my way of thinking. A Lot of people on mumsnet though seem to think that if they shout someone down long enough then they will change their opinion